Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Bharring wrote:
I think the conflation comes from "are reinforcements" and "as reinforcements". The guys bailing out of the serpent "are reinforcements", but they aren't disembarking because of, as per, or "as" reinforcements. The DPA dudes are set up as per Disembark, "as per" Reinforcements, under the DPA rule.

Time is a factor. The difference is that the DPA disembark happens as per the DPA rule, and during the execution of the DPA rule. The Serpent guys disembarking does not happen during or as per the WWP rule.

It is consistent treating them differently, because that they're disembarking isn't relevant. The ones from the DPA are being set up per DPA. The ones from the Serpent aren't being sset up per WWP.

But we have people telling us that they don't have to be mutually exclusive. If they're reinforcements at the end of deployment, then when they are set up they would be set up as reinforcements, whichever rule the use to be set up on the board. We aren't ever told their status changed before they disembarked, you would have to provide a rule that states when and how their status changed. Your explanation is not providing the rules that state their status changes.

Set up "as reinforcements" isn't a status on the unit, it's a modifier on the action of setting up.

The units are reinforcements. To set up reinformcents, you need a rule to set them up - Disembarking works. But to set up *as* reinforcements, you need a rule to set them up that counts as Reinforcements. Units set up by DPA are set as Reinforcements. Units set up by WWP are set up as Reinforcements. Units that are reinforcements, but are set up without using a Reinforcement rule are not set up as Reinforcements.

A unit "set up as Reinforcements" is about if the 'set up' is Reinforcements, no the unit is 'Reinforcements', per grammatical rules of English.

If it were "Reinforcements set up", you'd have a point.

Bharring wrote:
Set up "as reinforcements" isn't a status on the unit, it's a modifier on the action of setting up.

The units are reinforcements. To set up reinformcents, you need a rule to set them up - Disembarking works. But to set up *as* reinforcements, you need a rule to set them up that counts as Reinforcements. Units set up by DPA are set as Reinforcements. Units set up by WWP are set up as Reinforcements. Units that are reinforcements, but are set up without using a Reinforcement rule are not set up as Reinforcements.

A unit "set up as Reinforcements" is about if the 'set up' is Reinforcements, no the unit is 'Reinforcements', per grammatical rules of English.

If it were "Reinforcements set up", you'd have a point.

Rules quote for your assertion, please. I have a sidebar on Refinforcements that labels them Reinforcements - they're not on the board at the start, they come on the board mid-turn. Common English says that units that are reinforcements that are set up as reinforcements as they are reinforcements. They aren't set up as non-reinforcements. Anything put into reinfofcements would have the reinforcements rules saying that when they are set up, they are set up as reinforcements.

If a cop goes into a bar to get a drink, he doesn't go into the bar as a cop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do you have a rules quote for how "As Reinforcements" is a game term outside standard english grammar?

Bharring wrote:
If a cop goes into a bar to get a drink, he doesn't go into the bar as a cop.

Really? They often go in as cops, especially if it's a cop bar. But,your analogy runs afoul of the Tenets of YMDC - trying to use real world examples.

Bharring wrote:
IAutomatically Appended Next Post:
Do you have a rules quote for how "As Reinforcements" is a game term outside standard english grammar?

I have what they say for Reinforcements in the Battle Primer.

I wasn't using a realworld example. I was using a gramatical example.

A clause of the structure '[item] that [action] as [attribute]' means that the [attribute] modifies the [action]. I wasn't referring to the cop. Going in for a drink to a cop bar is a real world example. A cop going in for a drink not going in as a cop is a gramatical example.

The rules of grammar must be leveraged. Otherwise, we can't even parse a sentence.

The fallacy though is that anything that's set up that's coming in from reinforcements is being set up as a refinforcement. You haven't shown how them being classified as a reinforcement at the start doesn't mean they get set up as reinforcements when they are set up. The cop analogy doesn't quite apply here.

You haven't shown how they are set up as reinforcements.

The argument that DPA units are reinforcements is because DPA sets them up, DPA is a reinforcement rule, and the units are reinforcements.

The Cloud Strike embarked units aren't set up by Cloud Strike. Cloud strike is a reinforcement rule, and the embarked units are reinforcements, but Cloud Strike is not involved in setting the unit up.

Again, the unit must be 'set up *as* reinforcements'. Not 'reinfocrements set up'. It is the set up, not the unit, that differs.

Units embarked in a transport that is setup on the battlefield are set up on the battlefield themselves as well, even though they are embarked.

An unit embarked in a falcon or wave serpent that is set up via cloudstrike means both units a single deployment choice and both are in reinforcements by not being setup to the table during deployment.

The matched play tactical reserves rule states units not setup to the tablr during deployment are reinforcements, the unit in the drop pod or wave serpent are not setup to the table- they are by the rules as written reinforcements.

An unit setup with a drop pod via drop pod assault are a single deployment choice and are both in reinforcements by not being set up to the table during deployment.

In either of the above cases when the falcon/wave serpent is setup to the table from reinforcements the unit inside is also setup to the table as reinforcements, however they are embarked and not required to disembark. Theybareived that turn as reinforcements just as their transport did.

The same is the case for an unit in a drop pod, although drop pod assault requires the unit to disembark making it an eligible target.

Following turns none of the units listed above are reinforcements.

An unit embarked in a transport was still in reinforcements at the start of the turn the turn it is setup from reinforcements. Even embarked it is setup on the table legs pee the RAW for embarked units being deployed(see rulebook and designers commentary FAQ on deployment and transports)

As such the unit in the falcon/ wave serpent is no longer in reinforcements just as the you it which was forced to disembark would no longer be in reinforcements, just as both transports would no longer be in reinforcements after they are setup on the table.

Setting up a unit and arriving from reinforcements are not status flags that stick to a unit for a certain period of time, but actual distinct events. You set up a unit while You are placing models on the table. If they were in reinforcements before you are setting up from there, if you were in a transport you are setting up.from there etc.

But, putting aside my disagreement for a minute- let us assume you are correct.
You could still not use auspex scan etc. against drop pod or the disembarking unit due to the timing restrictions:
1. Drop pod and unit arrive together from reinforcements. The drop pod unit is still embarked but the pod is placed on the tavle
2. You need to use the stratagem now, but the unit must disembark immediately. Also the SM player is active and can resolve this timing conflict as he likes.
3. The unit disembarkes. Note that disembarking this is mandated by the drop pod assault rule, it is not actually part of arriving from reinforcements. Drop pod assault clearly states "after". Check out the trigon rules where the units clearly arrive together for contrast. Those unit explicitly arrive and set up together
4. The time for using the stratagem has passed ("immediately after") and therefore cannot be used

So no matter who is fundamentally right, the result is the same. I guess that makes the argument itself pointless

Either way, we did not see a ruling in the new FAQ. This hasn't come up in game yet luckily, but my personal "narrative view" tells me that the valid target should be:
Drop pod - yes
Unit - no

Johnbox24 wrote:
Setting up a unit and arriving from reinforcements are not status flags that stick to a unit for a certain period of time, but actual distinct events. You set up a unit while You are placing models on the table. If they were in reinforcements before you are setting up from there, if you were in a transport you are setting up.from there etc.

But, putting aside my disagreement for a minute- let us assume you are correct.
You could still not use auspex scan etc. against drop pod or the disembarking unit due to the timing restrictions:
1. Drop pod and unit arrive together from reinforcements. The drop pod unit is still embarked but the pod is placed on the tavle
2. You need to use the stratagem now, but the unit must disembark immediately. Also the SM player is active and can resolve this timing conflict as he likes.
3. The unit disembarkes. Note that disembarking this is mandated by the drop pod assault rule, it is not actually part of arriving from reinforcements. Drop pod assault clearly states "after". Check out the trigon rules where the units clearly arrive together for contrast. Those unit explicitly arrive and set up together
4. The time for using the stratagem has passed ("immediately after") and therefore cannot be used

So no matter who is fundamentally right, the result is the same. I guess that makes the argument itself pointless

Either way, we did not see a ruling in the new FAQ. This hasn't come up in game yet luckily, but my personal "narrative view" tells me that the valid target should be:
Drop pod - yes
Unit - no

Both units are set up in reinforcements.

From auspex scan:

Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within 12"of one of your ADEPTUSASTARTES Infantry units

From drop pod assault:

Any models embarked inside must immediately disembark, but they must be setup more than 9" away from any enemy models. Any models that cannot be setup because there is not enough room are slain.

Note the bolded part of the quotes. The rules for drop pod assault specifically call out the unit is setup after disembarking from the drop pod.

the unit is setup on the table after it disembarks. The unit did arrive that turn from reinforcements as it was in reinforcements at the beginning of the turn.

RAW an unit disembarking from a drop pod is setup on the table, it has arrived from reinforcements that movement phase. It is an eligible target for auspex scan. The correct time to use the stratagem is when the unit is setup, which is after it disembarks per the rules for drop pod assault.

The unit did arrive that turn from reinforcements as it was in reinforcements at the beginning of the turn. 

And this is exactly where I disagree with your opinion. "Arriving from reinforcements" does not "last one turn" but is an exact point in time. In the drop pod example that point in time is while the unit is still embarked.

The rules for drop pod assault specifically call out the unit is setup after disembarking.

The unit has not arrived from reinforcements to the table until it is setup, and in the case of drop pod assault that is by being setup on the table not by being embarked per the RAW- as drop pod assault specifically calls out the unit being setup within 9" of the transport as quoted above.

This is not an opinion, those are the actual written rules.

Setting the units on the table does not mean that they are reinforcements. If that was the case, all units that disembark would be reinforcements - which is absurd in my view.

The models are disembarking from a transport. The DPA rule clearly states this. We need to use the disembarking rules - which is covered on page 183. No mention of reinforcements at all, but it does say that all models are set up on the board. Your argument would have a stronger standing if your position is that any disembarking units count as reinforcements, but your trying to tell us that they are reinforcements because they disembarked right away... and disembarking rules say nothing about that. Since the DPA rule clearly states they are a disembarking from a dedicated transport we need to apply the disembarking rules, and stop applying other rules that might kinda seem to apply. Problem is that the BRB doesn't tell us to use them.

One other important factor. Remember that we are talking about two different units. The Drop Pod is the unit that arrives on the table, and then the unit of whatever the DP is transporting. They are not one in the same.

And we're back to where does it state that applying Disembarking rules means we're not applying DPA rules?

Further, if you're applying Disembarking rules and not DPA rules while setting up the unit, they cannot be placed, as they cannot disembark on the turn they arrived. So, because you could not place them, per DPA, they are removed as casualties.

DPA tells you to use Disembarking rules. But you're using DPA while you're using Disembarking. Both rules are part of setting up the unit. Thus, they are using DPA to set up. Thus, as reinforcements.

Where, in the rules, does it state that Disembarking units are not being set up as per DPA?

"Further, if you're applying Disembarking rules and not DPA rules while setting up the unit, they cannot be placed, as they cannot disembark on the turn they arrived"

So, you get to the crux of this with your statement here. You admit here that when they arrive, they are still in the drop pod. They don't disembark until after the drop pod arrives. Therefore, when they disembark, they are disembarking at a point where from where they have already arrived before. It doesn't matter if it's "immediately" or next turn. It doesn't matter if it's Drop Pod Assault that lets them disembark that turn; when they arrive they are in the drop pod, and that's the only time you could shoot them as arriving from reserves. Once the drop pod hits the table, they are not in reserves any more, they are in a transport which is on the table.

Immediately after your shooting attack is after I roll my saves. Not immediately after you roll to attack.

Immediately after is after the rule is resolved. Disembarking is part of resolving DPA.

Besides, the wording is immediately after "... set up as reinforcements...". Even if they arrived on the table in the first part of the rule, they are still set up 'as reinforcements' during the second part of the DPA rule.

It could be argued that you must interupt the DPA rule to be 'immediately after'. In that case, you're still able to do it immediately after they are 'set up as reinforcements'. The only argument there is are they 'as reinforcements'. If they're set up as DPA, they are set up as reinforcements. And they are set up as disembarking as DPA. Therefore, you can act immediately if that were the rules.

If the rules mean that 'immediately after' means immediately after the rule that sets them up (DPA), you're still fine. The last step is setting up that unit, so when you act you're immediately after (the pod could be argued here, though).

So regardless of whether 'immediately after' is after you finish with the act that sets them up or 'immediately after' the last model is physically placed, they are still legal targets.

(As an aside, the reading that says 'immediately after' must be as soon as the last model is placed, it would mean anything 'immediately after' a unit shoots would have to be before save rolls or FnP rolls.)

The DPA rule itself converts the models from not being deployed on the board to being set up on the board. The DPA rule is a Reinforcements rule. The set up happens as part of the DPA rule. 'As reinforcements' modifies 'sets up', not the unit.

After is not the same as "the time as". There is a discrete difference.

The drop pod landing converts the passengers from being reinforcements to just being passengers. Otherwise, pasengers in a wave serpent would still be reinforcements despite disembarking from a cloud striking wave serpent on a different turn from when it arrived.

 doctortom wrote:
"Further, if you're applying Disembarking rules and not DPA rules while setting up the unit, they cannot be placed, as they cannot disembark on the turn they arrived"

So, you get to the crux of this with your statement here. You admit here that when they arrive, they are still in the drop pod. They don't disembark until after the drop pod arrives. Therefore, when they disembark, they are disembarking at a point where from where they have already arrived before. It doesn't matter if it's "immediately" or next turn. It doesn't matter if it's Drop Pod Assault that lets them disembark that turn; when they arrive they are in the drop pod, and that's the only time you could shoot them as arriving from reserves. Once the drop pod hits the table, they are not in reserves any more, they are in a transport which is on the table.

And you hit the Crux of the argument, the drop pod rules modify the normal rules for disembarking. Drop pod assault happens at the end of the movement phase, so the unit disembarking cannot move unlike a normal disembark. Additionally drop pod assault allows models to disembark after the transport moved, as the drop pod counts as moving if it comes from reinforcements. And the most important part.

The rules for drop pod call out the unit is setup 9" from the drop pod. The unit has arrived from reinforcements and is setup on the table which is the trigger for auspex scan. Which people keep ignoring by sticking their head in the sand and say but disembark means it was in the vehicle. The rules are satisfied by an unit arriving as reinfrocements immediately after it is setup. An unit disembarking from a drop pod is arriving as reinforcements and the drop pod rule calls out that setting the unit up x" from the drop pod is setting it up. That is a completely valid time then use auspex scan. No one is trying to shoot the unit before it disembarks because it is not set up at that point if you follow the rules for drop pod assault which says it is setup when it is placed disembarked from the drop pod.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:
After is not the same as "the time as". There is a discrete difference.

The drop pod landing converts the passengers from being reinforcements to just being passengers. Otherwise, pasengers in a wave serpent would still be reinforcements despite disembarking from a cloud striking wave serpent on a different turn from when it arrived.

This isn't true as they don't follow the normal rules for disembarking, if they did then RAW they would not be able to disembark from the drop pod as it counts as moving when coming from reinforcements.