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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Where is Vulkan then? He even said his return would be temporary, so we don't know what he is doing now, it might be more important than leading the Imperium, which is why I keep saying, We don't know what he is doing, until we do you can't say he just refuses to lead the Imperium. He said he'd never let Caldera fall into flame again so its fair to say he keeps coming back to save it, for that point only. Unless you know what he is doing up to now your point is moot, it is probable but now factual. Again the onus is on you to prove that Russ is not able as a statesmen, I've given you an example but your argument is based on opinion, you think he isn't capable or that he just doesn't want to, both points are easily refutable if you know what Primarchs are capable of, (except for Angron but he has always been broken) and loyalist Primarchs sense of duty As for his intelligence, I was replying to someone else and only to point out that he wasn't a barbarian bit Russ was without doubt wise. Also Girlyman didn't come back and say I'll lead, It was the Emperor that told him what to do, when he was given the Emps sword. Vulkan only ever came back to fight, he didn't even know the extent of the Imperiums decline.

Nothing would be more important than leading the Imperium seeing as it's just gone downhill consistently. That's honestly not a good argument.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Bull, the HH early Primarch's were written brilliantly, lots of character flaws etc.

Hi I'm Horus, with great power comes great daddy issues! Ohh my ass what was that I got stabbed with, better succumb to chaos so we have a plot.

Hello Horus, I'm every other intentional traitor Primarch, good thing I have no issues slaughtering my own men and see no parallel between my action and our fathers that made us so very upset.

Hey Horus, i'm Russ, I'm really angry and like killing things, oh, Magnus, right oh off I go!

Oh hi there guys, we're all the other loyalists, good thing everything's going wrong for us because otherwise we'd probably stomp your steadily corrupted asses.

*Sounds of Magnus getting ganked and rage quitting*


Let's be honest, the interesting thing about the first bunch of the books were the space marines under them trying to cope with what was going on. The rest was not amazing. Up till Sanguinis starts getting some face time and talks about dealing with his non-self inflicted issues there's nothing particularly impressive about any of it. Even that was retread of what we've already known for a long time, which is one of Heresy's bigger problems. If they dare change anything I can only imagine what the result is going to be.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

Let's be honest, the interesting thing about the first bunch of the books were the space marines under them trying to cope with what was going on. The rest was not amazing. Up till Sanguinis starts getting some face time and talks about dealing with his non-self inflicted issues there's nothing particularly impressive about any of it. Even that was retread of what we've already known for a long time, which is one of Heresy's bigger problems. If they dare change anything I can only imagine what the result is going to be.

They have already changed things. They are going to change things. They have already hinted siege of terra isn't going to go as we know.

Seeing world hasn't ended despite them already having changed things not likely ending any time soon.

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Bull, the HH early Primarch's were written brilliantly, lots of character flaws etc.

Hi I'm Horus, with great power comes great daddy issues! Ohh my ass what was that I got stabbed with, better succumb to chaos so we have a plot.

Hello Horus, I'm every other intentional traitor Primarch, good thing I have no issues slaughtering my own men and see no parallel between my action and our fathers that made us so very upset.

Hey Horus, i'm Russ, I'm really angry and like killing things, oh, Magnus, right oh off I go!

Oh hi there guys, we're all the other loyalists, good thing everything's going wrong for us because otherwise we'd probably stomp your steadily corrupted asses.

*Sounds of Magnus getting ganked and rage quitting*


Let's be honest, the interesting thing about the first bunch of the books were the space marines under them trying to cope with what was going on. The rest was not amazing. Up till Sanguinis starts getting some face time and talks about dealing with his non-self inflicted issues there's nothing particularly impressive about any of it. Even that was retread of what we've already known for a long time, which is one of Heresy's bigger problems. If they dare change anything I can only imagine what the result is going to be.

Largely agreed, although I do feel that Sanguinius and Guilliman are some of the better written Primarchs. Angron and Kurze, despite their natures, also get some very good showing and character insight.

I don't really mind them changing stuff up, however. Imperium Secundus wasn't a thing beforehand, it is now. It's a good story device, and organically introduces the Tyranids too.

Given how harsh that sounds, I will say thus far the Khan has been written as a rather interesting character in Scars, despite how obvious it is they're writing around the fact they hadn't written much about him. Much better balance of normal people vs legionary vs primarch than the early books, and an interesting one with some freedom of action at that.

If we are talking about Mary Sueness I don't think any Space Wolves can be mentioned without massive irony.

I used to love them but now Urghhh,

I liked the fact that RG was mentally devastated by his return, by what the Imperium had become - the other Imperial Primarchs would be as interesting tbh.

Leman Russ - Once he would have been but now they would just Wolf Wolf Wolfy him up. Him coming back now and RG and he trying to sor stuff out which disagreeing would be interesting if they can tone down the fething Wolf drek.

Vulkan - interesting to see what he would do and how he would act

Lion - every HH book I read portrayed him a arrogant psychopath - Horus reborn would how he would have acted I think

Khan - difficult to make him stick around and focus on actually sorting the gak out.

Vulkan came back ti save the world Caldera specifically, so he didn't come back and refuse to lead he said he'd be back temporarily and since we don't know if he is doing anything more important your point is moot.

The reason why the onus is on you to prove that Russ can't lead is because I never said he could do it well, all I said is that he would, If the Emperor asked him to like Girlyman of course he would take up that mantle, he could do it better than any man because he's a Primarch and he'd have the duty to do so, that's incontrovertible. But you are saying he 'can't' where there is no proof for that argument. There is proff all over the place that Primarch's are better than humans everywhere in the HH, but you whimsically just refute that for no other reason for wanting to be right.

Again the strawman you keep arguing, that I said the Wolfblade was created for political learning. I never once said that, I proved you wrong and that you didn't read the book by showing you that the Wolfblade was used for political education and now you have changed the argument to saying I said that was what it was made for, which is very pathetic, go back and find a quote where I said that. You are lying you said it was purely for beign a bodyguard you NEVER said it was for learning politics. You're a complete liar. YOU NEVER READ THE BOOK, stop lying. You thought I stopped commenting on this thread and are lying to make yourself look right. You are pathological.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Well they would be humorous before the heresy, Dorn was depicted as a rage hound, constantly angry to the point of not seeing sense, Fulgrim obsessed with perfection so much that he felt like a failure all the time, The Lion and his treatment of Zaherial There were few books at the beginning that were designated to Primarchs though, I liked them all, granted I read them more than 10 years ago but I have fond memories of them.

I'm not saying the Primarchs themselves are humorous, I'm saying their portrayals are. How they act, how insanely one dimensional they are. The fact that Horus knows its not Hastur talking to him in his dream and is distrustful of him but ultimately agrees with him because they need a badguy and its called the Horus Heresy. The first 3 books were and arguably are still good, they just don't hold up when you re-read them. At least not in the way that Eisenhorn (to me personally anyway) does.

This one didn't start out well, and it hasn't gotten much better from there.

So with that - I believe we're all done here.