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Could have sworn I read that in the index- well, I must have misremembered.

He literally is complaining about the Nova Charge and how it works.

...no? "the Nova profile is the only profile actually worth using on it, and the Riptide has to suffer a mortal wound just to have the option of using that profile"
IE the main point is the gun itself and that it's useless without the nova charge.

If you don't like Nova Charge being an automatic Mortal Wound? Well there's hope for you!
The Leman Russ Executioner Plasma Tank was changed to be less punishing for firing it as Overcharge.
However there's also the potential that nothing changes since, as mentioned, Armoured Sentinels still are instantly slain when they fire a Plasma Cannon overcharged.

Well, I sure hope so- the upcoming codex has a lot of issues to fix, the sheer uselessness of the might-as-well-be-a-paperweight riptide being one of them.

You know what Feel No Pain did back then, yeah?

And let's be completely honest here:
"Back in 7th", Vehicles that were way more expensive were garbage and things like Riptides were fantastic because of the whole Monster v Vehicle nonsense.
Let's also not pretend that the Riptide isn't getting a 2+ save base with a 5+ Invulnerable Save and the ability to pawn those lascannon, autocannon,bright/dark lance or whatever onto Drones.

Drones. Right. Drones, that everyone puts their low tier dakka into before firing lascannons at the priority target? Those things?

Also let's stop with the dramatic nonsense about Markerlights. They're far from "abysmal". You don't get to throw your BS up to ridiculous levels any more and you're actively required to put lights onto targets to get benefits.
Why do you think you should be able to just get the best stuff right off the bat?

I will not. Markerlights are, if now godawful, then at least heavily nerfed and it's affecting the entire tau arsenal in a huge way. I've already made a post about a minor improvement to the table that would make it good again- you don't need to let us have BS 2+ on everything for it to be workable. We just need markerlights that aren't half of them useless to us most of the time.

 SevenSeasOfRhye wrote:

Could have sworn I read that in the index- well, I must have misremembered.

Then go back and read the Index. Missile Pods are listed for Riptides and Broadsides both as they can take Drones that feature them.

He literally is complaining about the Nova Charge and how it works.

...no? "the Nova profile is the only profile actually worth using on it, and the Riptide has to suffer a mortal wound just to have the option of using that profile"
IE the main point is the gun itself and that it's useless without the nova charge.

You keep editing my posts to make it sound like there's no way that someone complaining about the fact that he needs to use the Nova profile to make the Ion Accelerator work is, in fact, also complaining about the way Nova Charge works.

If you don't like Nova Charge being an automatic Mortal Wound? Well there's hope for you!
The Leman Russ Executioner Plasma Tank was changed to be less punishing for firing it as Overcharge.
However there's also the potential that nothing changes since, as mentioned, Armoured Sentinels still are instantly slain when they fire a Plasma Cannon overcharged.

Well, I sure hope so- the upcoming codex has a lot of issues to fix, the sheer uselessness of the might-as-well-be-a-paperweight riptide being one of them.

Oh please. Just because it's not "points-effective" does not mean that it "might-as-well-be-a-paperweight".

You know what Feel No Pain did back then, yeah?

And let's be completely honest here:
"Back in 7th", Vehicles that were way more expensive were garbage and things like Riptides were fantastic because of the whole Monster v Vehicle nonsense.
Let's also not pretend that the Riptide isn't getting a 2+ save base with a 5+ Invulnerable Save and the ability to pawn those lascannon, autocannon,bright/dark lance or whatever onto Drones.

Drones. Right. Drones, that everyone puts their low tier dakka into before firing lascannons at the priority target? Those things?

You know all the garbage that people whined about with Commissars and Conscripts? How you can hide the Commissars behind the Conscripts and cover and prevent wounds from being placed onto them?

Put the Drones into cover or behind LOS blocking terrain. Keep them within range of the Riptide.

Also let's stop with the dramatic nonsense about Markerlights. They're far from "abysmal". You don't get to throw your BS up to ridiculous levels any more and you're actively required to put lights onto targets to get benefits.
Why do you think you should be able to just get the best stuff right off the bat?

I will not. Markerlights are, if now godawful, then at least heavily nerfed and it's affecting the entire tau arsenal in a huge way. I've already made a post about a minor improvement to the table that would make it good again- you don't need to let us habe BS 2+ on everything for it to be workable. We just need markerlights that aren't half of them useless to us most of the time.

You mean this trash?

1: Re-roll to hit rolls of 1
2: Fire missiles at normal BS
3: Ignore up to one penalty. A -2 would become a -1, and a -3 would become a -2, and so on.
4: +1 to hit
5: Ignore cover saves
6: Re-roll to wound rolls of 1

That's not a "minor improvement". That's a huge buff since 3+4 would stack to effectively make any Markerlight hits of 4 or higher be turning anything into anti-aircraft.
The Markerlight table, as it stands right now, allows for you to have graduated benefits and to prioritize targets. Once you get to 3 or higher(which is where you'll want things to be for the "Ballistic Suits" like Broadsides and Stormsurges), then you're looking at significant benefits.

I said elsewhere that if you want a real fix to the Markerlight system, then you need to do something to make Suits get more usage out of the Markerlight table than infantry. Making it so that Suits double the number of counters on the target is a far better solution than your nonsense.

I did go back and read it, I stand corrected.

You keep editing my posts to make it sound like there's no way that someone complaining about the fact that he needs to use the Nova profile to make the Ion Accelerator work is, in fact, also complaining about the way Nova Charge works.

I'm literally quoting the guy you quoted. I have not in any way, shape or form ever misquoted or edited any quote by you.

Put the Drones into cover or behind LOS blocking terrain. Keep them within range of the Riptide.

Only a viable tactic if you want to stand back all game long- and of course, with enough dedicated firepower coming your way, you're not likely to soak up more than one round's worth of shooting if even that.

That's not a "minor improvement". That's a huge buff since 3+4 would stack to effectively make any Markerlight hits of 4 or higher be turning anything into anti-aircraft.
The Markerlight table, as it stands right now, allows for you to have graduated benefits and to prioritize targets. Once you get to 3 or higher(which is where you'll want things to be for the "Ballistic Suits" like Broadsides and Stormsurges), then you're looking at significant benefits.

I said elsewhere that if you want a real fix to the Markerlight system, then you need to do something to make Suits get more usage out of the Markerlight table than infantry. Making it so that Suits double the number of counters on the target is a far better solution than your nonsense.

You keep getting hung up on that single point- which I maintain isn't even that bad. We can't spam lascannons or dark/bright lances. We have comparatively little in the heavy guns department because tau is about quality shooting. Which is why we need all the bonuses we can get, especially with most of our suits being costed into uselessness.

Let's have a quick look at the current markers:
1: Useful.
2: Almost always useless.
3: Useless more often than not.
4: Situational. Useless half the time.
5: Useful.

Three out of five are so situational that you can go several matches in a row without ever needing them. These are not good and useful bonuses. They're extremely situational. A pathetic +1 to hit and reroll 1s is the only thing guaranteed to help us. The current table is completely insufficient and in need of a serious buff. "Doubling the number of counters"? To what effect, when most of the table is useless to us most of the time?

Just to chip in my thoughts on the markerlights, yes the markerlight table IS one of the bigger issues whit tau.

1 mark is usefull and should stay as it is.
2 markers can be replaced as thouse missiles needs to be completely redesigned, and part of that redesign is to remove the BS nerf.
3 markers is handy but should be moved to 2 markers if it does not get an added dmg bonus.
4 markers is pointless and can be replaced by something that is actualy usefull.
5 markers is fine as is but should not be higer then 4 markers as it is.

1-3 marks is what moust enemy units will have and sutch thouse 1-3 marks must offer a valid and just increase in preformance for ALL units, as of now they do not.

What we have now is buffs that dont buff what needs to be buffed. to be lasermarked by the tau is ment to realy HURT you, not make you laugh

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
Just to chip in my thoughts on the markerlights, yes the markerlight table IS one of the bigger issues whit tau.

1 mark is usefull and should stay as it is.
2 markers can be replaced as thouse missiles needs to be completely redesigned, and part of that redesign is to remove the BS nerf.

No. Seeker Missiles have always been tied to Markerlights. The original Seeker Missile, IIRC(I no longer own that book sadly) required a Markerlight in order to even fire.

It's a highly sophisticated piece of kit, optimized to be laser-guided onto a target. The same thing goes for the Destroyer Missile.

3 markers is handy but should be moved to 2 markers if it does not get an added dmg bonus.

Why should you get an added damage bonus? Your "damage bonus" is the ability to ignore penalties for moving and firing Heavy classified weapons or Advancing and firing Assault classified weapons.

4 markers is pointless and can be replaced by something that is actualy usefull.

...
The ability to remove any bonus to saving throws for being in cover is "pointless"?
Look at a unit like Ratlings or SM Scouts who gain +2 to their saves for being in cover.
Your Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines(which you could advance and fire with no penalties...) are now forcing them to save on a 4+ instead of a 2+. You don't need a Rend to mess with that kind of stuff there.

5 markers is fine as is but should not be higer then 4 markers as it is.

5 Marks gets you +1BS. That's the "endgame" for Tau.
It lets you negate benefits like Alaitoc, Styiges, or Raven Guard at 12" or further out and/or it lets you hit more reliably with your weapons like Railguns against big beefy targets.

1-3 marks is what moust enemy units will have and sutch thouse 1-3 marks must offer a valid and just increase in preformance for ALL units, as of now they do not.

What we have now is buffs that dont buff what needs to be buffed. to be lasermarked by the tau is ment to realy HURT you, not make you laugh

What are you even talking about?

1-3 marks, even if "what most enemy units will have", can be buffed to be doubled thanks to the stratagem they just got in Chapter Approved.

And lets be honest here: if you want a genuine buff to Markerlights? You're taking a nerf too. They only roll to Hit, they don't need to Wound. There's no saving against a Markerlight hit.

I am confused about the fact that you guys are arguing with a dude who says that broadsides can't take missile pods. Doesn't seem too productive.

Just to be clear broadsides can take high-yield missile pods, and they are expensive for the points.

Tau's whole makerlight table wouldn't be so bad if there were not so many things that make shooting outside of 12" -1 to hit. Markerlights go from 4+ to 5+, which on a d6 is terrible. A significant portion of your army will need to be invested in markerlights to counteract the army wide debuff is -1 to hit. Eldar make these even worse, making markerlights hit on 6+ or unhittable with conceal/stategems


Most likely our codex is not going to buff our native BS to 3. We got the markerlight stratagem which helps, but I'm really hoping the take a solid look at the table.

Another thing that bugs me is besides the command re-roll, we have no way to fix our wounding rolls. So many times I ge the clutch hit to roll 1 on a wound or such. If markerlights are so good at making us hit the target, one would think they would be good at highlighting critical areas? Rerolling 1's to wound or something at 5 or 6 would also be nice...

liverscrew wrote:
I am confused about the fact that you guys are arguing with a dude who says that broadsides can't take missile pods. Doesn't seem too productive.

-Any Broadside Shas'ui or Shas'vre may replace their heavy rail rifle with two high-yield missile pods.
-Any Broadside Shas'ui or Shas'vre may replace both smart missile systems with two plasma rifles.
-Any Broadside Shas'ui or Shas'vre may take a seeker missile.
-Any Broadside Shas'ui or Shas'vre may take one item from the Support Systems list.

Your move, bud.
The Missile Pod in the unit entry is for the MV8 Missile Drones.
HYMPs are their own thing, being Heavy 4 S7 AP-1 D3 damage instead of Assault 2 S7 AP-1 D3 damage.

So the HYMP being heavy 4 makes it not be a missile pod? Do you only use it to shoot infantry then? The niche filled is exactly the same. Getting HYMP for your broadside is probably a better waste of points than putting missile pods on your commander.

liverscrew wrote:
So the HYMP being heavy 4 makes it not be a missile pod? Do you only use it to shoot infantry then? The niche filled is exactly the same. Getting HYMP for your broadside is probably a better waste of points than putting missile pods on your commander.

High-Yield Missile Pods are High-Yield Missile Pods.

You can try to argue semantics all you'd like but it doesn't change the fact that much like how an Exterminator Autocannon is its own thing HYMPs are considered their own thing. You don't buy 4x Missile Pods and then magically get a HYMP.

Actually, you're the one pointing out the "semantical" difference between HYMP and missile pod when they are usually considered functionally the same in the context of army composition and effectiveness.

And you're even painting people as being stupid because "missile pods come on the drone" when it's pretty obvious that they meant the HYMP which is a slightly more cost effective missile pod and fills exactly the same niche.

So, laying it out without "arguing semantics", if you absolutely need to take missile pods with you, you take them by not taking missile pods at all, because the HRR is even worse and you shouldn't waste that BS2+ on an underperforming weapon. And this is the general 8th edition consensus in various T'au related communities online.

That is the problem with 8th edition T'au. HYMP is the only viable source of missile pod like firepower, because T'au shoot like orks now and you need to compensate for the BS by bringing more dakka. And the only other weapon the broadside can equip has less shots and is therefore worse. Taking missile pods on commanders is less viable because they are the only ones who can profficiently wield the low shot high AP weapons sorely needed to deal with armor and tough targets. And the only other platforms that can carry missile pods and equivalents are crisis suits, broadsides or infantry turrets. And crisis suits generally also have better weapon options available to them, whereas infantry turrets are stupidly situational.

liverscrew wrote:
Actually, you're the one pointing out the "semantical" difference between HYMP and missile pod when they are usually considered functionally the same in the context of army composition and effectiveness.

And you're even painting people as being stupid because "missile pods come on the drone" when it's pretty obvious that they meant the HYMP which is a slightly more cost effective missile pod and fills exactly the same niche.

So, laying it out without "arguing semantics", if you absolutely need to take missile pods with you, you take them by not taking missile pods at all, because the HRR is even worse and you shouldn't waste that BS2+ on an underperforming weapon. And this is the general 8th edition consensus in various T'au related communities online.

That is the problem with 8th edition T'au. HYMP is the only viable source of missile pod like firepower, because T'au shoot like orks now and you need to compensate for the BS by bringing more dakka. And the only other weapon the broadside can equip has less shots and is therefore worse. Taking missile pods on commanders is less viable because they are the only ones who can profficiently wield the low shot high AP weapons sorely needed to deal with armor and tough targets. And the only other platforms that can carry missile pods and equivalents are crisis suits, broadsides or infantry turrets. And crisis suits generally also have better weapon options available to them, whereas infantry turrets are stupidly situational.

You sure you know the consensus from online Tau communities? Because the general consensus is that you NEVER take Broadsides, especially Missilesides, due to their costs (a single Missileside runs you almost 200 points a model), and if you must take a broadside, you take the HRR cause it at least fills a role Commanders and Crisis fundamentally cannot (long range, high strength, high AP, high damage shooting). If you need MP-like firepower, you take CIBs. Same strength (actually better on Overcharge), same AP, same damage when Overcharged, and more shots, for less points. Granted it only has half the range, but thanks to Manta Strike, 8" move, and Fly, that range isn't a huge issue. When you need medium-to-high strength, middling AP, D D3 shooting, you don't take MPs and certainly don't take HYMPs, you take CIBs, either on a Commander with ATS or in 3 man trip-CIB Crisis Teams (one of the two or three loadouts they use decently well). Broadsides in general are on the same level as Riptides (just a plain bad unit you should not include in your list), Missilesides are on the same level as Iontides (IE, the worst loadout choice on an already bad unit).

A possible fix (or part of one) for the skyray would be to give the Seekers two statlines, one for a single warhead mode, 1 hit with high strength, AP and damage (guaranteed damage would be nice, too. Limited use + random damage and needing markerlights to work is not a good combination), and one for a MIRV warhead mode, giving lots of hits at reduced strength, AP and damage (maybe 2D6 hits, S5, AP-1, D1 or something like that).

That allows the Skyray to act as anti-infantry support as well as anti-vehicle/monster, giving it a bit more versatility in its role.

Fluff wise the warhead is constructed in such a way that lots of individual warheads can act together forming a powerful shaped charge for anti-armour or break off and target a wider area at the cost of reduced armour penetration ability.

Honestly, I just want the Rail Gun to be scary again. Back when I started playing in 5th, the Rail Gun was THE anti-vehicle weapon. It was the one thing that could really scare Monoliths or Land Raiders. The fluff for it has always been amazing, the wake of the projectile's passing pulverizing the interior of a vehicle and scattering it out through the incongruous little exit hole left behind. In the fluff, Warhounds have gone down to a well placed shot from it once their shields are down.
So, what's the 8th edition version of this weapon that both in fluff, and on the tabletop ('til now), was the be all, end all, of anti-vehicular weapons? It's marginally more reliable than a Lascannon, with a tiny chance of doing a bit more damage.
Meanwhile, while you've got your slightly better Lascannon Rail Gun on a Hammerhead, for the same price your opponent has brought a Self-Propelled Quad-Lascannon, with two Twin-Lascannon sponsons and a Pintle-Mounted Lascannon.
Currently, the Rail Gun, the anti-vehicular terror of every edition up until now, is only accurately modeled if it's been heated up and softened, then bent to droop impotently.
Sure, vehicles are tougher now. I don't expect the Rail Gun to still be able to turn any given vehicle into a smoldering crater in a single turn, but while other AV weapons are relatively weaker against vehicles than they used to be, the Rail Gun has to have one of the greatest 7th to 8th power disparities of them all.

(Also, the Piranha going from slightly tougher than a Land Speeder to significantly squishier than one was just a kick in the teeth.)