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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Silentz wrote:
Nidzrule! wrote:
Given that etc

You know what the ETC is gak at compared to ITC?

Marketing and PR.

The ETC barely has a web presence. It's virtually invisible. I think there was a forum once but it's dead, isn't it?

Find me the official and up to date ETC rulespack. I fething challenge you! Now compare that experience to finding the ITC champions missions.


Lol, I have a feeling you’re trolling good sir but I will bite anyways:

1) The ETC does not need marketing. It is well known and every team in the world is aware of the rulespack. The missions are available via Facebook groups or Emailed to team captains. It is a TEAM event which countries can utilise for their own tournaments to practice in preparation for the event.

2) I can send you the rulespack if you’d like, but a prime example is Caledonian Uprising utilises the majority of the rules including a 30 page FAQ which is regularly updated.


and if I want to attend the ETC mission using events? Sorry I'm not on a team and the rulespack is only sent to team captains and those on teams? I googled ETC mission pack because I was looking for the missions we will be playing at Caledonian and LGT. Came up with nada, I've scraped some stuff together so me and my friends attended can half learn it. Seems a bit like a club where you have to know the right people to get the right information......

3) The scoreboard is great but in the past we used something called Rankings HQ. A lot of players (including on that ITC rankings board) just attend small tourneys to get more points and whoever attend the most of these unheard of tourneys in the middle of nowhere will end up topping the charts. It doesn't work. The only way a rankings table works is if it is regulated by a certain number of tourneys and by that those tourneys must be registered and proven to contain players that exist and the tourney should have a minimum of…say 60 players. It is a nightmare to create something like that, and the UK scene has never been bothered about it.


Hence why the ITC says you can have a max number of RTT's and afterwards only GT's and Majors count. Also your score is multiplied by the number of players attending so the larger events are worth more. So you can't just farm points at the small events. Even then it only takes your top 5 scores. Aside from allowing smaller events (to a limit) the scoring system is literally what you described. farming small events wouldn't work anyway due to the multiplication of your score by participants. You also can't just declare your event an ITC event. You have to contact FLG and provide information on your event before they will ssue you with a code to upload your scores to the rankings.


4) As for the batreps and live twitch streaming, that is because FLG/ITC is run by a company. No one in the UK has that capacity at the moment, however if someone steps up, I’m sure it will work! One lad is attemtping to start something similar, Dan Bates from Spartan Wargames (New company with his own Twitch Stream)


Fair point, though the UK has plenty of bat rep and content producers, nobody is on FLG's level right now.

5) Want to know how to apply to the ETC? ASK!!!!! I am a member and we have been publicly announcing events which we attend on the facebook page “Team England 40k Community”… Search it on Facebook, ANYONE can gain access to it and see where and when we will be there. Come up to us, introduce yourself. We are a group of FRIENDS. What is the use in making a “table” to see if you are good enough by attending all these events we have never heard of when the basics of a TEAM is to know each other? Come chat, play some games at our numerous practice weekends and lets see if you really are any good. If we use a scoring system, we end up with 2 or 3 guys whom aren’t actually up to standards, never even played with before and don’t hav the time to practice with us? Yes that comes across as a secret club, but we take it very serious and if some random guy takes up one of our positions (which is more than welcome to if proven worthwhile) then we’d like to at least know them and get on with them. It’s a huge social week of drinking, laughing and gaming, it’s a good start to know us?


My issue is again that whilst the actual ETC event is indeed this the ETC missions and rules packs seep into a lot of other events and the players not on the ETC team (whether through choice or exclusivity is an argument we can leave for now) are at a disadvantage as they do not have access to the rules pack. I shouldn't be needing to message some chap who i think is on team england to find out how the missions work at a public event anyone can go to. That information should be in the rules pack or widely available. It would be extremely easy for someone (say you for example) to copy it into a google doc and post it in a few easy to access locations. Perhaps a dakka topic stickied to the top of the relevant section entitled 'etc rulespack' so a google search would reveal it. It'd take all of two minutes. Not bothering to do it is more of what leads to this feeling of the ETC being exclusive and a boys club where you have to know the right people instead of being accessible and open like ITC.
If i don't want to be on the ETC but want to attend events which play ETC missions I'm left out in the cold as are the vast majority of people.
Reece Robbins has often said the ITC is about getting people to travel and play lots of people, meet lots of people and play lots of games. About spreading the 40k community.
From the outside looking in the ETC is about getting a select few together to play your special version of 40k and argue amongst each other whos the best and why that makes you better than everyone else.




   
Made in gb
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller





KillswitchUK wrote:

Lol, I have a feeling you’re trolling good sir but I will bite anyways:

I wasn't trolling at all, I assure you. I was just saying what I think. What a random British occasional tourney player sees. The things I see as underlying reasons why people worldwide see ITC as the pinnacle of competitive play and get surprised when people say otherwise.

Some of the things you posted are great but others sort of confirm my view - I hate doing this because it's fiddly to post but I will go point by point.

>> Edit to add that Sneggy is clearly a much faster ranter than I am!


KillswitchUK wrote:

1) The ETC does not need marketing. It is well known and every team in the world is aware of the rulespack. The missions are available via Facebook groups or Emailed to team captains. It is a TEAM event which countries can utilise for their own tournaments to practice in preparation for the event.

Everything needs marketing. The more refined and high level something is, the more marketing it needs. The ETC feels like if they played the World Cup quietly in the background and didn't tell you much about it. You can see the results afterwards if you are on the right groups, but you don't get to watch it or know what tactics they used.

One of your initial points was "Where's the discussion after Cally?"
Well, who's leading that discussion?


KillswitchUK wrote:

2) I can send you the rulespack if you’d like, but a prime example is Caledonian Uprising utilises the majority of the rules including a 30 page FAQ which is regularly updated.

I've played in Cally events - I know the rulespack CAN be found, but the fact you might send it to me rather than just link me up is symptomatic.
I guess my point here is that the ITC appears to be attempting to be a standardised competitive rulespack for everyone to use. Whereas, to be fair, the ETC is not attempting to do that.


KillswitchUK wrote:

3) The scoreboard

4) As for the batreps and live twitch streaming, that is because FLG/ITC is run by a company. No one in the UK has that capacity at the moment, however if someone steps up, I’m sure it will work! One lad is attemtping to start something similar, Dan Bates from Spartan Wargames (New company with his own Twitch Stream)

6) As for the Scene needing more access to knowledge on gameplay, its not cheap to setup a rig like the LVO. The London GT comes close but we are getting there. Problem is the 40k scene diminished in 6th and 7th and is only just picking back up, and GW streaming just wont work (poor effort to promote competitive play/lists and no knowledge of tactical commentary).

None of this is impossible though. It's just work, which is what Reece seems to have put in over a few years to grow his brands.
It feels like Element could do this, but having the combo of personalities+sponsorship/revenue is hard. They do sponsor Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics but the relationship between Element and Tabletop Tactics is more of a silent sponsor.

The Honest Wargamer (Rob, ex Warhammer TV) is having a punt at it

Not seen the spartan stuff. Will have a look tonight.

KillswitchUK wrote:

5) Want to know how to apply to the ETC? ASK!!!!!

I am 100% sure this is true. I'm not criticizing this system. It's not impossible it's just a totally different model.

ITC is like the World Series of Poker during the poker boom. It's thrilling because it standardised the way the game is presented, and anyone could win.



Anyway I am not criticizing anyone really - the ETC is a cool thing. But you can't try and be the little guys who don't market themselves and don't tell anyone about your games, then claim to be the best of the best. How can a random guy in California believe or verify that?


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/21 16:34:41


TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.

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 Silentz wrote:


Edit to add that Sneggy is clearly a much faster ranter than I am!



*Sneggy is clearly extremely bored at work.


You make many good points. All of which I agree with. I think you made my points much more eloquently then i did.
But mostly I'm posting to say I'm bored at work and have mad typing skills.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/21 16:39:29


   
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Southeastern PA, USA

I think it helps if one conceptualizes most large events and circuits as 'mega-clubs' in which players come together to play the game under a particular set of house rules.

And it's hard for me to take any of them seriously as the 'best' or 'pinnacle' when we're effectively talking about club championships. How does one weigh one club championship versus another? *shrug*

I wish GW would get back into the tourney business in the U.S. so that those of us who are less into (event)hammer had more options. It isn't gonna happen, but I can dream.

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Probably work

Yeah, from the point of view of someone who's spent some time playing competitively for years in the States, I've heard the ETC exists, but I don't know you from the wind.


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Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 gorgon wrote:
I think it helps if one conceptualizes most large events and circuits as 'mega-clubs' in which players come together to play the game under a particular set of house rules.

And it's hard for me to take any of them seriously as the 'best' or 'pinnacle' when we're effectively talking about club championships. How does one weigh one club championship versus another? *shrug*

I wish GW would get back into the tourney business in the U.S. so that those of us who are less into (event)hammer had more options. It isn't gonna happen, but I can dream.


Well those are atm most competive tournaments out there. Gw running their owns don't make those any more "best". What matters is who come to tournaments. If all best players go to non-gw then gw tournaments are the minor ones.

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tneva82 wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
I think it helps if one conceptualizes most large events and circuits as 'mega-clubs' in which players come together to play the game under a particular set of house rules.

And it's hard for me to take any of them seriously as the 'best' or 'pinnacle' when we're effectively talking about club championships. How does one weigh one club championship versus another? *shrug*

I wish GW would get back into the tourney business in the U.S. so that those of us who are less into (event)hammer had more options. It isn't gonna happen, but I can dream.


Well those are atm most competive tournaments out there. Gw running their owns don't make those any more "best". What matters is who come to tournaments. If all best players go to non-gw then gw tournaments are the minor ones.


The problem is in how you define best. You throw the LVO people at a GW-CA tournament and I think you'd see a fair amount of shake-up and vice-versa. The only thing we know right now is that the LVO people are very good at ITC missions and these people are good at CA missions. There's no way for us to objectively measure best unless/until they start crossing over more.
   
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Southeastern PA, USA

I do think that good players will certainly adapt well from format to format. I'm just not sure how one can compare results across formats very well unless we're talking about very similar formats. At least in the U.S., certain events are known for having very particular terrain setups that can affect strategies and gameplay before one even gets to missions and house rulings. There are many variables involved.

I also don't think the attendance (or lack thereof) of 'star' personalities necessarily determines the competitiveness of a given event. It's certainly beneficial to market personalities when you're trying to push a 'pro tour' of 'Warhammer athletes'. And unfortunately that has even led to special treatment at times. But there are very skilled players out there who just don't have the interest or time to chase the meta within a given format and/or travel all over to attend events.

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The problem that the ETC has is that it is done by volunteers who love the game and are borderline obsessives. EVEN then they are not obsessive enough to have turned that into a job. Reece and his team have done a great job with FLG but to be honest it is ALSO their livelihood. I think its just crazy how Mike Brandt has done what he's done with Nova given he also has a full time job but Mike I think is a crazy exception rather than the rule.

ETC does need marketing and god knows as the years have passed it has become harder and harder to get information. The issue is one of who is willing to part with the considerable time and effort which is required to publicise the ETC for what really is still a volunteer system? This might happen a year or two years but how can this become consistent support? That's the ETC challenge. Also TWF has died a death in terms of traffic and that was a forum that UK tourney players used to gather and chew fat. Unfortunately that's gone. Also Rankings HQ died a death because there just was not enough support in the end.

Point is that at least there are now more players more aware of the rich history of the 40k tournament scene in the UK and they can now help spread the word.

I have been aware of operational dramas around the ETC and I have still amazed at how everyone has gritted and gone on with putting the ETC show on the road year in and out.

Btw those comments about ETC as being a bit of a gentleman's club are unfortunately bang on target. But there's no reason why that cant change. Good luck to Dan B, he'll need grit and effort to take this forward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Gorgon

GW has made the business decision to restart tournaments but only to do these as renaissance man style tournaments in the UK. You may remember that they did Hard Boyz but you may also remember that there were a number of controversies, etc. Anyway, for the time being, they are supporting FLG and Nova which is good, we'll see if they do more in the US.

With regards to whether a event's lists are competitive, you can easily judge for yourself. Find the winning lists, try and understand what the player is trying to do with it and decide if it beats the internet superlist of the day. Go and google the Caledonian lists. Simon Weakley who won it has done something particular with his Tyranid list that means that it eats Ynnari Reaper spam for lunch. I think he smashed Max Barton who was the Heat 2 winner. Its godawfully painful and spammy list but that;s what Simon was aiming for, to win HARSHly but fairly. Btw I'm not saying that Simon's list is the be all and end all but you'll get the principle of what the current meta is and you can then adjust for your own event. Use Simon's knowledge because he's done the groundwork for you but dont just copy it. Next big event is LGT and I'm interested to see what the meta is like with Custodes out. Not sure if there's enough in Custodes to lift Imperial soup above the line but we will see.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/21 20:18:06


 
   
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 Crimson Devil wrote:


That's incorrect. The ITC has very few rules changes this season. The main difference is their custom missions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bUs0HrJ3f6YzR6mWlT1LRLq0i9_0ekf7ah9WhCTxsIo/edit#heading=h.xdqssu9alogj


There is no greater change to the game than mission rules.

Throw out the psychic phase and ban psykers, some 50% of the armies out there won't care.

Double the movement rate for all units in the game, and gunlines won't be affected.

Allow both sides to score first blood either via first strike or ITC-style old school houserule, and EVERY SINGLE GAME is fundamentally changed directly at the win-condition.

These changes are among the most drastic and incisive you can do to the game short of changing the dice to D12 or dropping IGO-UGO or something like this.


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/22 02:17:54


 
   
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So your premise is custom missions equal heavily houseruled. I don't think you've thought your arguement through.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 02:38:03


 
   
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 Crimson Devil wrote:
So your premise is custom missions equal heavily houseruled. I don't think you've thought your arguement through.


I am saying that changing win-parameters will change the dynamic of the game, strategic consideration going into army building, deployment, etc.., thus the "meta".

Using first blood as an example, having the option to counter/re-coup first blood through first strike/old school/etc.. makes "losing" first blood to the opponent less critical, thus making weaker units on the board (e.g. for building large, CP-farming detachments or for holding a spot for your DS units) somewhat less of a liability, as you're less likely to put yourself at a 1 point disadvantage (doubly so for ITC, where 1 point difference is less meaningful in the overall score).


Thus it changes the considerations people need to make about winning, thus changes the armies, thus creating a different game dynamic.

I cannot for the life of me consider that an "insignificant change". It fundamentally changes strategies, armies and, most importantly, the actual win/lose conditions determining who walks away as the victor and/or loser, which is doubly important for tournaments/competitive, where the game result is the factor placing you on the score board.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 03:01:41


 
   
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So, just to prove a point about the ETC (well i'm presuming it's the ETC rules pack - as it's the rules pack for the London Grand Tournament) it can be found online -

https://www.lgtpresents.co.uk/40kgt
https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/a7e101_fcd941316ad84f13a7e563f9d78fa9bb.pdf

The FAQ link doesn't work though, so no idea what's on the "30 page FAQ".

As an ETC "outsider", i've not heard much about the format, and most of that was towards the start of 8th Ed when ETC was the cause for all the Flyer nerfs etc. Since then, i've not really heard a great deal about it's results, impacts etc.

The LGT is one of the bigger events in the UK in terms of attendees (don't know if i can see "biggest" right now due to the GW Heats), but, that's the reason why i'm attending it for the first time this year - not because it is ETC.

If i'm honest, i wouldn't have a clue how many people are in a team, let alone who was on Team England. Nor would i have any idea what events were coming up for it.

Though - now i know a facebook group exists, i will probably take a look at it, and go from there.
   
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Kdash wrote:
So, just to prove a point about the ETC (well i'm presuming it's the ETC rules pack - as it's the rules pack for the London Grand Tournament) it can be found online -


But how fast? ETC rules pack to google. Lets see...First result: Thread about discussion about voting for point sizes etc. Next The CanHammer Team Tournament is a modified ETC Warhammer 40k event. Modified? Doesn't sound like one I can find current official rules. 3rd actually leads to ITC pack. Then thread into dakka dakka asking where to get. Bit later gets you 2015 rules. Yey! Just kinda old...Next up...2013 version. 2014, 2017 for warmahordes...

Idea of ETC is nice enough if you enjoy competive tournaments(I don't) but in terms of visibility and access to rules ITC wins hands down.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/22 10:39:42


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We have tried to make the ETC as transparent substrate as possible. We promote it through indy events (wearing team England shirts so everyone knows who to approach for example) promoting it on Facebook through the Team England 40k Community Page and through podcasts (Caledonian podcast, allies of convenience all speak about the ETC)

I have taken a lot of advice on board however and will be trying to promote it better by allowing Brits access to rules packs and faq changes via a website which we will be creating soon and updating with all sorts of things similar to FLG. Hopefully we can not only spread the love but also promote a healthy 40k scene which revolves around the fantastically well rounded rulespack
   
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Two thumbs up.

Big (but constructive) discussion and don't think this is a criticism. I've never spoken to you but I see more local people like Gaz J wearing his Team England shirt to events all the time, and he's super approachable and chilled.

The missions I've played have also (again, my opinion) been much better than the ITC missions - you feel like you are playing standard 40k but dialled up in complexity to ensure it's fair to hordes and elites etc.

The ITC champions missions are like a separate game, in many ways. With some accountancy and book-keeping tacked on for "fun".

If you need some volunteer assistance in any way, let me know. Could help with a little bit of content creation or do a website or something if needed.

TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.

Read the blog at:
https://deathbeforedishonour.co.uk/blog 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Yeh ive been in talks with a community based website so I will bear that in mind...for now however, here is last year's ETC pack which has yet to be updated to include Killpoints in every mission upto a +-6 point difference effecting the overall 20-0 system:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzus0DMobfGYcUdGRXJ1amZQWTQ/view
   
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KillswitchUK wrote:
We have tried to make the ETC as transparent substrate as possible. We promote it through indy events (wearing team England shirts so everyone knows who to approach for example) promoting it on Facebook through the Team England 40k Community Page and through podcasts (Caledonian podcast, allies of convenience all speak about the ETC)

I have taken a lot of advice on board however and will be trying to promote it better by allowing Brits access to rules packs and faq changes via a website which we will be creating soon and updating with all sorts of things similar to FLG. Hopefully we can not only spread the love but also promote a healthy 40k scene which revolves around the fantastically well rounded rulespack


That helps in UK and is all nice but what about outside UK? Doesn't help much finding out about it outside UK.

I'm in Finland so waaaaay away from closest ITC event. Yet I can find rules pack and basically all the info easily by google. No need to know anybody. No need to ask anybody. No need to go to any tournament to find in person somebody who can help.

One might get impression ETC rules pack is national secret seeing how in this world of free hosting options by galore there's not easily found site you can find the latest rules pack!

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Well Finland has their own team and ways of promoting it but yes I see your point and it's something myself and a few others will be looking at in creating a European community based website which not only provides knowledge of the ETC, it's rules pack etc but also battle reports, tactical videos, list building, podcast, competitions, tournaments held around Europe etc.

Watch this space I'm hoping to build something on the foundation of FLG but European based which we are lacking here.
   
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UK

Sounds good, looking forward to seeing what comes up.

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McCragge

 Ordana wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Maybe not the "meta", but certainly 40K.

That's the point. LVO & co are so heavily houseruled, it's not really 40K anyhow in any shape, way or form. If ETC/LVO lists inform the ETC/LVO meta and all that, fine. But it's a microcosm playing by its own rules.


That's incorrect. The ITC has very few rules changes this season. The main difference is their custom missions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bUs0HrJ3f6YzR6mWlT1LRLq0i9_0ekf7ah9WhCTxsIo/edit#heading=h.xdqssu9alogj
I think ITC missions, especially the use of secondaries, can significantly shift a meta compared to the 'base' game.


The ITC missions were designed with NOVA and GW development - they are very eighth edition - the ability to choose your secondaries makes more armies competitive. Have you played any of these missions?

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
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 Crimson Devil wrote:
So your premise is custom missions equal heavily houseruled. I don't think you've thought your arguement through.

It's semantics. Ultimately the argument is that by so radically changing the obectives of the game, you have effectively changed the game itself.

One issue with the ITC champions missions is that the traditional progressive scoring model is being challenged by short game length...3-4 turns. With 4 turns to play a game, and each turn being worth at most 4 points (cause getting that 5th point is usually impossible), you have about 16 points max from the primary mission, 50% of which is achieved by "killyness". The secondary objectives amount to a max of 12 points, of which least 8 can usually be achieved by killing stuff. The net effect is that often in a game it is the SECONDARY objectives that net more points than the PRIMARY, meaning that building your army to achieve/deny those secondaries is a more sure path to victory. But a more insidious effect is that killing your opponent (i.e. building your army to table) is equally valid as taking and holding objectives; and perhaps better because you can potentially achieve the "kill" secondaries in 1-2 turns while the "objective" secondaries are usually a 1pt/turn reward. And by rewarding both camping for multiple turns AND blowing your enemy off the table you have created a situation that favors the exact army type progressive scoring was supposed to eliminate: Gunlines.
The reason people are following the UK results (and tolerating the above ETC -measuring contest between dakka-ites) is that they represent a different type of game, and after LVO/ITC dominating the web for the past year it's refreshing to see something different being played at a high level.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
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 greyknight12 wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
So your premise is custom missions equal heavily houseruled. I don't think you've thought your arguement through.

It's semantics. Ultimately the argument is that by so radically changing the obectives of the game, you have effectively changed the game itself.

One issue with the ITC champions missions is that the traditional progressive scoring model is being challenged by short game length...3-4 turns. With 4 turns to play a game, and each turn being worth at most 4 points (cause getting that 5th point is usually impossible), you have about 16 points max from the primary mission, 50% of which is achieved by "killyness". The secondary objectives amount to a max of 12 points, of which least 8 can usually be achieved by killing stuff. The net effect is that often in a game it is the SECONDARY objectives that net more points than the PRIMARY, meaning that building your army to achieve/deny those secondaries is a more sure path to victory. But a more insidious effect is that killing your opponent (i.e. building your army to table) is equally valid as taking and holding objectives; and perhaps better because you can potentially achieve the "kill" secondaries in 1-2 turns while the "objective" secondaries are usually a 1pt/turn reward. And by rewarding both camping for multiple turns AND blowing your enemy off the table you have created a situation that favors the exact army type progressive scoring was supposed to eliminate: Gunlines.
The reason people are following the UK results (and tolerating the above ETC -measuring contest between dakka-ites) is that they represent a different type of game, and after LVO/ITC dominating the web for the past year it's refreshing to see something different being played at a high level.


I agree with this.
ITC missions severely limit your army choices. Since it is not uncommon for an ITC turn to end 3-2 on primary objectives, it is secondaries that will win you the game when you are evenly matched.

If you want to be good on secondaries, you have to respect a lot of additional rules for list building, just look for example at the effects of Gangbuster. Forget about any high wound model unit with high model count and less than stellar defenses. In ITC you will never see thousand son playing spawns, tyranids playing big warrior units, orks playing nobs, tau playing suits... You are playing units that cost less than 200 points and yet are worth 4 points to your opponent!

This is just one example, but all the secondaries represent a big series of "NO!" when building your list.

Also, there is a reason why Eldar dominated LVO. They don't bleed secondaries. Since there is nothing that punishes high cost single wound or double wound models in units smaller than 10, Dark Reapers and shining spears become even stronger than usual. You will not score kingslayer and headhunter, because they only play small buffing chars that are kept well safe. Gangbuster? Lol no. Reaper? Maybe 1 point from the 19 guardian units. The only headhunter targets you will find are wave serpents.
Don't think that the eldar lists that won the LVO would be as good in a GW Heat. That 5/8 Eldar lists were there because ITC rules seem custom made for Eldar's current top builds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/23 05:13:26


 
   
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I'd never realised that. It would make a big difference especially in a tournament enviroment where every advantage counts. Especially a reliable (not-random) one.




 
   
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KillswitchUK wrote:
Well Finland has their own team and ways of promoting it but yes I see your point and it's something myself and a few others will be looking at in creating a European community based website which not only provides knowledge of the ETC, it's rules pack etc but also battle reports, tactical videos, list building, podcast, competitions, tournaments held around Europe etc.

Watch this space I'm hoping to build something on the foundation of FLG but European based which we are lacking here.


Yeah I'm not expecting super hyper detailed site with battle reports, live streams and what not(those would be cool but definitely extra work!). But one official site that has say contact information for each country's people in charge updated as well as possible along with current up to date rules would go long way IMO. Anything beyond that(links to tournaments using these rules etc) would be interesting bonus but not essential.

Maybe updating above info is more work than I imagine which is why there's no such site though.

What you are planning to do sounds good Hopefully it works out!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/23 09:18:45


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 Primark G wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Maybe not the "meta", but certainly 40K.

That's the point. LVO & co are so heavily houseruled, it's not really 40K anyhow in any shape, way or form. If ETC/LVO lists inform the ETC/LVO meta and all that, fine. But it's a microcosm playing by its own rules.


That's incorrect. The ITC has very few rules changes this season. The main difference is their custom missions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bUs0HrJ3f6YzR6mWlT1LRLq0i9_0ekf7ah9WhCTxsIo/edit#heading=h.xdqssu9alogj
I think ITC missions, especially the use of secondaries, can significantly shift a meta compared to the 'base' game.


The ITC missions were designed with NOVA and GW development - they are very eighth edition - the ability to choose your secondaries makes more armies competitive. Have you played any of these missions?
As others have said, the secondaries kill a ton of army builds because it is secondaries that decide the winner 99 times out of 100 and having the 'wrong' unit means you give away a ton of easy points there.

   
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Tampa, FL

That seems like a huge flaw that just encourages more emphasis on list building as the primary skill. I like the concept of the ITC missions but I find they are even more egregious at cutting out huge swathes of options than what you already see in matched play

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/23 12:17:07


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
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McCragge

 Ordana wrote:
 Primark G wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
Maybe not the "meta", but certainly 40K.

That's the point. LVO & co are so heavily houseruled, it's not really 40K anyhow in any shape, way or form. If ETC/LVO lists inform the ETC/LVO meta and all that, fine. But it's a microcosm playing by its own rules.


That's incorrect. The ITC has very few rules changes this season. The main difference is their custom missions.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bUs0HrJ3f6YzR6mWlT1LRLq0i9_0ekf7ah9WhCTxsIo/edit#heading=h.xdqssu9alogj
I think ITC missions, especially the use of secondaries, can significantly shift a meta compared to the 'base' game.


The ITC missions were designed with NOVA and GW development - they are very eighth edition - the ability to choose your secondaries makes more armies competitive. Have you played any of these missions?
As others have said, the secondaries kill a ton of army builds because it is secondaries that decide the winner 99 times out of 100 and having the 'wrong' unit means you give away a ton of easy points there.



Actually you win ITC Missions by dominating the primary objectives. That’s what you should focus on winning.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
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 Primark G wrote:
Actually you win ITC Missions by dominating the primary objectives. That’s what you should focus on winning.

Sure in theory, but in actual practice if the game doesn't last the full length (like we saw a lot a LVO) then the secondaries are worth almost as much as the primary...4 points a turn for 3/4 turns= 12/16 points from primary. Secondaries are worth 12 points. If you are more evenly matched, then you're probably not getting all 4, more like 2-3 each turn (3pts/turn=12 pts in 4 turns) and your opponent is getting at least 2. So like I said earlier, in practice you are sometimes getting more points from the secondary objectives than the primary. The only way to get full points from the primary is to table your opponent early, so you are guaranteed 4 pts/turn through turn 6. Put another way:

In a 4 turn game, if player 1 does the minimum on primary and maxes secondary he/she will get 20 points (8 primary, 12 secondary). Note the minimum is killing 1 unit and holding 1 objective.
Player 2 achieves all primary and one of their secondary (out of 3). He/she will also have 20 points (16 primary, 4 secondary).

Now lets assume that player 1's list is built purely to kill stuff, and doesn't care about holding more than the 1 objective per turn. Your results now look like this:
Player 1 maxes secondary again, getting their 20 points (assuming they also didn't get extra points for "kill more than your opponent" each turn)
Player 2 only gets 3 pts per turn, with their one secondary they have 16 points.

Since 50% of the primary objectives are "kill stuff" they synergize with the secondaries that are also "kill stuff". Which leads to lists like we saw at LVO: Maximizing firepower and denying secondary objectives through unit composition. Eldar does this well. This is simply a rare opportunity (albeit a single data point) to compare armies against different tournament/mission formats, and that's what people are focusing on here.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. 
   
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McCragge

Some of the missions like What’s Yours Is Mine make it hard to hold more than one objective (there are only two) so then secondaries are even more important. You need to decide early what’s the best way to score the most points.

Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!

Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."

"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."

DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. 
   
 
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