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Hmm a 10 man unit of Devastators with 9 plasma cannons and 1 combi-plasma costs 355 pts...
Devastator squads can only have up to 4 heavy weapons.
Which means two 5 man squads with 8 hvy plasma and two combi plasma. Which then means you can only affect 5 of your 10 plasma weapons with Dark Age strategem vs all 10 in a max hellblaster squad.
Not a clear winner between the two since devs have better # shots at longer range (around 16-18 vs 10) but less durable, less optimal for Dark Age Weapons, and less mobile. Probably comes down to what else is in your list.
Hmm a 10 man unit of Devastators with 9 plasma cannons and 1 combi-plasma costs 355 pts...
Devastator squads can only have up to 4 heavy weapons.
Which means two 5 man squads with 8 hvy plasma and two combi plasma. Which then means you can only affect 5 of your 10 plasma weapons with Dark Age strategem vs all 10 in a max hellblaster squad.
Not a clear winner between the two since devs have better # shots at longer range (around 16-18 vs 10) but less durable, less optimal for Dark Age Weapons, and less mobile. Probably comes down to what else is in your list.
Oh for some reason I thought you could give heavy weapons to the whole squad barring the Sergeant. It makes for an even less appealing choice to me, and it requires two Heavy Support choices, which may or may not be a problem. It's one more deployment too, and yes the Stratagem will apply to less Marines at once, and since you can split fire everything it should never be wasted to use it on 10 guys.
anticitizen013 wrote: Thoughts on scouts? They are nice and cheap (or kinda expensive based on equipment), but with their deployment rules, they can probably get some pretty decent mileage out of Grim Resolve. Plus if you deploy them well (with >1 unit), you can block off most of the board from deep strikes. Still need to worry about things like a Swarmlord/Genestealer rush though.
Scouts are one of the best Troops in the game and they benefit the most from Grim Resolve. I'll probably include a few in every list, with a few heavy bolters and missile launchers for the hellfire shells and flakk missile strategems.
Against tyranids they're an asset not a liability. They block off deep strike and can act as speed bumps giving you another turn of shooting.
anticitizen013 wrote: Thoughts on scouts? They are nice and cheap (or kinda expensive based on equipment), but with their deployment rules, they can probably get some pretty decent mileage out of Grim Resolve. Plus if you deploy them well (with >1 unit), you can block off most of the board from deep strikes. Still need to worry about things like a Swarmlord/Genestealer rush though.
Scouts are one of the best Troops in the game and they benefit the most from Grim Resolve. I'll probably include a few in every list, with a few heavy bolters and missile launchers for the hellfire shells and flakk missile strategems.
Against tyranids they're an asset not a liability. They block off deep strike and can act as speed bumps giving you another turn of shooting.
This. Scouts are one of the best units in the codex. Concealed Positions is fantastic. Space Marines don't have cheap screens, so you need scouts to protect your expensive units from deep strikes. I would never play Space Marines with less than 3 units of scouts. I would even use 6 of them in a competitive list. Never buy the camo cloaks. They are completely overpriced. I would run them with boltguns and a heavy bolter (one or two units can take a missile launcher instead) in an DA army.
Zustiur wrote:Here's my first analysis of scouts. Critique very welcome.
Scout Squad Advantages: • Cheapest troops unit at 55 points • Can deploy virtually anywhere, allowing ○ Deployment on objectives ○ Deployment as a forward screen ○ Deployment 9" from a unit you want to assault • Objective secured AND infiltrate combined to prevent first turn midfield objective grabs • Small bases, and therefore small footprint allowing deployment into terrain that might be too small for other units • Option for shotguns • Option for sniper rifles • Option for pistol and blade, while being objective secured I have deliberately excluded camo cloaks from the list of advantages because it's no better than having power armour in cover instead. Additionally, the cost makes them more expensive than having power armour in the first place. For forward screening, no unit in our codex does it better. For side screening, Company veterans are cheaper.
If we rule out camo cloaks, what wargear do we chose? That depends on what role you want to set them, and you MUST select a role. Are they a screen in front of your army? Keep them cheap. Are they a screen for your flanks in a castle deployment/aura focussed army? Sniper rifles for the range. Are they to tie up enemy units in combat? Pistol and blade, or possibly shotgun for S5 goodness. Are they to sit on mid-field objectives and stay put? Bolters for the range. Heavy weapons should only be for units which are not screens and are not far forward. Otherwise they'll die too quickly. A heavy bolter may be tempting, but you've just pushed up from 55 to 63 points, entering Tactical Squad territory. Be truthful with yourself about how likely they are to die in the first turn or two. Heavy weapons in a sniper unit are also very tempting as they'll be near your back line anyway, but you pay a lot for it, and reduce your sniping power in the process. If you bought snipers, don't you want to maximise the potential for those mortal wounds on characters?
Shotguns vs pistol and blade. If you get close enough, such as deploying 9" away then moving, you have the S5 of shotguns to work with. Against T4 and T8, that's an advantage for sure. 10 shots wounding on 3s instead of 4s or 5s instead of 6s. The rest of the time, the pistol and blade gets you a shot, and two close combat attacks instead of 1, with a potential extra shot in later rounds.
Overall, I think the best options are: Pistol and Sword for harassment of the enemy line. Bolters for midfield objective holding Snipers for backfield/flank screening.
Thanks to all for the responses. I feel the same about scouts. They are fantastic and having that ability to deploy pretty much anywhere during the deployment phase is incredibly potent (much better than the Alpha Legion and Raven Guard strategems, for example). I suppose I never really looked at how expensive camo cloaks really are. For a unit of 5 thats an extra 15 points. If you have multiple units of scouts, that adds up real fast, and really if you're just using them as a block/speedbump, you don't want them to be expensive anyway.
I just bought a bunch of Scion heads because while the scout models are good, their heads are absolutely atrocious and need to be replaced. The Scion ones are amazing and look super cool on them too. They were a good price too! Jackpot!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/11 15:19:32
I'm a little surprised Black knights haven't gotten more love on the plasma front. They're certainly more expensive per model, but they're much easier to position for quality shots than devastators and Hellblasters. They're also useful in combat after they murder something in the shooting phase. They're worth a try!
I think I just peed a little when I thought about Asmodai + Ancient + 10 Vets with chainswords in a redeemer. 50 attacks and rerollable hits. Throw in a few special weapons and you have a truly deadly unit.
Aeri wrote: I think I just peed a little when I thought about Asmodai + Ancient + 10 Vets with chainswords in a redeemer. 50 attacks and rerollable hits. Throw in a few special weapons and you have a truly deadly unit.
If you want to get a little silly:
Asmodai
Company Champion
Vet Squad - Sgt (TH/SS), 4x Vets Bolter/Chainsword
Vet Squad - Sgt (TH/SS), 4x Vets Bolter/Chainsword
Vet Squad - Sgt (TH/SS), 3x Vets Bolter/Chainsword
Packed into a Crusader.
Drive up, pile out and unload with the bolters, then charge and start mauling units.
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
No, but neither does the ancient in the previous example. The champion provides a bit more punch with 4x S7 AP-3 Dd3 attacks at a 2+. If you want to save a few points, you can swap him with another vet, but at this many points invested already, meh.
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
So, is it possible to have a solid TAC pure Dark Angels list at 2000 pts or not ? Or should we specialise in a few fields while having a weakness in others ? I feel like a TAC list fails to deliver in 8th, because everything can die so quickly, your dedicated units die too early to fill their role and so you have to run the rest of the game without a critical part of your army just because you didn't invested enough points in that role for the benefit of the others.
Keep in mind I've never played Space Marines, so my experience with them is limited to the reading of the SM codex and Index a few times. With that in mind, every list needs at least:
- Anti-horde, be it blobs of GEQ or Brimstones, we need something to tear through the bubble-wrap so that our DW can go to their targets. What could do this ? Heavy bolters Devastators ? Land Speeders, other vehicles ? Primaris Inceptors look really interesting since chapter approved, they've dropped from 60 to 45 pts each, so with a squad of three you get 18 24" S5 AP-1 D1 that can deepstrike right where you need them to be, and charge/disengage to avoid getting shot with a little luck, dealing a few mortal wounds in the process;
- Anti-vehicle/monster, AKA S7+ weapons, preferably with a good AP. At range, once again, Devastators with missile launchers, lascannons or plasma cannons should do the job. Hellblasters looks like a good option, and a max squad can use the stratagem very efficiently. Razorbacks or Predators with lascannons perhaps ? Can we have melta/multi-meltas on bikes or Land Speeders ? These would make a good delivery system. In CC, we have Terminators, either with TH/SS, or the classic DW Knights. DW can be buffed by so many characters it's outrageous. Dreadnoughts are good too but don't they lack mobility ? Maybe transport them in a Flyer ?
- Psychic deniers/dealers, I've been traumatized by a Tzeentch list recently that almost single-handedly made me drop AdMech, so I'm thinking about this a lot. Luckily DA don't lack options, either with a classic Librarian or Ezekiel that is essentially a Librarian +1. We have also access to some pretty nice new powers, I'm thinking about Mind Worm or especially Righteous Repugnance, which our Knights will love, and could even allow us to place our special rerolling characters elsewhere maybe ? And having access to a 5 pts Watcher in the Dark to attempt a Deny the Witch on a 4+ is nice, because DW will be targeted by enemy Psykers most of the time.
Am I forgetting something ? What are your thoughts on this ?
Tagony wrote:Thanks Zerg, are you planning on running them in 10 or 5 man units?
If I make a list with Intercessors, I'll probably run 5 man units as cheap objective holders/surprisingly durable screen units. 10 men and morale starts to become a problem, although for DA I suppose that's not an issue at all. I need to pick up more models before I can really think about doing larger units, though. The other unit I'm looking at really is Inceptors for horde control/harassment. I need to pick up 3 more and run a full 6-man unit of those guys. I faced them with my Chaos army and they are really annoying, especially since they are cheaper now.
Aaranis wrote:So, is it possible to have a solid TAC pure Dark Angels list at 2000 pts or not ? Or should we specialise in a few fields while having a weakness in others ? I feel like a TAC list fails to deliver in 8th, because everything can die so quickly, your dedicated units die too early to fill their role and so you have to run the rest of the game without a critical part of your army just because you didn't invested enough points in that role for the benefit of the others.
Keep in mind I've never played Space Marines, so my experience with them is limited to the reading of the SM codex and Index a few times. With that in mind, every list needs at least:
- Anti-horde, be it blobs of GEQ or Brimstones, we need something to tear through the bubble-wrap so that our DW can go to their targets. What could do this ? Heavy bolters Devastators ? Land Speeders, other vehicles ? Primaris Inceptors look really interesting since chapter approved, they've dropped from 60 to 45 pts each, so with a squad of three you get 18 24" S5 AP-1 D1 that can deepstrike right where you need them to be, and charge/disengage to avoid getting shot with a little luck, dealing a few mortal wounds in the process;
- Anti-vehicle/monster, AKA S7+ weapons, preferably with a good AP. At range, once again, Devastators with missile launchers, lascannons or plasma cannons should do the job. Hellblasters looks like a good option, and a max squad can use the stratagem very efficiently. Razorbacks or Predators with lascannons perhaps ? Can we have melta/multi-meltas on bikes or Land Speeders ? These would make a good delivery system. In CC, we have Terminators, either with TH/SS, or the classic DW Knights. DW can be buffed by so many characters it's outrageous. Dreadnoughts are good too but don't they lack mobility ? Maybe transport them in a Flyer ?
- Psychic deniers/dealers, I've been traumatized by a Tzeentch list recently that almost single-handedly made me drop AdMech, so I'm thinking about this a lot. Luckily DA don't lack options, either with a classic Librarian or Ezekiel that is essentially a Librarian +1. We have also access to some pretty nice new powers, I'm thinking about Mind Worm or especially Righteous Repugnance, which our Knights will love, and could even allow us to place our special rerolling characters elsewhere maybe ? And having access to a 5 pts Watcher in the Dark to attempt a Deny the Witch on a 4+ is nice, because DW will be targeted by enemy Psykers most of the time.
Am I forgetting something ? What are your thoughts on this ?
For anti-horde, I think Inceptors are a solid choice (because ALL THE DAKKA!). I'm not impressed with heavy bolter devs. Yes they are very cheap, but not terribly durable and don't have a lot of other uses, whereas Inceptors can shoot up a horde and then charge something else for a chance to deal mortal wounds and they can punch surprisingly hard like all Primaris marines with their 2 attacks base. The best horde control for the points is probably still the ever-reliable Twin Assault Cannon Razorback, though. If you want something expensive and durable for this, maybe a Land Raider Crusader or even a Repulsor could work, or the Ravenwing Talonmaster.
For Anti-big stuff, Lascannon Devs do good work, as do Lascannon Razorbacks (still better than a Las Predator for points). I honestly think Dreads or Ven Dreads with Lascannons are still a decent option, as they can take a punchy weapon too as a charge deterrent. The Azrael Gunline might be nerfed due to the loss of the invul protection on vehicles, but it's probably still good. After all, the Bobby G gunline still works and it never had the invul save, and Azrael+Lieutenant is almost as good as Bobby, for 140 points less (post-CA).
For anti-psykers and throwing our own spells, Ezekiel is probably our best option, but even our regular Libbies are still solid. You can still take them on bikes from the Index as per that flowchart that GW posted. Zeke even came down in points, so he's a real bargain now.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
Danny slag wrote: If this the wrong spot to ask this, just yell. I haven't gotten hands on it. Can DA take land speeder storms and scout bikes? Or is that index only?
New codex definitely includes scout bikes, not 100% on storms. scout bikers don't count as Ravenwing though sadly.
"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
11,100 pts, 7,000 pts
++ Heed my words for I am the Herald and we are the footsteps of doom. Interlopers, do we name you. Defilers of our
sacred earth. We have awoken to your primative species and will not tolerate your presence. Ours is the way of logic,
of cold hard reason: your irrationality, your human disease has no place in the necrontyr. Flesh is weak.
Surrender to the machine incarnate. Surrender and die. ++
Tuagh wrote: If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.
So, on the note of plasma and the stratagem, where do you think a 6 man Inceptor unit fits into the rankings?
For 354 points, you get a deep striking, T5 unit that will put out (on average) 24 plasma shots on the turn they arrive at 18” range. They also, if needed, have an option of charging due to their mortal wound output and the FLY keyword for next turn.
Sure, the squad would cost 24 points more than a 10 man Hellblaster squad, but, they won’t get shot off the table before they do anything, and, will always have more shots than the Hellblasters until both squads lose 5 models (if Hellblasters can rapid fire, the shots equal out after losing 2 models each).
Support will cost a lot though, with Sammael and a Talonmaster for wound re-rolls, but, each time I think about using devs or Hellblasters I keep going back to using Azrael, an Ancient, an Apothecary and a Lieutenant, which costs almost as much and would then rely on the use of another stratagem if they got charged.
Black Knights in a unit of 10 with similar support costs even more than the Inceptors, but, will gain a 4++ vs shooting (so likely only 1 or 2 turns of use), but they also come with less shots and are prone to alpha strikes.
Good mileage per strat use, agreed, but is it the best bang for your buck? If I were to use Hellblasters at all, it'd be under Azrael's loving 4++ umbrella, so they'll presumably stick around a bit longer than Inceptors. Black knights allow for lots of maneuverability and are solid options in combat.
That said, I'm interested to see how the newly-reasonably priced Inceptors fit into our book. Clearing the path for DWK seems a likely role for them. I like the plasma drop idea, for sure, but it may be a challenge to get them hit rerolls for the reliability you'd want a gambit that expensive to have. What I'm really scratching my head about is whether they should replace DWT in my Deathwing force. I really like the DWT's combat ability, but their role for at least a turn is horde suppression. Inceptors are just straight better at that than Terminators.
MilkmanAl wrote: Good mileage per strat use, agreed, but is it the best bang for your buck? If I were to use Hellblasters at all, it'd be under Azrael's loving 4++ umbrella, so they'll presumably stick around a bit longer than Inceptors. Black knights allow for lots of maneuverability and are solid options in combat.
That said, I'm interested to see how the newly-reasonably priced Inceptors fit into our book. Clearing the path for DWK seems a likely role for them. I like the plasma drop idea, for sure, but it may be a challenge to get them hit rerolls for the reliability you'd want a gambit that expensive to have. What I'm really scratching my head about is whether they should replace DWT in my Deathwing force. I really like the DWT's combat ability, but their role for at least a turn is horde suppression. Inceptors are just straight better at that than Terminators.
Inceptors make their points back in the single turn of fire, they could easily die all by overheat and it still would be a good investment. One possible build for DA will be 3 units of plasma inceptors, one for each turn of game, every time coming down and blasting something. That's a perfect complement for terminator heavy lists.
MilkmanAl wrote: Good mileage per strat use, agreed, but is it the best bang for your buck? If I were to use Hellblasters at all, it'd be under Azrael's loving 4++ umbrella, so they'll presumably stick around a bit longer than Inceptors. Black knights allow for lots of maneuverability and are solid options in combat.
That said, I'm interested to see how the newly-reasonably priced Inceptors fit into our book. Clearing the path for DWK seems a likely role for them. I like the plasma drop idea, for sure, but it may be a challenge to get them hit rerolls for the reliability you'd want a gambit that expensive to have. What I'm really scratching my head about is whether they should replace DWT in my Deathwing force. I really like the DWT's combat ability, but their role for at least a turn is horde suppression. Inceptors are just straight better at that than Terminators.
It isn't cheap but you could Drop Pod Azreal to be near Inceptors. The issue with Helblasters is range, They are not going to be at optimal range for at least 2 turns, so while they may stick around longer, they may take a lot of damage prior to really being effective.
Something to consider for Inceptors if you want to keep it cheap is assuming DA get the same normal lieutenants, take a master and lieutenant with jump packs and you can get "cheap" re-rolls for your Inceptors, at least compared to Sammi and a talon master.
As for DWT with their stratagem I think they are better than inceptors for that first turn horde, though the inceptors are cheaper. With Stratagem they are getting 64-80 Stormbolter shots + heavy weapons vs 36 Shots from inceptors. Price wise though for that many terminators you could take 10 bolter inceptors so that would be 60 Heavy bolter shots. The issue with doing that is that they are less durable than the terminators, and worse in combat
By my math, you need ~23 overcharged shots to put down a Razorback and 48 to drop a Leman Russ. If you add rerolls, those numbers improve some, but I wouldn't count on them straight making up their points in 1 turn of shooting. That's not to say they aren't worthwhile, of course. I really, really like the idea of dropping them behind some DWKs for protection. In fact, I may have to make dropping a wall of DWK with Inceptors behind a standard practice. Whether it's for softening up a juicy target, blasting away screens, or both, I can see that being a really solid way to anchor a flank.
MilkmanAl wrote: By my math, you need ~23 overcharged shots to put down a Razorback and 48 to drop a Leman Russ. If you add rerolls, those numbers improve some, but I wouldn't count on them straight making up their points in 1 turn of shooting. That's not to say they aren't worthwhile, of course. I really, really like the idea of dropping them behind some DWKs for protection. In fact, I may have to make dropping a wall of DWK with Inceptors behind a standard practice. Whether it's for softening up a juicy target, blasting away screens, or both, I can see that being a really solid way to anchor a flank.
How are you calculating that? My math says that 10 shots without rerolls take down a razorback.
10 x 0,66 x 0,66 x 0,83 x 3= 10,84
12 shots on a Leman Russ:
12 x 0,66 x 0,5 x 0,83 x 3= 9,86 (11,5 if you reroll any kind of 1)
MilkmanAl wrote: By my math, you need ~23 overcharged shots to put down a Razorback and 48 to drop a Leman Russ. If you add rerolls, those numbers improve some, but I wouldn't count on them straight making up their points in 1 turn of shooting. That's not to say they aren't worthwhile, of course. I really, really like the idea of dropping them behind some DWKs for protection. In fact, I may have to make dropping a wall of DWK with Inceptors behind a standard practice. Whether it's for softening up a juicy target, blasting away screens, or both, I can see that being a really solid way to anchor a flank.
Yeah not really sure about your math.
A Leman Russ gets would get wounded on a 4+ and have a 6+ save. If every wound does 3 damage, it takes 4 successful wounds to kill the russ. The 6+ save means it will take ~5 wounds scored to get 4 through, the 4+ save means it will take 10 hits to get 5 wounds, or 15 shots (hitting on 3+). 6 Inceptors average 24 shots, so it is entirely possible to kill both a russ and a Razorback. That is without any re-rolls. Against T8 3+ save (so say a Stormsword) you are averaging 20 damage with no re-rolls Against T7 3+ save, you average 26.7 damage, so that is 2 razorbacks on average or 230 points (with a 350 point unit). So it will take high value targets to really make your points back quickly.
With re-rolls to hit, and re-roll 1s to wound against T8 3+ save you are averaging 31.1 damage. Against T7 3+ save you are averaging 41.5 damage. If you go first against say Magnus you average ~21 damage
Tagony wrote:Thanks Zerg, are you planning on running them in 10 or 5 man units?
If I make a list with Intercessors, I'll probably run 5 man units as cheap objective holders/surprisingly durable screen units. 10 men and morale starts to become a problem, although for DA I suppose that's not an issue at all. I need to pick up more models before I can really think about doing larger units, though. The other unit I'm looking at really is Inceptors for horde control/harassment. I need to pick up 3 more and run a full 6-man unit of those guys. I faced them with my Chaos army and they are really annoying, especially since they are cheaper now.
Aaranis wrote:So, is it possible to have a solid TAC pure Dark Angels list at 2000 pts or not ? Or should we specialise in a few fields while having a weakness in others ? I feel like a TAC list fails to deliver in 8th, because everything can die so quickly, your dedicated units die too early to fill their role and so you have to run the rest of the game without a critical part of your army just because you didn't invested enough points in that role for the benefit of the others.
Keep in mind I've never played Space Marines, so my experience with them is limited to the reading of the SM codex and Index a few times. With that in mind, every list needs at least:
- Anti-horde, be it blobs of GEQ or Brimstones, we need something to tear through the bubble-wrap so that our DW can go to their targets. What could do this ? Heavy bolters Devastators ? Land Speeders, other vehicles ? Primaris Inceptors look really interesting since chapter approved, they've dropped from 60 to 45 pts each, so with a squad of three you get 18 24" S5 AP-1 D1 that can deepstrike right where you need them to be, and charge/disengage to avoid getting shot with a little luck, dealing a few mortal wounds in the process;
- Anti-vehicle/monster, AKA S7+ weapons, preferably with a good AP. At range, once again, Devastators with missile launchers, lascannons or plasma cannons should do the job. Hellblasters looks like a good option, and a max squad can use the stratagem very efficiently. Razorbacks or Predators with lascannons perhaps ? Can we have melta/multi-meltas on bikes or Land Speeders ? These would make a good delivery system. In CC, we have Terminators, either with TH/SS, or the classic DW Knights. DW can be buffed by so many characters it's outrageous. Dreadnoughts are good too but don't they lack mobility ? Maybe transport them in a Flyer ?
- Psychic deniers/dealers, I've been traumatized by a Tzeentch list recently that almost single-handedly made me drop AdMech, so I'm thinking about this a lot. Luckily DA don't lack options, either with a classic Librarian or Ezekiel that is essentially a Librarian +1. We have also access to some pretty nice new powers, I'm thinking about Mind Worm or especially Righteous Repugnance, which our Knights will love, and could even allow us to place our special rerolling characters elsewhere maybe ? And having access to a 5 pts Watcher in the Dark to attempt a Deny the Witch on a 4+ is nice, because DW will be targeted by enemy Psykers most of the time.
Am I forgetting something ? What are your thoughts on this ?
For anti-horde, I think Inceptors are a solid choice (because ALL THE DAKKA!). I'm not impressed with heavy bolter devs. Yes they are very cheap, but not terribly durable and don't have a lot of other uses, whereas Inceptors can shoot up a horde and then charge something else for a chance to deal mortal wounds and they can punch surprisingly hard like all Primaris marines with their 2 attacks base. The best horde control for the points is probably still the ever-reliable Twin Assault Cannon Razorback, though. If you want something expensive and durable for this, maybe a Land Raider Crusader or even a Repulsor could work, or the Ravenwing Talonmaster.
For Anti-big stuff, Lascannon Devs do good work, as do Lascannon Razorbacks (still better than a Las Predator for points). I honestly think Dreads or Ven Dreads with Lascannons are still a decent option, as they can take a punchy weapon too as a charge deterrent. The Azrael Gunline might be nerfed due to the loss of the invul protection on vehicles, but it's probably still good. After all, the Bobby G gunline still works and it never had the invul save, and Azrael+Lieutenant is almost as good as Bobby, for 140 points less (post-CA).
For anti-psykers and throwing our own spells, Ezekiel is probably our best option, but even our regular Libbies are still solid. You can still take them on bikes from the Index as per that flowchart that GW posted. Zeke even came down in points, so he's a real bargain now.
With regard to the horde, what about some stationary Aggressors?
StormLion wrote: With regard to the horde, what about some stationary Aggressors?
They're really interesting, for 162 pts you have 18 bolter shots + 3d6 S4 shots, at 18" and twice that when stationary. The only issue is they'll probably need either a transport or a short run to get to their targets, but considering they can Advance and shoot with no malus that's doable. Inceptors shoot at S5 AP-1 however, and can drop right in front of their targets turn one. I'd say the Aggressors are best used defensively to camp on an objective or something, than actively running to the enemy. If you have them transported they'll spend one turn in the Repulsor, another at single volley mode (due to the disembark) and then on the third turn they'll finally be able to rain down fire. It's a lot of time spent to make them worthwhile, and a dozen things can happen in the meantime where they could get shot or something. I'd play them defensively if I chose to run them in my list.
StormLion wrote: With regard to the horde, what about some stationary Aggressors?
They're really interesting, for 162 pts you have 18 bolter shots + 3d6 S4 shots, at 18" and twice that when stationary. The only issue is they'll probably need either a transport or a short run to get to their targets, but considering they can Advance and shoot with no malus that's doable. Inceptors shoot at S5 AP-1 however, and can drop right in front of their targets turn one. I'd say the Aggressors are best used defensively to camp on an objective or something, than actively running to the enemy. If you have them transported they'll spend one turn in the Repulsor, another at single volley mode (due to the disembark) and then on the third turn they'll finally be able to rain down fire. It's a lot of time spent to make them worthwhile, and a dozen things can happen in the meantime where they could get shot or something. I'd play them defensively if I chose to run them in my list.
Aggressors are much cheaper than that, 3 are 111 points. They are the most efficent anti-horde unit in the game.
11,100 pts, 
7,000 pts
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~1900 | Imperial Knights: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~3500 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1200 | Tyranids: 
~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: 
5300 | 
2800 | 
1600 | 
