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Give orks +1 to hit if they remain stationary?

helps the units that can hunt armour, with reasonably short ranged weapons once they get close enough - without really allowing the slug & choppa or shoota mobs to benefit - without giving up their main reason for existing?

I really hope the dakka jets +1 if you fire at the same unit was a test for orks because a lot of units need it. If every ork unit had that ability (or they gave badmoons/ def skulls that ability) then we coukd easily get our shooting army back. It's a good counter balance because we would wast potentially 30+ shots shooting down 1 squad of marines with lootas but at least it would hit!

leopard wrote:
Give orks +1 to hit if they remain stationary?

helps the units that can hunt armour, with reasonably short ranged weapons once they get close enough - without really allowing the slug & choppa or shoota mobs to benefit - without giving up their main reason for existing?

Useless, Orks move only 5" and are practically always advancing. The only unit this would benefit is Lootas.

Not sure how it helps units that hunt armour when armour can just move out of range forcing the Orks to move and lose the buff? You've said it yourself - our anti-armour weapons are short ranged.

What if every hit roll of a 6 with shootas, heavy shootas and other similar weapons made another roll to hit, which could then proc another roll to hit that can continue indefinitely, in exception to that rule that stops dice from generating more dice multiple times?
Call it moar dakka or something.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if every hit roll of a 6 with shootas, heavy shootas and other similar weapons made another roll to hit, which could then proc another roll to hit that can continue indefinitely, in exception to that rule that stops dice from generating more dice multiple times?
Call it moar dakka or something.

It would be awesome but since we got the DakkaDakkaDakka strat in Chapter Approved I can't see it being given as a free passive.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What if every hit roll of a 6 with shootas, heavy shootas and other similar weapons made another roll to hit, which could then proc another roll to hit that can continue indefinitely, in exception to that rule that stops dice from generating more dice multiple times?
Call it moar dakka or something.

It would be awesome but since we got the DakkaDakkaDakka strat in Chapter Approved I can't see it being given as a free passive.

Tyranids get an entire extra shooting and we just get 6 to generate more hits.... the 40k lore lootas would be ashamed of the table top orks and blow them off the table.

Orks either need to go back to BS4+ base or get some kind of shooting mob buff.

 davou wrote:
Asking for shooting comparable to whats currently one of the most broke models is where I stop taking things serioiusly. It would be like a marine player complaining that his landraider doesen't have the same effectiveness in combat as an 'orkonaught.

If we are going to compare the assault back with anything, Lootas are more fair. And even then we have to do it while keeping in mind that the assback is a bit OP for its points BEFORE you have aura buffs.

The key difference here is that I am asking for a asscan Razorbacks shooting (100pt model) on a Gorkanaut (340pt model) and furthermore, My ork model won't be able to gain easy buffs in the form of rerolling hits/wounds. 6D6 shots for the Ork model would result in 7 hits on average, against a Marine that would equal about 5 wounds and 2.5 Dead Marines unless they are in cover. That doesn't sound all that impressive nor OP. Now put that same weapon system on a 100pt model and give it easy access to rerolls and its broken, we agree there, but saying its broken simply because of its stats regardless of points cost is ridiculous. Now of course the next obvious point of conflict is that the Naut is paying a lot more pts for that weapon, but it also is significantly more durable and has other shooting options as well as being good in CC. And to that I would point out that this is all very true, but it in no way invalidates the weapon buff because as has been previously pointed out, Nauts are not optimal units, nor are they even close.

I believe I did a survey once awhile back and Asked people if they would gladly take a Naut with ONLY its CC weapon and a reduction in points equal to the cost of the ranged weapons it possesses currently. That means the Naut would cost almost 100pts less and everyone said Yes. why? because the shooting is so piss poor that simply removing those points actually makes it a better unit.

Orks nauts worth 250 points. Period. They can be very good in close combat but since they're slow best case scenario they will fight 1-2 turns per game, usually against targets that are not the appropriate ones since it's easy to avoid them. Shooting is optional.

Like all the other orks walkers they need a 30-40% discount in terms of points cost.

When I field the gorkanaut I also bring 2-3 BWs and 0-6 killa kans, best quality about the big guy is that it soaks all the anti tank in the world for two turns. That's currently its only purpose, not very impressing for 356 points. In fact with my kind of list I should probably take the morkanaut instead, since it will soak the same amount of firepower without doing anything anyway but I wouldn't have to bring a big mek to shield it, letting me save some points.

I think that orkanauts either need a substantial points cut or straight-up double shots across the board.

And hell, they did both for leman russes, maybe there's a chance for our terrible, terrible walkers.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I think that orkanauts either need a substantial points cut or straight-up double shots across the board.

And hell, they did both for leman russes, maybe there's a chance for our terrible, terrible walkers.

I would love to be optimistic, but don't hold your breath

Honestly, I think Orks should just get BS 4+ standard for a couple reasons:

- It helps dedicated ranged units a lot and mitigates to hit penalties
- Increasing the BS has a similar effect to increasing the number of shots

For example, a shoota with assault 2 on a BS 4+ model averages one hit per turn. But a shoota with assault 3 and BS 5+ averages one hit per turn. The only difference in this case is the number of dice the player had to roll.
Increasing the ballistic skill also makes one shot weapons (rokkits) more reliable without contriving more shots per turn for them.

Doing it this way could also just be easier to balance since they will be more comparable to other factions.

Also, keep in mind that BS and attacks are an abstraction. An attack is not necessarily one shot: it could be one burst or several seconds of auto fire. The BS is just the chance of success for that attack. So, orks are less accurate but they shoot so much more in one attack to make up for it.

P.S. Flash gits should get BS 3+ because all they do is shoot all day. Plus it'll help with the fact they have heavy weapons.

And if anyone thinks this will make Orks an unfluffy gunline, here's how Bad Moons fight: (according to the 40k Wiki)

"Bad Moons are more likely to engage their foes at range than most other Orks, punctuating their raucous cackling with the fire of their long-ranged weapons. Bad Moons prefer to kill with their extravagant and deafening guns. Therefore, Bad Moons often have many Flash Gitz, who set up across the battlefield before the fighting starts in earnest and lay waste to anyone who comes into their fire lanes. Bad Moons are usually capable melee combatants, but prefer to fight at range. As such, if they find themselves too close to use their guns effectively, Bad Moons sometimes reposition themselves to other convenient positions where they can continue firing their guns unimpeded."

I've been a big advocate for giving Orks a BS increase ever since they were nerfed back in 3rd edition.

Other possible solutions:
* Double the number of shots most Ork weapons get. It will simulate them firing recklessly, and help them counter their BS deficiency.

* Give them easy access to characters or wargear that grant re-roll misses and +1 to hit.

* Give their HQs increased BS, just like EVERY other factions HQs. The greatest Ork warriors survive countless battles without ever learning to fire a gun as well as an Imperial Guardsman recruit.

* Give dedicated shooting units, like Lootas, Tankhunters, etc.. better BS.

* Grot Snipers: Grots are cowardly and fight from range, have decent BS, and Orks have zero sniping options currently.

I've been a big advocate for giving Orks a BS increase ever since they were nerfed back in 3rd edition.

Other possible solutions:
* Double the number of shots most Ork weapons get. It will simulate them firing recklessly, and help them counter their BS deficiency.

* Give them easy access to characters or wargear that grant re-roll misses and +1 to hit.

* Give their HQs increased BS, just like EVERY other factions HQs. The greatest Ork warriors survive countless battles without ever learning to fire a gun as well as an Imperial Guardsman recruit.

* Give dedicated shooting units, like Lootas, Tankhunters, etc.. better BS.

* Grot Snipers: Grots are cowardly and fight from range, have decent BS, and Orks have zero sniping options currently.

Overall, I agree. But I feel that giving orks a better BS across the board would be better than just more shots because it would be tedious to roll that many dice. Especially if you get to re-roll.

Also, speaking of character stats, Tau commanders get a 3+ WS for some reason, while everything else is 5+. Meanwhile Ork Warbosses are 5+ BS...

I have just go to a local tournament today. 16 players ,3 orks. The top player was an ork, the last player was an ork too.

The last player used like 50 Stormboyz, 3 Battlewagongs (My Company Master in Terminator Armour killed with his Thunder Hammer one un two rounds of combat), 3 units of 6 Kommandos, 30 boyz and a bunch of other stuff like a Mek, a Weirdboyz, Tankbustas, etc...
The one that won the tournament (And we had a Brimstone+Magnus List, Mortarion, three Eldar, one spamming Dark Reapers, unintentionally because he just camed back to the hobby 3 months ago after 10 years and he had like 30 dark reapers from 2nd edition, and a Tyranid list with a good bunch of Dakkafexes and Mortal Wound spam) ran I believe 120 boyz, like 60 Stormboyz, 2 Gorkanauts (Or Morkanauts) Warboss and other things.

Yeah boyz spam is super powerful. But everything else just needs work.

It's not even super powerful. You are just banking on your opponent not taking enough anti-infantry weapons

 adamsouza wrote:
It's not even super powerful. You are just banking on your opponent not taking enough anti-infantry weapons

Pretty much this. It's the same idea for our walker lists except for the fact that our walkers can't hope to match the damage output of those boyz blobs and make it across the board. The only real leg up our walkers have is our nauts actually hit pretty damn hard against high toughness targets in CC.

Get a gork into cc and you will delte most things (apart from 1 time I rolled 1s and 2s against everything in cc against a simple guardsman). Really for their points the nauts should have to same amount of cc attacks and bs WS 2+ to counter their 5+BS

I asked on facebook a while ago and WH Community confirmed that they are going to give special rules to the klans.