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Though for clarity - if you rock up to a known time restricted game with a massive force of foot sloggers, you've only got yourself to blame!

Just as some forms of list do well in tournaments, others just don't suit that environment.

But then it would be much more fair for organizer to simply flat out ban said armies rather than take the money from players who flat out will auto-lose every game from the get-go either by time or by being forced to take worthless junk just to make game go faster and lose automatically that way.

Making armies auto-lose but still take their money is just greed.

I think I'm less sympathetic to players who field such armies in such an environment.

I mean, it's rubbish for them that Ork players have certain builds effectively locked out. But, that should be pretty obvious when planning your force.

It's one of the reasons I'm currently favouring small, elite armies. I'm so incredibly rusty on the rules, that working with fewer models means less faffing about getting me up to speed.

But as you say, there is an argument that at least part of the onus is on TO's to provide guidance on such as a minimum.

It makes the whole tournament thing a little farcical though if you cannot play a horde army because it takes too long, or an assault army if the short time-limit favours shooty armies.

40K makes no mention of time limits in the rule book and whatever balance exists in the game is going to be thrown further out of wack by the imposition of time limits.

No idea what the solution should be.
Well, it should be that games last as long as they last (which instantly removes any issues of slow play or army selection) but I can see why that isn't feasible for a tournament.

Personally this just strikes me as further evidence that 40K is not suited for tournament play, but YMMV.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Though for clarity - if you rock up to a known time restricted game with a massive force of foot sloggers, you've only got yourself to blame!

Just as some forms of list do well in tournaments, others just don't suit that environment.

I play Nids and almost always rock up with over 100 models. I may take slightly more time in the deployment/movement phase, but shooting often far less than my opponent and I've practised enough that I can get my army moving in a reasonably quick time, have my dice set up in blocks of 10, 20, know my stats etc. If I couldn't do so I wouldn't take it to tournaments or even single games where there is a strict time-limit. I'm currently trying out various movement tray options to see if this will help further, but those old-style genestealers and their wavy arms!

I would adjust my list or practice my deployment/movement phase enough until I could get that deployment and first turn done in half an hour or less. There is no excuse for rocking up to an event with an army you know you can't run in a timeous fashion, it's just selfish. You can run ork and nid hordes and not hog all the time, but you've got to put the work in and lose that sense of entitlement ...

I'd agree that Tournaments introduce issues not intended in the design of the rules, with the time limit being possibly the most significant.

Whilst Tournaments are absolutely social affairs, 40k is a particularly social based game - intended to be one's afternoon/evening hang out with your friends. That's why many games last more than a couple of hours, depending on the size.

Compare to X-Wing and even Shadespire. Both of those play much, much faster. Not just because of a far lower model count, but just in how they play. They're designed for the games to be swift, so you instead play three or four in the time of a 'regular' 40k battle.

Peeps wanting to enjoy the Tournament scene need to account for that in their army design. As well as looking for a decent list where everything pulls it weight, you want to make it time efficient to field. There's little point in going for a '6th Turn Tide Turner' list (I may have invented that concept for sake of example) if you're more likely to only get four turns in. Hence the reliance on transports - one model to move, much quicker across the board. They may not always be points efficient in a 6 turn game, effectively having little to do once their cargo is dropped off. But in a four turn game? They make the seizing of objectives a more attractive proposition.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think I'm less sympathetic to players who field such armies in such an environment.

I mean, it's rubbish for them that Ork players have certain builds effectively locked out. But, that should be pretty obvious when planning your force.

It's one of the reasons I'm currently favouring small, elite armies. I'm so incredibly rusty on the rules, that working with fewer models means less faffing about getting me up to speed.

But as you say, there is an argument that at least part of the onus is on TO's to provide guidance on such as a minimum.

You aren't just locking certain builds. You have effectively locked entire ork army out period! If time limit is designed with marine army in mind ork player can just not bother up as there's no way he can make competive list that won't lose by time. Orks dont' bring mobs of 30 player just cause it's fun but because it's pretty much only thing that prevents from being roflstomped without breaking a sweat. Non-infantry swarm orks goes green at envy at the awesome broken power of GREY KNIGHTS.

I'm not up on the current meta, so didn't want to make statements I don't know are accurate

Although that is rather your point; tournament play is a sub-set of 40k (it's a more specialised sub-set of Matched Play), so you have to give something up to allow for it. Unfortunately that might end up being entire armies. :(

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Although that is rather your point; tournament play is a sub-set of 40k (it's a more specialised sub-set of Matched Play), so you have to give something up to allow for it. Unfortunately that might end up being entire armies. :(

Sure. As long as tournament organizer is then playing fair and not take money from armies that tournament organizer has effectively banned.

Assuming the tournament info pack says that the games will run for a set time, you would think that players who usually field a lot of models would realise their army wouldn't be suitable. I'm not sure explicitly saying "no Orks" or whatever is really necessary. Just say "Games will last for 2 hours, no exceptions. If you can't complete a turn in 20 minutes, that's on you."

And not everyone is attending the Tournament with a 'must win it' mindset.

Sure, there are those who do so. But for many, it's just a way to enjoy their chosen hobby with new faces, and new challenges.

But, if someone fields a traditional Goff Ork list, then complains that the time limit stuffed them? No mate. You're thinking of your lack of forward planning there!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And not everyone is attending the Tournament with a 'must win it' mindset.

Sure, there are those who do so. But for many, it's just a way to enjoy their chosen hobby with new faces, and new challenges.

But, if someone fields a traditional Goff Ork list, then complains that the time limit stuffed them? No mate. You're thinking of your lack of forward planning there!

There's difference about "must win" attitude and not wanting to lose by default EVERY GAME. Not many people will find games fun if a) they can't win b) they can't even play to the end. Just because tournaments stick to point sizes which were in first place increased when GW increased cost of models a lot and then followed by massive price decreases.

Tournaments are doing GW great favour by voluntarily forcing more and more models to be bought. And thus effectively banning entire armies. It's not like orks even have alternatives.

If 2h really is all you have time(time which btw is tight even for tank heavy IG army as I have found personally for ~1600 pts!) then lower the point costs. There's no universal rule 40k games must be 2k.

And I dare say that there's others like me (well, when I actually get an army painted!) that want to push themselves by taking a list not specifically optimised* for Tournament play - to see whether I've got the tactical chops to still bust out win after win.


*I actually hate that word. Hates I do. It's just so....meaningless. I also hate 'top tier army' and 'sub-optimal'. So nyeah. Not relevant at all. But nyeah!


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There's definitely an onus on the TO to match the time to the size.

No point making it a 2,500 point limit, then giving 1.5 hours per game.

... but people can play 2k ork lists in 2.5 hours!!

The index is not taken out of the equation, it's just players that can't handle the list quickly enough have to spend time improving their time management or take a less onerous list. I bet the players who say they can't run an ork horde list don't use movement trays, group their dice, practice deployment and decide/measure their movement in the opponents turn rather than waiting until their own turn. Tournaments have to be timed games, there is no alternative and 3 hr+ games would mean less games and some players who do play quickly kicking their heels between rounds. Lower points games seem don't appear to be seen as a popular option for those who attend tournaments (I'm happy to drop to 1,5k but many aren't) so if the time and size of lists can't change the only option is to learn to play faster. Orks not being able to play a game in 2.5 hours is just not true, you just need to get a move on; leisurely play, tournaments and horde lists don't go together, you need to chose!

It was just an example!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It was just an example!

Well what did you expect?
For the record time constraints in regard to infantry heavy armies are also a thing in Warmachine. Remember in Warmachine every model attacks one at a time. So if you run 50 dudes thats 50 sets of hit and armor penetration rolls you need to make as well as remembering and playing out special rules.

Generally it's accepted that if you want to play a horde army you're welcome to because you accept the risk of clocking out. It's you're choice so you take on the burden of having put yourself at a disadvantage.

 Denny wrote:
It makes the whole tournament thing a little farcical though if you cannot play a horde army because it takes too long, or an assault army if the short time-limit favours shooty armies.

40K makes no mention of time limits in the rule book and whatever balance exists in the game is going to be thrown further out of wack by the imposition of time limits.

No idea what the solution should be.
Well, it should be that games last as long as they last (which instantly removes any issues of slow play or army selection) but I can see why that isn't feasible for a tournament.

Personally this just strikes me as further evidence that 40K is not suited for tournament play, but YMMV.

All sorts of things are introduced in tournament play that aren’t in the main rule book.

Whole new scenarios, round times, expected behaviors, etc

The best solution to deliberate slow playing would simply be for the event organiser(s) to make it clear that it won't be tolerated, and then have tournament judges actively punish those who are obviously guilty of it.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It was just an example!

Well what did you expect?
For the record time constraints in regard to infantry heavy armies are also a thing in Warmachine. Remember in Warmachine every model attacks one at a time. So if you run 50 dudes thats 50 sets of hit and armor penetration rolls you need to make as well as remembering and playing out special rules.

Generally it's accepted that if you want to play a horde army you're welcome to because you accept the risk of clocking out. It's you're choice so you take on the burden of having put yourself at a disadvantage.

True but WMH has a more robust scoring system that tend to minimise time problems, I'd imagine 40k meta would be somewhat different if Slay the Warlord or getting 5 (6?) VP ahead ended the game

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It was just an example!

Well what did you expect?
For the record time constraints in regard to infantry heavy armies are also a thing in Warmachine. Remember in Warmachine every model attacks one at a time. So if you run 50 dudes thats 50 sets of hit and armor penetration rolls you need to make as well as remembering and playing out special rules.

Generally it's accepted that if you want to play a horde army you're welcome to because you accept the risk of clocking out. It's you're choice so you take on the burden of having put yourself at a disadvantage.

True but WMH has a more robust scoring system that tend to minimise time problems, I'd imagine 40k meta would be somewhat different if Slay the Warlord or getting 5 (6?) VP ahead ended the game

Don't most tournaments use altered scenario rules anyway though? I don't see why they can't rewrite the tournnament scenarios to accomodated a deathclock.

Most likely, but I think the existing variations that ITC etc run are most likely as far as it'll go, and GW aren't going to use resources to come up with a Steamroller type tournament mission pack just to satisfy a very small slice of the playerbase

 Denny wrote:
It makes the whole tournament thing a little farcical though if you cannot play a horde army because it takes too long, or an assault army if the short time-limit favours shooty armies.

It's already farcical. At the LVO you only had a shot if you took a broken unit and spammed it to oblivion. A tournament should strive for a balanced fair event for players, not for fair representation in regard to armies. I own horde armies and super elite armies, I am not stupid enough to attend any tournament with 150+ models, heck, I am reluctant to field 75+


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tneva82 wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Although that is rather your point; tournament play is a sub-set of 40k (it's a more specialised sub-set of Matched Play), so you have to give something up to allow for it. Unfortunately that might end up being entire armies. :(

Sure. As long as tournament organizer is then playing fair and not take money from armies that tournament organizer has effectively banned.

Hog wash. Are they supposed to hold your hand while you cross the street too? At some point players need to own up to their responsibility. If your too much of a novice to realize a 200 model army probably won't finish games in a timed event, then you probably to much of a novice to be attending a competitive event. Stick to narrative or play another army. All the tournaments I can think of tell you how long rounds are slotted for, players should consider that plenty of warning.

I do wonder how much of these tournament restrictions bleed into the normal 'meta' (god I hate that word)

'Dark Reapers are OP'

Are they? Or are they OP in a tournament with time limit restrictions and a disincentive to take hordes?

Dunno. They might be OP anyway, but I do hope that players realise that you cannot judge which unit/codex/army is OP in a 'standard' game of 40K if you introduce additional restrictions not supported by the core game.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Hog wash. Are they supposed to hold your hand while you cross the street too? At some point players need to own up to their responsibility. If your too much of a novice to realize a 200 model army probably won't finish games in a timed event, then you probably to much of a novice to be attending a competitive event. Stick to narrative or play another army. All the tournaments I can think of tell you how long rounds are slotted for, players should consider that plenty of warning.

Again: Ork players don't have any option. They either take tons of boyz or they lose. Simple as that. They likely lose anyway even if they take boyz in unlimited time but if they take anything but boyz swarm they lose period.

So if tournament organizer makes time limits that don't allow playing orks with any chance of victory it's plain greed for tempting any ork players to attend at all giving in money. Especially when there's options. Honest options would be to either increase game length or drop point cost. Point costs which btw are GW's money making greed scheme. Keep upping point costs, keep lowering model points=more models=more money. Why players follow GW's greedy plans like lemmings is another thing.

tneva82 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Hog wash. Are they supposed to hold your hand while you cross the street too? At some point players need to own up to their responsibility. If your too much of a novice to realize a 200 model army probably won't finish games in a timed event, then you probably to much of a novice to be attending a competitive event. Stick to narrative or play another army. All the tournaments I can think of tell you how long rounds are slotted for, players should consider that plenty of warning.

Again: Ork players don't have any option. They either take tons of boyz or they lose. Simple as that. They likely lose anyway even if they take boyz in unlimited time but if they take anything but boyz swarm they lose period.

So if tournament organizer makes time limits that don't allow playing orks with any chance of victory it's plain greed for tempting any ork players to attend at all giving in money. Especially when there's options. Honest options would be to either increase game length or drop point cost. Point costs which btw are GW's money making greed scheme. Keep upping point costs, keep lowering model points=more models=more money. Why players follow GW's greedy plans like lemmings is another thing.

Show me the Ork player who practices deploying/first turn movement, uses movement trays (why not, no blast templates), groups dice, knows all his stats and doesn't waste time thinking about moves in his own turn and I'll show you the Ork players who can play 4 rounds in 2.5 hours. Nid, IG, Ork infantry lists can all be played at tournaments - it just needs some commitment, planning and hard work to do so. If some players can so it why can't all - generally lack of preparation; I've seen the players spending 20+ mins getting the models out of their cases at the start of the game and then they wonder why they run out of time? if you can't deploy and play first turn in an hour then you need to look at where you're wasting the time and do something about it rather than blaming the TO!

As to how competitive Index orks are is entirely irrelevant here, the issue is if you take that list you learn how to play it before you turn up to a timed event.

Using the Assault Dice app in a tournament seems like one thing to help hordes compete.

tneva82 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Hog wash. Are they supposed to hold your hand while you cross the street too? At some point players need to own up to their responsibility. If your too much of a novice to realize a 200 model army probably won't finish games in a timed event, then you probably to much of a novice to be attending a competitive event. Stick to narrative or play another army. All the tournaments I can think of tell you how long rounds are slotted for, players should consider that plenty of warning.

Again: Ork players don't have any option. They either take tons of boyz or they lose. Simple as that. They likely lose anyway even if they take boyz in unlimited time but if they take anything but boyz swarm they lose period.

So if tournament organizer makes time limits that don't allow playing orks with any chance of victory it's plain greed for tempting any ork players to attend at all giving in money. Especially when there's options. Honest options would be to either increase game length or drop point cost. Point costs which btw are GW's money making greed scheme. Keep upping point costs, keep lowering model points=more models=more money. Why players follow GW's greedy plans like lemmings is another thing.

I've seen a couple of ork lists make passable performance with 20 - 28 mek gunz. Not tourney winning, but midtable respectable.

I just don't buy that because someone takes a green tide list that they should have special concessions made for them.

When I go to a Warmahordes tournament and I bring Old Witch (who is considered a low tier model and I know it) and 40 infantry I don't walk up to the TO and say "I'm playing Old Witch and my turns take a lot of careful planning and working things out, can you please make a special exception on the death clock for me? Also she can't deal with armour so can you please make sure I don't match up with any ARM skew lists?" What I do do is practice her to death, know her rules inside and out and know exactly what to do in any given situation and be prepared.

When you go to a competitive event you go KNOWING what to expect then the only person at fault for being unprepared or taking a sub-par list is you. If you want to play orks then go ahead, but you do so KNOWING it will be an uphill struggle. You shouldn't expect people to treat you differently because you CHOSE a difficult path. That's on you.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I just don't buy that because someone takes a green tide list that they should have special concessions made for them.

This was my main point. Tournaments are not supposed to strive for making every army faction and list build type playable, they are supposed to provide a smooth and fair environment to play a game that was never intended for competition. This makes the job difficult enough. If you want to play an Ork horde army then do it in open play and not timed events. This idea that everything needs to start on a level base is idiotic. Tournaments already create an artificial meta that becomes even more evolved depending on whos organizing it. The meta is part of the deal and unfortunate as it may be, massive armies have never been great in any meta since tournaments have been held for 40k. Ironically 8th edition is the first edition to LOWER the hurdles by removing blasts and scatter, making things like these possible:



My IG army runs at least 70 guardsmen and I can tell you that using those trays I actually finish deploying before some of the grey knight players I have faced. It's called knowing how to play in the environment and having a game plan before you get there. Ork deployment is one of the EASIEST things in the game to do when your running hordes and dropping 10 boys at a time using those bases should make deployment and movement last seconds per mob.

PS they come in 20 and most providers will make you custom ones if you email them.




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