Navy Superhornets confront Alien Invader

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**A Town Called Malus**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Space Shuttle, IIRC, does a max speed of Mach 25 on re-entry. Mach 61 would obviously be a lot faster, but is it faster enough that a more advanced form of thermal shielding couldn't protect something travelling at mach 61?

That maximum speed would be on the very edge of the atmosphere. Also, note what happens when the shuttle's heat shield has even a very small fault and comes in at the wrong angle.

**AlmightyWalrus**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The Space Shuttle, IIRC, does a max speed of Mach 25 on re-entry. Mach 61 would obviously be a lot faster, but is it faster enough that a more advanced form of thermal shielding couldn't protect something travelling at mach 61?

That maximum speed would be on the very edge of the atmosphere. Also, note what happens when the shuttle's heat shield has even a very small fault and comes in at the wrong angle.

Yes, it's pushing the edge, but it's doable, which was my point. Our tech currently isn't capable of making stuff that can handle mach 61, but we can handle mach 25, if only in specific circumstances. Mach 61 would be a lot more advanced than what we have, but is it advanced enough that it's in a whole different league physics-wise? Like, does the property of air change in ways at mach 61 that doesn't apply at mach 25?

**BaronIveagh**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
It wouldn't work. Moving that fast there isn't enough time for the air to move out of the way so it instead gets increasingly compacted, increasing the pressure which then increases the temperature (as per the gas equation). This would result in the air in front of the ship in question getting superheated to the point it would be incandescent, exactly as for meteorites.

Effectively this works by creating a void of super low pressure that encompasses the object traveling. This vastly reduces friction and allows extreme high speeds with less energy (torpedoes that incorporate this can hit 250 miles an hour while moving through water, a much denser medium than air). You could theoretically pre charge the air as you approach through the use of a laser, so the cavity is already forming before your arrival. This could in theory travel in a straight line at high speeds but would have to decelerate to turn.

**daedalus**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Yes, it's pushing the edge, but it's doable, which was my point. Our tech currently isn't capable of making stuff that can handle mach 61, but we can handle mach 25, if only in specific circumstances. Mach 61 would be a lot more advanced than what we have, but is it advanced enough that it's in a whole different league physics-wise? Like, does the property of air change in ways at mach 61 that doesn't apply at mach 25?

I wonder if it'd be easier to just make something look like it's travelling at mach 61.

**BaronIveagh**

daedalus wrote:

I wonder if it'd be easier to just make something look like it's travelling at mach 61.

That's the issue. (Sitting around the bunker today, this was the subject of discussion again) The only way to really do it is for something else to travel at mach 61 instead. Something like chaff slows down, and jamming would just have done the radar, not the guys chasing it at mach 2, who's eyeball mark I's were also deceived into believing this thing had absurd maneuverability and acceleration. Further, jamming radar mostly swamps it with noise, is really obvious to the operator, and to be jamming Princeton that far away is unlikely.

**A Town Called Malus**

BaronIveagh wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
It wouldn't work. Moving that fast there isn't enough time for the air to move out of the way so it instead gets increasingly compacted, increasing the pressure which then increases the temperature (as per the gas equation). This would result in the air in front of the ship in question getting superheated to the point it would be incandescent, exactly as for meteorites.

Effectively this works by creating a void of super low pressure that encompasses the object traveling. This vastly reduces friction and allows extreme high speeds with less energy (torpedoes that incorporate this can hit 250 miles an hour while moving through water, a much denser medium than air). You could theoretically pre charge the air as you approach through the use of a laser, so the cavity is already forming before your arrival. This could in theory travel in a straight line at high speeds but would have to decelerate to turn.

Wouldn't work. In order to generate that low pressure bubble, it has to move the molecules making up air out of the way. Those molecules can only move so fast due to them constantly bumping into other molecules and transferring momentum. You still run into the ram pressure issue where your ship ends up travelling in a fireball as it superheats the air in front of it.

As for using a laser to ionise air in front of you, you'd require a laser operating in the ionisation portion of the spectrum, so ultraviolet, x-ray or gamma ray. And then you're hoping your laser is hitting the air molecules and that they aren't just reacting with each other prior to your arrival.

**BaronIveagh**

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Wouldn't work. In order to generate that low pressure bubble, it has to move the molecules making up air out of the way. Those molecules can only move so fast due to them constantly bumping into other molecules and transferring momentum. You still run into the ram pressure issue where your ship ends up travelling in a fireball as it superheats the air in front of it.

Well, Pop Sci has put out what appears to be a report excerpt, so the 61knts thing is apparently bogus. My bad for repeating what turned out to be a rumor.

Popular Science wrote:
CVW-11 EVENT SUMMARY
14 NOVEMBER 04
EVENT SUMMARY

110/100, 303/305, 401
FAST EAGLES 110/100 UPON TAKE OFF WERE VECTORED BY PRINCETON AND BANGER (1410L) TO INTERCEPT UNID CONTACT AT 160@40NM (N3050.8 W11746.9) (NIMITZ N3129.3 W11752.8). PRINCETON INFORMED FAST EAGLES THAT THE CONTACT WAS MOVING AT 100 KTS @ 25KFT ASL.

FAST EAGLES (110/100) COULD NOT FIND UNID AIRBORNE CONTACT AT LOCATION GIVEN BY PRINCETON. WHILE SEARCHING FOR UNID AIR CONTACT, FAST EAGLES SPOTTED LARGE UNID OBJECT IN WATER AT 1430L. PILOTS SAW STEAM/ SMOKE/CHURNING AROUND OBJECT. PILOT DESCRIBES OBJECT INITIALLY AS RESEMBLING A DOWNED AIRLINER, ALSO STATED THAT IT WAS MUCH LARGER THAN A SUBMARINE.

WHILE DESCENDING FROM 24K FT TO GAIN A BETTER VIEW OF THE UNID CONTACT IN THE WATER, FAST EAGLE 110 SIGHTED AN AIRBORNE CONTACT WHICH APPEARED TO BE CAPSULE SHAPED (WINGLESS, MOBILE, WHITE, OBLONG PILL SHAPED, 25-30 FEET IN LENGTH, NO VISIBLE MARKINGS AND NO GLASS) 5NM WEST FROM POSITION OF UNID OBJECT IN WATER.

CAPSULE (ALT 4K FT AT COURSE 300) PASSED UNDER FAST EAGLE 110 (ALT 16KFT). FAST EAGLE 110 BEGAN TURN TO ACQUIRE CAPSULE. WHILE 110 WAS DESCENDING AND TURNING, CAPSULE BEGAN CLIMBING AND TURNED INSIDE OF FAST EAGLE’S TURN RADIUS. PILOT ESTIMATED THAT CAPSULE ACHIEVED 600-700 KTS. FAST EAGLE 110 COULD NOT KEEP UP WITH THE RATE OF TURN AND THE GAIN OF ALTITUDE BY THE CAPSULE. 110 LOST VISUAL ID OF CAPSULE IN HAZE. LAST VISUAL CONTACT HAD CAPSULE AT 14KFT HEADING DUE EAST.

NEITHER FAST EAGLES 110 OR 100 COULD ACHIEVE RADAR LOCK OR ANY OTHER MEANS OF POSITIVE ID. FAST EAGLE 100 WAS FLYING HIGH COVER AND SAW THE ENGAGEMENT BY FAST EAGLE 110. FAST EAGLE 100 CONFIRMS 110 VISUAL ID; 100 LOST CONTACT IN HAZE AS WELL.

CPA OF ACFT 110 FROM CONTACT 4000-5000 FT.

So now that we have what may be an actual report doc excerpt from the time of the incident, thoughts?

**Ouze**

I'm not very good at math, but are they saying that the object hit slightly over mach 1? If so, much more plausible to be terrestrial in nature.

**Unit1126PLL**

Ouze wrote:
I'm not very good at math, but are they saying that the object hit slightly over mach 1? If so, much more plausible to be terrestrial in nature.

In fact that's fairly slow for a military aircraft, considering things like the J-20 can hit mach 2.5 iirc.

**BaronIveagh**

According to pop Sci it moved north of 2,400 mph at one point, and given that maneuver of turning inside the Superbug's turn radius and simultaneously out climbing it would put significant power under the hood.

https://fightersweep.com/1460/x-files-edition/

An interestingly written article on this.

**MDSW**

One of my sons is a Navy pilot. i will have to have a discussion about what pilots are told about occurrences like this....