If you could rewrite a faction's fluff, majorly or minorly, what would you do?

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**pm713**

That's really not bad at all. That's just a Tuesday in Warhammer not a loss.

The space on fire makes sense as long as you only half think on it.

**Rosebuddy**

Desubot wrote:
I find it odd. do people really not like the newer necron fluff?

I mean do we really need another mindless group of kill all living things for reason faction?

thats kinda what the nids and kinda what the orks do.

i like that they have a wee bit of personality.

I would've kept necrons as unknowable aliens with their goals, numbers and exact capabilities completely in the dark. They and tyranids would both do the whole alien horror schtick but tyranids would be on the more animalistic and predictable side while the necrons would make you doubt the laws of physics.

All the humanisation the necrons got would instead go to the orks. The nearly mindlessly aggressive ork would be recognised as a Goff archetype and orks as a whole as the result of a superweapon breaking down for millions of years, thus you could really open up for more mercenary or unaligned orks. The Imperium's big rival on a galactic scale would be the collection of ork empires known as Orkdom. There's little point to a warrior prophet like Ghazghkull if the baseline activity of every ork is eternal war. There's little point to having an ork clan known specifically for its warlike inclinations when that's already what every ork is like. I want a great mass of orks that find a satisfactory outlet for their combative nature in wrestling or racing that can just happen to be pulled along by the more militant elements of their society. A lot of orks shouldn't care whether they get their fill of adrenaline, bruises and loud noise from firing a gun or from driving a jet-powered boat. Goffs care and that would make them a big driving force behind the various wars with the Imperium but Goffs shouldn't be the defining clan of the species.

**CthuluIsSpy**

A bit of a gripe on necron vehicles - they don't make much sense.
I mean, you have a race of aliens obsessed with self preservation, and they give their military vehicles big gaping weak points that are just asking to be shot? I don't care if they have high-tech shielding, that is dumb and is not consistent behavior at all for a race who really doesn't want to die.

I would amend it that the 5th ed vehicles we see are actually re-purposed civilian vehicles at the time of the war in heaven, and the so called "high-tech" quantum shielding we see is actually considered to be pretty unreliable and primitive by necron standards and was strapped on at the last minute to make the vehicle combat ready.
After the War in Heaven they still use the vehicles as is, because they don't see the logic in reinforcing a civilian vehicle when they can use the resources to build new bodies and military vehicles that better suit their needs.

You already have a precedent of this in the form of the Ghost Ark- at one time it was a necrontyr corpse cart, but it was re-purposed to become a repair vehicle.

**chyron**

ChargerIIC wrote:

On the second, there is a great moment that hints at this in one of the Black Library books. The Imperial Crusade shows up, is rejected by the inhabitants because of the deviations in their DNA versus pre-space expansion humanity. This pisses the Imperium off and they wipe them out. Anyone remember which book it was in?

Prospero Burns.
But while Olamic Quietude considered Imperials non-human pretenders - Imperium considered Quietude population pureblood human enough to try to incorporate - after more than dozen milleniums of isolation and parallel evolution/possible DNA tinkering.
And there were no word of 'pre-space' humanity actually.

Spoiler:

Skull measurements and other biological data taken from captured Quietude specimens had confirmed their Terran ancestry. At some point long before the fall of Old Night, a branch of Terran expansion had brought the Quietude’s gene pool into this out-flung, unremembered corner of the galaxy. The commander of the 40th Imperial Expedition Fleet, along with his technical advisors and savants, believed that this exodus had taken place during the First Great Age of Technology, perhaps as long as fifteen thousand years earlier. The Quietude possessed a level of technological aptitude that was extremely sophisticated, and so divergent from Terran or even Martian standards as to suggest a long incubation and, possibly, the influence of a xenobiological culture.
At some early stage in their post-Terran life, the humans of the Quietude had given up their humanity. They operated in social networks, cohered by communications webs neurally spliced into them at birth. They sacrificed most of their flesh anatomy to ritualised surgical procedures during childhood that prepared them to inhabit artificial bodies. Pretty much all that remained of a Quietude adult, organically speaking, were the brain, skull and spinal cord. These rested in the neck socket of an elegantly engineered humanoid chassis, which contained the machine-analogue organs that fed the brain and kept it alive.
-----snip----
THE OLAMIC QUIETUDE had been hostile from the very point of contact. Suspicious and unwilling to formalise any kind of convergence, they had engaged the 40th Fleet in two separate ship actions in an attempt to drive the expedition out of Quietude space. During the second of these skirmishes, the Quietude managed to capture the crew of an Imperial warship.
The commander of the 40th Imperial Expedition Fleet sent a warning to the Quietude, explaining that peaceful contact and exchange was the primary goal of the Imperium of Terra, and the Quietude’s aggressive stance would not be tolerated. The warship and its crew would be returned. Negotiations would begin. Dialogue with Imperial iterators would begin and understanding reached. The Quietude made its first direct response. It explained, as if to a child, or perhaps to a pet dog or bird that it was trying to train, that it was the true and sole heir of the Terran legacy. As its name suggested, it was resting in an everlasting state of readiness to resume contact with its birthworld. It had waited patiently through the apocalyptic ages of storm and tempest.
The Imperials who now approached its borders were pretenders. They were not what they claimed to be. Any fool could see that they were the crude artifice of some alien race trying to mock-up what it thought would pass for human.
The Quietude supported this verdict with copious annotated evidence from its interrogation of the Imperial prisoners. Each prisoner, the Quietude stated, displayed over fifteen thousand points of differential that revealed them to be non-human impostors, as the vivisections clearly demonstrated.
The commander of the 40th Expedition Fleet sent for the nearest Astartes.

**BrianDavion**

keep in mind this doesn't mean the quietude where genuinely more baseline human then the Imperium. Anymore then the "emperor" at the very start of the first Horus Heresy book was really the emperor of mankind and his worl;d was earth etc.

**pm713**

Misread things.

**Iracundus**

chyron wrote:
ChargerIIC wrote:

On the second, there is a great moment that hints at this in one of the Black Library books. The Imperial Crusade shows up, is rejected by the inhabitants because of the deviations in their DNA versus pre-space expansion humanity. This pisses the Imperium off and they wipe them out. Anyone remember which book it was in?

Prospero Burns.
But while Olamic Quietude considered Imperials non-human pretenders - Imperium considered Quietude population pureblood human enough to try to incorporate - after more than dozen milleniums of isolation and parallel evolution/possible DNA tinkering.
And there were no word of 'pre-space' humanity actually.

Spoiler:

-----snip----
As its name suggested, it was resting in an everlasting state of readiness to resume contact with its birthworld. It had waited patiently through the apocalyptic ages of storm and tempest.
The Imperials who now approached its borders were pretenders. They were not what they claimed to be. Any fool could see that they were the crude artifice of some alien race trying to mock-up what it thought would pass for human.

Makes me think of them like V'Ger from the first Star Trek movie. Both cases of thinking the original homeworld must be inhabited by beings like themselves.

**Irbis**

Desubot wrote:
I find it odd. do people really not like the newer necron fluff?

I mean do we really need another mindless group of kill all living things for reason faction?

It's even dumber when you consider the fact the 'newcrons' are the 'oldcrons' when you look at them from the outside, we just saw what makes them tick. You know, it's funny, had any other writer changed the army from two dimensional cardboard cutout into something that allows you to make 'your dudes' really your, while preserving old flavor and feel, he would be praised, but if it's Ward, everything he ever does is unminusgood

It would be even somewhat understandable if old Necron fluff was any good, but it was garbage. All of it, it made no sense whatsoever. That "impossibly advanced anti-tank weapon" 3rd edition fluff tried to pump up so much? Lascannon stats. And it was larger than lascannon, so imperial equivalent was actually better

"Impossibly advanced batteries"? Larger than SM backpack, produce less power. "Impossibly powerful star gods"? Terrible stats in game. "Molecular annihilator gun more powerful than lascannons"? Bolter equivalent. So on, so on. Even fluff was dumb, Necrons were somehow responsible for everything, including genetically modifying humans 60 mln years ago, only oh, 59.8 mln years before humans even actually existed

**pm713**

It's criticised because it's badly done and he added stupid things.

Old necron fluff was good and the rubbish about in game stats applies to every single faction.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Its almost as if there's a disconnect between fluff and crunch. Like how Marines are supposed to be absolute beasts in the fluff, but essentially fodder on the table top.

Also, pretty sure it didn't say they genetically modified humans 60 million years ago, just inserted the fear of death into everything alive, including human's ancestors. Which is another load of stupid and one of the weaker parts of their fluff.
The pariah gene probably came later. Not all necrons stayed asleep.
You might be thinking of the Old Ones, who are supposedly the ones who made every single sentient life form with a psychic signature today.

**Ynneadwraith**

Irbis wrote:
Desubot wrote:
I find it odd. do people really not like the newer necron fluff?

I mean do we really need another mindless group of kill all living things for reason faction?

It's even dumber when you consider the fact the 'newcrons' are the 'oldcrons' when you look at them from the outside, we just saw what makes them tick.

The point is more that we saw what made them tick on the inside, and it turned out to be geriatric old coots who behave like senile old generals and have randomly started to wear egyptian head-dresses for no discernible reason other than to try and claw back some people they disillusioned by nixing the Tomb Kings.

We saw what made them tick on the inside, and what we saw made them completely not scary at all any more. Which needless to say is a bit pants.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Yeah, the point of a monster is that he's not human. Once you start making your monster relatable, he stops being a monster and just becomes another human. We already have a large, corrupt hegemony of humans. We don't need another one.

That's not to say showing motivation and personality is a bad thing; it can work, you just have to be smart about it. Dracula certainly has personality, but I wouldn't call him human nor would I relate to him. Well, the in the book, anyway. The movie handled him differently. Book Dracula is a much different beast compared to Gary Oldman Dracula.
The problem with what GW did with necrons is that by giving them little fun quirks (this one is a collector, this one is Don Quixote, look how much personality they have!) they stopped being terrifying and started being endearing. Which is not how a monster should be. I mean, such concepts could work, but instead of going for menacing they went for funny. Which is not how necrons should be. They are the boogeymen of the material realm where Demons are the horrors of the spiritual / psychic realm. They need to be written as such.

**Ynneadwraith**

Absolutely agreed.

You can make monsters relatable without making them human as well. In fact, there's a blindingly obvious way to do that with Necrons. Make it clear that they were human-like before the biotransference, and give them haunting shattered echoes of what they used to be.

Perhaps that's what they were going for, but missed the mark and just made them seem like senile old coots.

The way to make them scary with that would be to make it painfully obvious that any semblance of personality they have left clinging onto their metallic corpses is nothing more than a echo. A facade of humanity. Make it 'personality meets the uncanny-valley effect'.

If anyone's seen it, it's like the Vashta Nerada from Dr Who

**CthuluIsSpy**

Ynneadwraith wrote:
Absolutely agreed.

You can make monsters relatable without making them human as well. In fact, there's a blindingly obvious way to do that with Necrons. Make it clear that they were human-like before the biotransference, and give them haunting shattered echoes of what they used to be.

Perhaps that's what they were going for, but missed the mark and just made them seem like senile old coots.

The way to make them scary with that would be to make it painfully obvious that any semblance of personality they have left clinging onto their metallic corpses is nothing more than a echo. A facade of humanity. Make it 'personality meets the uncanny-valley effect'.

If anyone's seen it, it's like the Vashta Nerada from Dr Who

Yeah, that works as well. That's the general idea behind undead; they were human, but now they aren't.
All undead are tragic in nature because of that. That doesn't make them stop being monsters.

**MagicJuggler**

The issue people have is that the "shattered sanity via Biotransference" aspect is suffering from how RPGs traditionally handle insanity. What should be a terrifying case of being trapped inside your own mind devolves into Chaotic Stupid hijinks. Compare Malkavians as theoretically envisioned by White Wolf to the reality of the Fishmalk.

http://readthedamnbook.blogspot.com/2012/12/fishmalks-and-wareadors.html?m=1

**Dysartes**

chyron wrote:
Erase Draigo fluff (or make him puppet of some Chaos God).

It would explain what Malal has been up to recently...

**Grumblewartz**

MagicJuggler wrote:
Kroem wrote:
Grumblewartz wrote:
Emphasize squig beer and diganobz as much as possible.

Thank god there is at least one good suggestion in this thread! Although I do like the idea of grots getting more camera time...

Waaargh The Orks wrote:"Mornin' Makari," said Lansig pleasantly. His voice was surprisingly deep for a Gretchin, almost Orkish. It added to the air of authority around his pug-nosed face. "You've been a naughty boy. A word in yer ear..."

Makari wasn't fooled by the way Lansig dressed like a wealthy merchant. The wiry muscles and the unusually powerful build marked him out as a mobster, one of the strong ones that preyed on the Gretchin entrepreneurs in the market square. And Makari hadn't been paying him his cut.

"I've 'ad a bad week, boss," grovelled Makari, "Fat Glub raided me mushroom patch an' took away all da best ones. Useless git, ate 'em 'isself too. Hope 'e's stick as a drunk Ork."

Makari tried to ease himself into the crowd but he felt himself grabbed by Ari and Ari. As he felt their strong grips and looked into their evil faces, Makari became afraid. Lansig leaned forward and picked up one of the toadstools. He wrinkled his nose in distaste. Then he lifted Monti and stroked the squig's back with his long, strangler's fingers.

"See wot yer mean. Still, biz is biz. If yer don't 'ave ten teef fer me by nightfall...Ari'll 'ave ter do a bit ov extraction."

Big Ari held him in place while Little Ari held dental pliers underneath his nose. Lansig put Monti back on the tray. A passing Ork laughed at this sign of Gretchin high spirits. The Gretchin joined in fawningly.

So anything that definitely puts them in a larger spotlight or expands in detail on the nature of Orkonomics besides "dey use teef" would be great.

I agree with all of this!

**Sim-Life**

I'd make C'tan more like unknowable Lovecraftian horrors and their shards on the battlefield are just effigies given a tiny spark of power by the actual C'tan on a whim.

The necrontyr were normal people who worshipped the c'tan and their lords sold them out so that the c'tan would grant them power and immortality at the cost of a massive soul sacrafice on the part of the average citizens. The c'tan gave the lords what they wanted but their subjects are empty shells.

Necrons go back to being empty, soul harvesting robots, their lords get to keep their personalities even if they are just immortal, guilt ridden, nihilistic slaves to indifferent gods instead if grouchy robots and c'tan go back to being cosmic horrors.

**Ace From Outer Space**

I agree with all the suggestions for going back to the way the necrons were. It was so much more compelling than the current lore.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Sim-Life wrote:
I'd make C'tan more like unknowable Lovecraftian horrors and their shards on the battlefield are just effigies given a tiny spark of power by the actual C'tan on a whim.

The necrontyr were normal people who worshipped the c'tan and their lords sold them out so that the c'tan would grant them power and immortality at the cost of a massive soul sacrafice on the part of the average citizens. The c'tan gave the lords what they wanted but their subjects are empty shells.

Necrons go back to being empty, soul harvesting robots, their lords get to keep their personalities even if they are just immortal, guilt ridden, nihilistic slaves to indifferent gods instead if grouchy robots and c'tan go back to being cosmic horrors.

I'm cool with this. Sounds like a nice compromise.

**Mr Nobody**

Hear me out, but I think genestealer cults should have matriarchs instead of patriarchs.

A big influence on Tyranids and the genestealers would be the Alien series. The Aliens were all about queens and mothers, even the books series I've been reading revolved around the aspect of the 'female' in both the xenomorphs and the characters. I think it would also be fair to say that the genestealers cults, at least story wise, would have a strong focus on families. The theme of life, or life grown wild, is also a theme you could connect to Tyranids and in turn connect to genestealers. After all, the whole point is humans giving birth to Tyranid children. This theme of life would difintely fit in better with some 'great mother' that the humans would worship.

Just an idea I've been having.

**AdmiralHalsey**

Mr Nobody wrote:
Hear me out, but I think genestealer cults should have matriarchs instead of patriarchs.

A big influence on Tyranids and the genestealers would be the Alien series. The Aliens were all about queens and mothers, even the books series I've been reading revolved around the aspect of the 'female' in both the xenomorphs and the characters. I think it would also be fair to say that the genestealers cults, at least story wise, would have a strong focus on families. The theme of life, or life grown wild, is also a theme you could connect to Tyranids and in turn connect to genestealers. After all, the whole point is humans giving birth to Tyranid children. This theme of life would difintely fit in better with some 'great mother' that the humans would worship.

Just an idea I've been having.

I want to make a Female Marine joke, but about Tyranids here...

Biologically though, Genestealers are really a female kinda thing anyway, arn't they? They kiss people [In the not nice way] and implant Genestealer seeds into them that makes them hybridy kinda things.