Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

torblind wrote:
After taking FNP from necrons and giving it to death guard, they're unlikely to reintroduce it to necrons

FNP also wasn't the original idea either, so I'd agree, I don't think it's likely that they go back to it. If they do it's just laziness IMO. As mentioned above, the RP rules aren't all bad by any means - they just need a tweak, not a re-write.

torblind wrote:
After taking FNP from necrons and giving it to death guard, they're unlikely to reintroduce it to necrons

Wait, didn't death guard already have FNP? Pretty sure they had FNP before necrons, or at least it was some effect of Nurgle's,
Necrons only had FNP for one edition. Thankfully it only lasted for that edition.

Too bad Pariahs where retconned.

They were
A pity too, because they looked better than their lychguard replacements, imo.

I wouldn't mind a spiritual successor to the pariah concept. Something like a bio-transference (or just a biological experiment, in reference to the 3rd ed lore of necrons "taking samples" from people) prototype that generates a null field or something of that nature.

For example, instead of a machine its a biological or cyborg thing with a necron mechanical brain in its head, and since its not technically alive it generates an anti-psychic field. The idea is that if living things with a soul generate a psychic field, then a cyborg horror created by soulless machines would create it's antithesis.
Some really body horror stuff, like something from System Shock.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
They were
A pity too, because they looked better than their lychguard replacements, imo.

I wouldn't mind a spiritual successor to the pariah concept. Something like a bio-transference (or just a biological experiment, in reference to the 3rd ed lore of necrons "taking samples" from people) prototype that generates a null field or something of that nature.

For example, instead of a machine its a biological or cyborg thing with a necron mechanical brain in its head, and since its not technically alive it generates an anti-psychic field. The idea is that if living things with a soul generate a psychic field, then a cyborg horror created by soulless machines would create it's antithesis.
Some really body horror stuff, like something from System Shock.

Lychguard models really aren't that bad. Just use the Praetorian heads like I did and maybe skip the loincloth. It's totally that simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Remove RP and give all units who have it a +1 armor save. Immortals and warriors would have 2+ and 3+. Its not exactly like reanimation, but makes them harder to kill, which is sort of like RP, necrons stay alive. And it speeds up the game, no more RP rolls.

No, sorry, that's a terrible idea. That completely undermines the feel of the necron army.

Necrons do not get bonus armor.
Necrons do not get FNP. They are not death guard.
Necrons come back from the dead. That is how a necron do.

How would you like it if they took away Black rage and just went "you rerolls 1 now in cc, because simple "? That would be bs, wouldn't it?

1. They're robots. They really shouldn't feel pain in the first place.
2. If there was no way to get rerolls for Blood Angels, the complaints would be less likely.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
They were
A pity too, because they looked better than their lychguard replacements, imo.

I wouldn't mind a spiritual successor to the pariah concept. Something like a bio-transference (or just a biological experiment, in reference to the 3rd ed lore of necrons "taking samples" from people) prototype that generates a null field or something of that nature.

For example, instead of a machine its a biological or cyborg thing with a necron mechanical brain in its head, and since its not technically alive it generates an anti-psychic field. The idea is that if living things with a soul generate a psychic field, then a cyborg horror created by soulless machines would create it's antithesis.
Some really body horror stuff, like something from System Shock.

Lychguard models really aren't that bad. Just use the Praetorian heads like I did and maybe skip the loincloth. It's totally that simple.

Its just not the head. In terms of overall design they aren't that impressive looking compared to the pariah.
The pariah were something that stood out in a necron army because of how different they looked. Lychguard just look like barrel chested necrons.
There's nothing inherently wrong with them, its just that the pariah looked better and more interesting design wise than their replacements.

Everyone it talking about RP, which is understandable.
Everyone is saying it shoudn't be FnP and should feel more unique to necrons coming back alive, also understandable.

BUT...
40k is a game. TP needs a game mechanic, that has to be tied to a die roll in some way.

If a model with RP dies (or maybe even a unit). And it has RP, how would you bring it back? Only way is with a die roll.

Weather thats a 5+ or 6+ or whatever, it still the same mechanic as a FnP. Just don't call it FnP. Call it RP. Feel no Pain mechanic is in many armies already called different things, Nids have, DG, Marines, etc...

If you say the models dies, and lay him down or remove him, but on a 6+ he reanimaties, why not just roll the 6+ while he is on the table and save the time of taking him off or knock him over. Then rolling, then setting him back up.

Its the same mechanic, just Named something different. The easiest way would be to simply grant the 6+++ save. If it makes it feel more Necron like. Knock your model over before you roll the 6+.

Now, to get the flavor of they can come back every round, lets say after the 6+++ FnP or RP or whatever you want to call it, you have 6 warriors in a squad of 20 die. Then the next turn at the beginning of your phase, so long as the unit isn't dead, you make another 6+ roll to place the models that have already been removed from the unit back on the table.

Had an ITC tourney this weekend and the necron player had no issues with keeping his guys on the board. His problem was killing stuff. They are durable as hell, but cannot take out units. I think having the D3 and D6 damage on guns will definitely help.

Dropping overall point cost will likely happen.

Adding Dynasty Chapter tactics and stratagems will definitely help as well.

The difference is that you have a chance to deny the roll by wiping the squad out first. Its always been that way. It was that way in 3rd, it was that way in 5th, it was that way in 6th.
It is NOT the same mechanic. FNP is a roll taken directly after saves are taken. WBB/RP is a roll taken for each slain model at a certain point in the turn.
RP was never, except in 7th ed, a save like FNP is.

This though

Now, to get the flavor of they can come back every round, lets say after the 6+++ FnP or RP or whatever you want to call it, you have 6 warriors in a squad of 20 die. Then the next turn at the beginning of your phase, so long as the unit isn't dead, you make another 6+ roll to place the models that have already been removed from the unit back on the table.

Is an ok compromise. It doesn't have the same counter play the traditional rule does, but I can see its worth as being a form of WBB/RP.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The difference is that you have a chance to deny the roll by wiping the squad out first. Its always been that way. It was that way in 3rd, it was that way in 5th, it was that way in 6th.
It is NOT the same mechanic. FNP is a roll taken directly after saves are taken. WBB/RP is a roll taken for each slain model at a certain point in the turn.
RP was never, except in 7th ed, a save like FNP is.

This though

Now, to get the flavor of they can come back every round, lets say after the 6+++ FnP or RP or whatever you want to call it, you have 6 warriors in a squad of 20 die. Then the next turn at the beginning of your phase, so long as the unit isn't dead, you make another 6+ roll to place the models that have already been removed from the unit back on the table.

Is an ok compromise. It doesn't have the same counter play the traditional rule does, but I can see its worth as being a form of WBB/RP.

Yeah i get that. But GW is trying to make things more simplistic and streamlined. Having the same rules across multiple armies regardless of whay they are called for fluff reasons is a way to do that. Look at Deep Strike for instance. How many different names are their for DS, probaly like 12.

Yeah! If only there was some system of Universal Special Rules! We've never seen anyone complain about those. /s

I'm just sayin' I liked the RP at the end of the phase and if failed no more chances unless res orb.

Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.

The general idea has been, for the most part, that the Necron 'thang' is being fething impossible to kill. That is how the army played when warriors had a 3+ save and you could play the shell game with Monoliths and Veils of darkness moving whole units around the board. Now the list has rules that appear to be aimed in that same direction, but fail to reach it. So, what we have is an army that fails (pretty dramatically) to be any good at all at the one thing they are supposed to do better than anyone else. Hopefully the codex addresses that.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.

Yeah, being harder to kill than most races. The whole coming back from the dead thing and having access to some pretty unique gear with special abilities is the necron identity and acts as compensation for lack of psykers.
The problem is their damage output isn't high enough for the level of durablity they have, and they don't have all of that gear anymore. Either increase their damage output or increase how tanky they are, and of course, give them back their toys.

I want Solar Pulse.
I want Nightmare Shroud
I want mind shackle scarabs
I want pokeballs tess labs.
I want the cryptek staff options.

The fact they were missing from the index hurts the army, as it takes away the options that they needed to perform effectively. A solar pulse, for example, would actually help them surviving, as it can mitigate the enemy damage output.
Nightmare shrouds can help with their offense, as it screws up enemy morale, and since morale deals damage now it can get a few kills and serve an actual use in this edition, as opposed to its previous incarnations where it was situational at best.
MSS again, can help defensively by shutting down hard hitters and tesslabs can take care of threats. The cryptek staff options added some flexibility to the necron army, from anti-tank to anti-hoard capabilities, and they really need such flexibility right now.

My take on this - RP should occur at the end of every Phase OR a unit should get the chance to RP if it would be wiped (like how in 7th Tzeentch Horrors were able to split before they were wiped).

Occurring each Phase is the simpler of the two, so its probably the better option.


It would also be great if Necrons got a stratagem along similar line to the once Daemons just got, where they can resurrect a unit that died earlier without Reinforcement points with other restrictions(the Daemon one requires Grey Knights to slay the unit, but that doesn't really fit with Necrons). Maybe something like:

3 CP - Use when a friendly NECRON unit with the Reanimation Protocols ability is destroyed.
The destroyed unit is returned to the battlefield at full strength. Set the unit up so that it is both more than
9" from any enemy unit and wholly within 6" of a friendly Monolith. In Matched Play the returned unit does
not cost Reinforcement Points.

Change Reanimation Protocol to a Disgustingly Resistant/FNP Save.

Change Guass Rules to Match Grav Special Weapons Rules.

Point Drops

 adamsouza wrote:
Change Reanimation Protocol to a Disgustingly Resistant/FNP Save.

Change Guass Rules to Match Grav Special Weapons Rules.

Point Drops

so.... "make necrons iron hands"?

Id love to see the other Powers of the Ctan to return.

Heres what id think they should Function:

-Cosmic Fire: 24" Assault D6, S6 AP-1 Ignores Cover.

-Sky of the Falling Stars: Assault 3D3, S7 AP- can target units out of LoS.

-Transdimensional Thunderbolt: Assault 1, S9 AP -4, D6 dmg, Tesla.

Dont know if these would be too weak/strong, just trying to translate what they were in 7th ed. To 8th ed.

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.

Tau aren't better at shooting any more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EnTyme wrote:
Yeah! If only there was some system of Universal Special Rules! We've never seen anyone complain about those. /s

That GW was bad at making USRs doesn't mean USRs are themselves bad. Think about how you could have rolled up many of the GW rules into things like "Charge (Strength: 1)" instead of Furious Charge, "Charge (Hits: 1)" instead of Hammer of Wrath etc. A system where it tells you what action triggers the rule (when charging), what happens (Strength increases, get automatic hits etc.) and by how much (1 extra strength, 1 auto hit). For other rules there could be an extra term at the end indicating more restrictions, so you could have "Shooting (To Hit: +1) Stationary" to indicate that when shooting you get +1 to hit when you are stationary.

 adamsouza wrote:
Change Reanimation Protocol to a Disgustingly Resistant/FNP Save.

Change Guass Rules to Match Grav Special Weapons Rules.

Point Drops

If you want to make necrons bland and take away what makes them unique, sure.
I want to play necrons though, so that idea won't do at all.

The current RP does not need to be changed from the ground up. There is nothing wrong with them coming back. Its just that there's nothing to alleviate some of the inherent weaknesses in that sort of rule in this current edition, whilst before they had all sorts of ways to mitigate it.
Spyders in 3rd ed could res fallen squads, solar pulse messes with incoming shooting, res orbs in 3rd removed some of the restrictions for the roll to be made, in 5th ed the roll is made at the end of each phase, etc.
The current edition has really nothing like that, and as such RP feels weaker than it should be. Its as if GW designed RP with these supporting elements in mind, but didn't add them for some odd reason.

I would like monoliths to grant a single wbb roll for a wiped squad with rp. Maybe at the beginning of your turn roll a d6 for every model in that unit, on a 6 that model is placed within 3" of the monolith as if it had just disembarked from a transport. That's fluffy and helps with people targeting a squad to death.

Other than that necrons problem seems to be they are easy to kill because it's so easy to take plasma level weapons this time. Maybe a special rule where if a model has more than 1 wound it takes 1 less wound from multi wound range attacks? That way it shows the only reliable way to kill them is to hack and slash them to death, otherwise you have to pour more firepower into them.

Only other rule I could see being introduced would be a kind of rend to gauss, maybe if you hit on a natural 6 your hit is at ap-2 instead of -1, or add +1 to the wound roll or something along that path.

Being allowed to roll RP for wiped units ONLY if you have reinforcement points set aside for it.

Because you're getting fresh reinforcements for free other wise and that's just completely broken, it's not fixing anything, it's just getting one up on your opponents

KalexKurosaki wrote:
Being allowed to roll RP for wiped units ONLY if you have reinforcement points set aside for it.

Because you're getting fresh reinforcements for free other wise and that's just completely broken, it's not fixing anything, it's just getting one up on your opponents

That's...not optimal, but doable I guess if its only for wiped squad. Then again, I don't like the setting aside points mechanic for reinforcements as a whole though, so that's just me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
. Maybe a special rule where if a model has more than 1 wound it takes 1 less wound from multi wound range attacks?

That's basically the warlord trait introduced in chapter approved

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.

The general idea has been, for the most part, that the Necron 'thang' is being fething impossible to kill. That is how the army played when warriors had a 3+ save and you could play the shell game with Monoliths and Veils of darkness moving whole units around the board. Now the list has rules that appear to be aimed in that same direction, but fail to reach it. So, what we have is an army that fails (pretty dramatically) to be any good at all at the one thing they are supposed to do better than anyone else. Hopefully the codex addresses that.

Building on this, what if teleporting a unit allowed it make a juiced up RP roll when they re-enter the board? Something to represent the feeling of actually "coming back" in dramatic fashion?

zodiac_coward wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
Another issue that necrons do not have any psycers. So they should be good at something else like Tau at shooting.

The general idea has been, for the most part, that the Necron 'thang' is being fething impossible to kill. That is how the army played when warriors had a 3+ save and you could play the shell game with Monoliths and Veils of darkness moving whole units around the board. Now the list has rules that appear to be aimed in that same direction, but fail to reach it. So, what we have is an army that fails (pretty dramatically) to be any good at all at the one thing they are supposed to do better than anyone else. Hopefully the codex addresses that.

Building on this, what if teleporting a unit allowed it make a juiced up RP roll when they re-enter the board? Something to represent the feeling of actually "coming back" in dramatic fashion?

That's very similar to how the Monolith used to work. You picked your squad up and recycled it through the 'Lith and got rerolls on you RP rolls (called We'll be back at the time). It's been a while since I played those rules, but that's my memory of it. Anyway, there's some precedent for a rule like the one you describe, and I think it would be fluffy and cool. Plus, at the time, Veil of Darkness was wargear, not a once a game thing, and the Necrons were actually pretty good at swinging units around the table that way, which was also fun and something I'd like to see again (especially being able to teleport out of HtH). This whole thread feels like wishlisting at this point, but I'm ok with that.

I don't like hinging the RP fix on the Monolith, it's easily enough talen care of in a turn by most factions

torblind wrote:
I don't like hinging the RP fix on the Monolith, it's easily enough talen care of in a turn by most factions

That might be due to it being the only vehicle worth targeting by anti-tank weapons in the necron army.
If the necrons had more proper tank units, like mini-monoliths or something that don't have QS, are pretty well armored and don't have gaping weakpoints and obvious fragility appearance wise, then the opponent will have a dilemma - force down the monolith, and give the smaller tanks a chance to do damage, force down the smaller tanks and give the monolith a chance to support troops, or split fire and try to cripple them.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

torblind wrote:
I don't like hinging the RP fix on the Monolith, it's easily enough talen care of in a turn by most factions

That might be due to it being the only vehicle worth targeting by anti-tank weapons in the necron army.
If the necrons had more proper tank units, like mini-monoliths or something that don't have QS, are pretty well armored and don't have gaping weakpoints and obvious fragility appearance wise, then the opponent will have a dilemma - force down the monolith, and give the smaller tanks a chance to do damage, force down the smaller tanks and give the monolith a chance to support troops, or split fire and try to cripple them.

Beside RP, I believe that is one of the major issues with Necrons. QS hurts us as much as it helps by makiing targeting Necrons easy. . We have little options in making enemies have a tough choice on what to target.

Indeed. QS is a strong ability, but it has the downside of making target priority easy for the opponent. QS only really works when its used in conjunction with non-QS heavy targets to split target priority.
Which is why necrons need more monolith type vehicles as well as boat (barge and ark) type vehicles, something solid, tough looking and tanky.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Indeed. QS is a strong ability, but it has the downside of making target priority easy for the opponent. QS only really works when its used in conjunction with non-QS heavy targets to split target priority.
Which is why necrons need more monolith type vehicles as well as boat (barge and ark) type vehicles, something solid, tough looking and tanky.

Could this be solved by making existing vehicles stronger or is this a fix that requires a new type of tank to fill the niche?