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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Building a blood in water scent

I thought the complexity of calculation goes up as more coins are mined, which is why some theorize there will be limit on the number of coins, as the calculations will eventually become too complex.

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Xenomancers wrote:
Moore's law states that processing power will continually increase - which means bitcoin was doomed to fail from the start. It is that simple.


That's not actually how Moore's law works. It's more specific - that circuit count in an IC will double ever 18 months. That's definitely not a thing that could have continued forever and in fact it's pretty much busted now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/15 22:01:37


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Ouze wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Moore's law states that processing power will continually increase - which means bitcoin was doomed to fail from the start. It is that simple.


That's not actually how Moore's law works. It's more specific - that circuit count in an IC will double ever 18 months. That's definitely not a thing that could have continued forever and in fact it's pretty much busted now.


It's stopped following the pattern but processing power still regularly increases. Plus - we are on the cusp of some huge breakthroughs in processing power. Biological circuits and quantum computing for example.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 feeder wrote:
I thought the complexity of calculation goes up as more coins are mined, which is why some theorize there will be limit on the number of coins, as the calculations will eventually become too complex.


Bitcoin is limited to only ever reaching 21,000,000 coins by the design of its maker not so much because calculations will become too complex but rather because the cost-benefit of making new coins for miners will eventually hit zero. Bitcoin rewards miners with coins, but the reward his halved as certain milestones are reached (functionally the reward is halved ever 4 years). This is an artificial limitation imposed by the creator of bitcoin and not a technological or computational limitation so as to artificially enforce scarcity and thus eliminated the otherwise inevitable problem of inflation on a currency that would functionally be infinite. Keep in mind that even as the calculations become more complex, the ability to calculate for the foreseeable future follows a fairly linear curve. We're not going to be hitting any walls in our ability to speed up computers for quite sometime. Basically the logic is that once there is no longer a reward for mining new coins, no one will bother and thus there will never be an infinite number of coins.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/15 22:11:38


   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 feeder wrote:
I thought the complexity of calculation goes up as more coins are mined, which is why some theorize there will be limit on the number of coins, as the calculations will eventually become too complex.
interesting I didn't know that about bitcoin. That's still not an unbeatable mechanic since it is updated periodically - which means it will always be unstable. Not good news for a currency.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Xenomancers wrote:
Bitcoin viability depends entirely on it being difficult to produce. That is tied directly to processing power of CPU's. Moore's law states that processing power will continually increase - which means bitcoin was doomed to fail from the start. It is that simple.


No one uses CPUs for mining bitcoins because it's not effective (1). Moore's law doesn't state that processing power will continually increase. It an observation that the number of transistors on an IC doubles every two years due to miniaturization (2). That just happens to be loosely correlated with processing power increasing. And it's not even holding true nowadays (3), because processor manufacturers have mostly focused on parallelization and black magic (4) to make processors faster (5) which is backfiring spectacularly (6). Also, Bitcoin isn't doomed for that reason because there's only a finite (albeit large) number of bitcoins that can ever exist (7), and they become increasingly harder to mine. (8)

But it is simple (9), I guess.


1. https://jonathanmh.com/how-to-mine-bitcoin-with-your-cpu/
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law
3. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601441/moores-law-is-dead-now-what/
4. http://www.hacker-dictionary.com/terms/black-magic
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculative_execution
6. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/01/meltdown-and-spectre-every-modern-processor-has-unfixable-security-flaws/ or https://xkcd.com/1938/
7. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Principles_of_Bitcoin
8. https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/bitcoin-mining-reward/
9. http://i.cdn.turner.com/adultswim/big/video/simple-rick/rickandmorty_ep307_002_Simple_Ricks.jpg

Edit: Added final citation for pandering's sake.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/15 23:48:57


Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Ouze wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Moore's law states that processing power will continually increase - which means bitcoin was doomed to fail from the start. It is that simple.


That's not actually how Moore's law works. It's more specific - that circuit count in an IC will double ever 18 months. That's definitely not a thing that could have continued forever and in fact it's pretty much busted now.


It's stopped following the pattern but processing power still regularly increases


Yeah, but... that's not Moore's law.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Not to mention that SETI scanning the sky also provides coverage and the potential to pick up interesting signals to be studied even if they are not of alien origin.


Also, SETI does a lot more than just listen to the sky for aliens: https://www.seti.org/node/647


I didn't know that and its really cool. Thanks for posting it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grey Templar wrote:
Its like a homeless person putting all the money they panhandle for into lottery tickets instead of trying to find some help to no longer be homeless. Sure, they might win, but there are more productive things they could do.


Your example sucks, because society isn't investing everything it has in to SETI. We're throwing in pocket change. So its more like a upper middle class person buying a lottery ticket with the change they just found in between the sofa cushions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Bitcoin viability depends entirely on it being difficult to produce. That is tied directly to processing power of CPU's. Moore's law states that processing power will continually increase - which means bitcoin was doomed to fail from the start. It is that simple.


You've got the 'doomed to fail' part, but you've got the reason why completely the wrong way around. The problem isn't that bitcoin will keep producing endless coins, the problem is that it won't. And even now, while the stock of coins is increasing, that increase is tied to arbitrary rules rather than the actual demand for coins. The result is a currency that wildly volatile in the short term, and (for now) appreciating over the long term.

It can't be said clearly enough - that's a really terrible currency. ST volatility - imagine a store owner trying to set a price with a currency that moves 20% in a couple of days. LT appreciating - imagine a buyer thinking about buying something, then deciding if they just wait 6 months and leave their coins sitting there the price will probably. come down

And so, because bitcoin is such a bad currency... what is it? Its a speculative investment with no final payoff. This means it isn't even a bubble, it's actually a pyramid scheme.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/16 01:59:31


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 sebster wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its like a homeless person putting all the money they panhandle for into lottery tickets instead of trying to find some help to no longer be homeless. Sure, they might win, but there are more productive things they could do.


Your example sucks, because society isn't investing everything it has in to SETI. We're throwing in pocket change. So its more like a upper middle class person buying a lottery ticket with the change they just found in between the sofa cushions.


In my example Homeless Person = SETI scientists, not society as a whole.

They'd be better served looking for valuable minerals in the asteroid belt or on Mars as potential resources for future mining, or focus on designing a manned mission to Mars, etc...

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Grey Templar wrote:
In my example Homeless Person = SETI scientists, not society as a whole.


Then your example sucked in a different way. Because if the homeless person is the scientists, then talking about them spending money on SETI/a lottery ticket makes no sense - for the scientists SETI isn't spending, it is their income.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 sebster wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
In my example Homeless Person = SETI scientists, not society as a whole.


Then your example sucked in a different way. Because if the homeless person is the scientists, then talking about them spending money on SETI/a lottery ticket makes no sense - for the scientists SETI isn't spending, it is their income.


You're being deliberately obtuse.

The point is that SETI scientists could be spending the money they are receiving pursuing something of actual value. Rather than going on a Snipe hunt which sometimes turns up useful data by accident. They'd probably find even more useful stuff if they were deliberately looking for stuff. Even if it was just "lets look at X quadrant and see what we find today!" instead of "lets desperately look at X quadrant in search of alienzzz!"

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Grey Templar wrote:
You're being deliberately obtuse.

The point is that SETI scientists could be spending the money they are receiving pursuing something of actual value. Rather than going on a Snipe hunt which sometimes turns up useful data by accident. They'd probably find even more useful stuff if they were deliberately looking for stuff. Even if it was just "lets look at X quadrant and see what we find today!" instead of "lets desperately look at X quadrant in search of alienzzz!"


No, I'm pointing out your analogy stinks and confuses a fairly simple set of decisions. SETI searches for alien life because that's what they're paid to do. And greater society funds SETI because the funding needed is less than pocket change, with a very small, but potentially huge chance of an enormous pay off.

The analogy you created hid that reality. It made it out that person spending money (the homeless person) was throwing all their money in to the project, when in reality the people putting up this money are putting in a handful of disposable change.

“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Grey Templar wrote:
 sebster wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
In my example Homeless Person = SETI scientists, not society as a whole.


Then your example sucked in a different way. Because if the homeless person is the scientists, then talking about them spending money on SETI/a lottery ticket makes no sense - for the scientists SETI isn't spending, it is their income.


You're being deliberately obtuse.

The point is that SETI scientists could be spending the money they are receiving pursuing something of actual value. Rather than going on a Snipe hunt which sometimes turns up useful data by accident. They'd probably find even more useful stuff if they were deliberately looking for stuff. Even if it was just "lets look at X quadrant and see what we find today!" instead of "lets desperately look at X quadrant in search of alienzzz!"


Of course with that logic great many useful discoveries we are grateful of today would have been not discovered. Likely resulting in lives lost and generally worse living standards.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

// Of course what the industry really needs is someone to make the whole thing seem more real and genuine.

Someone you can trust and who can bring a touch of je ne sais quoi to the whole thing.

https://bitcoiin2gen.pr.co/163919-zen-master-steven-seagal-has-become-the-brand-ambassador-of-bitcoiin2gen?reheat_cache=1



ZEN MASTER STEVEN SEAGAL HAS BECOME THE BRAND AMBASSADOR OF BITCOIIN2GEN



hmm .... welll there was an attempt anyway eh ?


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Building a blood in water scent

 reds8n wrote:

ZEN MASTER STEVEN SEAGAL HAS BECOME THE BRAND AMBASSADOR OF BITCOIIN2GEN



hmm .... welll there was an attempt anyway eh ?



I'll take "things that are transparently a con" for $200, Alex.

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 reds8n wrote:
// Of course what the industry really needs is someone to make the whole thing seem more real and genuine.

Someone you can trust and who can bring a touch of je ne sais quoi to the whole thing.

https://bitcoiin2gen.pr.co/163919-zen-master-steven-seagal-has-become-the-brand-ambassador-of-bitcoiin2gen?reheat_cache=1


Perhaps nothing captures the feel of our times more than this one perfect thing. A man who is nominally famous for a 'die hard on a battleship' movie 25 years ago, but these days basically is an unintentional self-parody of the tough guy persona, is fronting for an investment that is such pure hype based it is basically Pets.com without the bit where people ran a website and posted people bags of Chum. Vacuous hype selling vacuous hype. These are our times.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/21 02:24:24


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 sebster wrote:
 reds8n wrote:
// Of course what the industry really needs is someone to make the whole thing seem more real and genuine.

Someone you can trust and who can bring a touch of je ne sais quoi to the whole thing.

https://bitcoiin2gen.pr.co/163919-zen-master-steven-seagal-has-become-the-brand-ambassador-of-bitcoiin2gen?reheat_cache=1


Perhaps nothing captures the feel of our times more than this one perfect thing. A man who is nominally famous for a 'die hard on a battleship' movie 25 years ago, but these days basically is an unintentional self-parody of the tough guy persona, is fronting for an investment that is such pure hype based it is basically Pets.com without the bit where people ran a website and posted people bags of Chum. Vacuous hype selling vacuous hype. These are our times.
I thought US politics was banned in OT?










ba-dum tshhhh

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

https://www.cnet.com/news/australian-coal-power-plant-reopened-blockchain-bitcoin-applications/


Sure, you could mine bitcoin on that old PC in your garage, or you could use a whole power station to do it.

That's the idea behind the Blockchain Application Centre -- an Aussie tech initiative that will see one of the country's now-shuttered coal-fired power plants reopened to provide cheap power for blockchain applications.

It's the work of Australian tech company IOT Group, which has partnered with local power company Hunter Energy on the project. According to The Age, Hunter Energy will recommission the Redbank power station in the Hunter Valley, two hours drive north of Sydney.

Once the power plant is reopened (expected to be completed within 12 months), it will offer wholesale or "pre-grid" power prices to blockchain companies, allowing them to do things like mining cryptocurrencies, without having to pay retail power prices.

There's no doubt blockchain is the next big thing in the tech world. It's essentially a technology that stores individual transactions in an ever-growing set of data blocks, allowing different parties to see the same information because it's distributed across computers, rather than being stored in one place.

But while blockchain guarantees trust in a digital world, mining blocks (the process of adding and securing data) is an incredibly compute-intensive task, and one which consumes a huge amount of power. World mining of bitcoin (probably the most well-known blockchain application) currently uses about as much power as the country of Singapore.

IOT Group and Hunter Energy want to get around that, offering cheaper power to companies in the blockchain field and hopefully enticing international operations to base their operations in Australia.

According to a spokesperson from Hunter Energy, it expects roughly 5% of the energy from the power plant will be used for blockchain related processes.



The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




 reds8n wrote:
https://www.cnet.com/news/australian-coal-power-plant-reopened-blockchain-bitcoin-applications/
It's only fitting.
   
Made in sg
Fresh-Faced New User




Honestly, that's what I've been telling my friends for ages but no one will listen. Everyone was in panic mode when this happened, and even before when I first got into crypto, everyone felt that there was no way the prices of something so 'virtual' would go up. When it did, no one believed it would last and now that it's crashed, they all feel justified that they were right - for now. It's the same as all other past investment forms and even insurance: skepticism over something sooo potentially worthwhile limits their beliefs and taking any action on it.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I believe, Bitcoin is gold without the weight and the ability to take flight. It's a distributed ledger which no one entity controls, but is visible and verifible by all. t takes a while for people to understand what it is. My advice for crypto is as follows: even if you are not going to invest in crypto, just read news from cryptolinks resources and keep yourself updated in the crypto world.

My project is my life 
   
Made in gb
[MOD]
Villanous Scum







Please do not necro old threads.

On parle toujours mal quand on n'a rien à dire. 
   
 
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