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 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Except as mentioned, entire armies ignore the penalty to fall back, some units and powers allow them to ignore it and you still have to deal with the screen, which I am sorry, will not die to a handful of Stormbolter shots. I dare you to remove my 30 grot squad with stormbolters. They are basically fearless with my herder near by and Orkz are sure as hell not the only army with competent Screening units.

That's what snipers and sniper spells are for - 3 or 4 wound support characters.

Alternatively, that's why the tank and the troops riding in it output 24 storm bolter shots and 2d6 heavy flamer shots, with additional fire coming in from other squads or the storm bolters on other tanks. Yes, it takes about 4x the cost of a unit to destroy it in shooting, but concentrated fire can clear a path if a path needs clearing.

Melee...too powerful?

Do you even play the same game as everyone else?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


Except as mentioned, entire armies ignore the penalty to fall back, some units and powers allow them to ignore it and you still have to deal with the screen, which I am sorry, will not die to a handful of Stormbolter shots. I dare you to remove my 30 grot squad with stormbolters. They are basically fearless with my herder near by and Orkz are sure as hell not the only army with competent Screening units.

That's what snipers and sniper spells are for - 3 or 4 wound support characters.

Alternatively, that's why the tank and the troops riding in it output 24 storm bolter shots and 2d6 heavy flamer shots, with additional fire coming in from other squads or the storm bolters on other tanks. Yes, it takes about 4x the cost of a unit to destroy it in shooting, but concentrated fire can clear a path if a path needs clearing.

Few things,

1: 24 Storm bolter shots against an Ork grot unit = about 11-13 Dead grotz, unless they are in cover. 2D6 Heavy flamer shots = an additional 5-6 dead Grotz, At most you have killed 19 out of the 30 I have infront of you, and I can easily kill off the right ones to shield my unit your trying to get at. So my cheap, throwaway screening unit just took 200-300pts worth of shooting (i don't know SoB that well) and are still alive and ready to be annoying.

2: So you didn't get into CC on turn 2 ( you couldn't have pulled that trick off turn 1 anyway because Deep striking happened before shooting and after movement, so now you are stranded in no mans land getting shot at again for a 3rd turn. YAY screening units work and stop assault armies on foot. Now if you deep struck you could always assault that Screen unit, but then again that is what I would want you to do because then I can just counter charge OR have my grotz fall back and shoot the piss out of you.

3: for the sniper comment, good luck drawing LOS to my herder who is guarding a screening unit.

Close Combat is not over powered. There is a wicked inherent risk in close combat and even turn 1 alpha strike close combat. I use 90 Kommandos in 6 squads backed up by 30 boyz jumped into range. Even with my army wide reroll for charge you are looking at a lower then 50% success rate for charges, and leaving my kommandos out in the open because they failed a charge is basically giving you first blood and a free kill, and at 9ppm they aren't cheap enough to throw away like boyz are. And trust me, it doesn't take 4x as many points to liquefy my Kommandos out in the open, T4 6+ save.

CC is inherently risky, a lot more so then ranged combat which is just point click destroy. But since we invalidate your shooting options people don't like it.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:
Yeah, I’ve been struggling to see why people think melee alpha strikes are such a prevalent and terrible thing. There are very few armies that can do them, and those that can do because it’s the only way to survive. And it’s also fluffy.

Close combat is way more powerful than shooting.

Very much disagree with this statement.

Melee has to get there first.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Melee...too powerful?

Do you even play the same game as everyone else?

I think what they are trying to say is that melle can do more damage in 1 turn that shooting can - in a lot of cases that is true. The balance between shooting and CC is an always will be epic fail - range warfare killed off melle for a reason. There are fundamental problems melle has to get around to be useful. The ability to deepstrike and charge with a 50% chance or less was actually pretty good at replicating a balanced situation....and they removed it....

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Melee...too powerful?

Do you even play the same game as everyone else?

I think what they are trying to say is that melle can do more damage in 1 turn that shooting can - in a lot of cases that is true. The balance between shooting and CC is an always will be epic fail - range warfare killed off melle for a reason. There are fundamental problems melle has to get around to be useful. The ability to deepstrike and charge with a 50% chance or less was actually pretty good at replicating a balanced situation....and they removed it....

That would be because we have more gunline armies then we do pure CC armies. Which is why they got rid of it. Hey that is fine, weaken CC, just buff the ever loving crap out of my ranged Ork units to compensate, because as it stands I have KMKs and that is it for ranged shooting worth taking.

quentra wrote:

 helgrenze wrote:

quentra wrote:
Eldar had farseers, locks, and reapers go up in points (and be restricted!) Eldar guardian bomb is a turn 2 tactic now and no good way to protect your guys if you're going t2 aside from being Alaitoc. How did eldar get better again?

They also have a rule that makes Soup armies legal for them through the Ynnari leaders.

Index: Xenos 1 Page 76 – Army of the Reborn ‘If your army is Battle-forged and the Warlord of your army is either Yvraine, the Visarch or the Yncarne then you can include any of these models in any Craftworlds, Harlequins or Drukhari Detachment (as defined in their respective codexes)

That rule is supersceded by the new Battle-Brothers rule, so AFAIK you can't run a battalion of Yvraine, Incubi, and Reapers anymore

Well since the bit I quoted is from the same FAQ, I would say that it overrides that rule. It is actually listed on the "Summary and Beta" page under Related Erratta below the Battle Brothers Rule along with the bits about Assassins and other Imperium units.

. You can include these models in the Detachment even if you are using the Battle Brothers matched play rule.

Referring specifically to the 3 models in the Triumverate. The rest of the very same rule makes it clear that the detatchment must be Craftworlder, Harliquin, or DE. The 'these models' is only referring to the 3 explicitly listed.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


Close combat is way more powerful than shooting. Shooting has to actually kill the target, which takes about 4 times it's cost. Close quarters just has to get there, you don't even need melee weapons.

ummm....no.

There is a penalty to falling back from Close combat, but, Eldar can ignore this, flying units ignore this, Ultra Smurfs ignore this and im sure a lot more stuff ignores or limits the downside of this. Furthermore, if you have a chaff (meat shield) unit that gets assaulted all you have to do is fall back, and then blast the ever loving hell out of whatever was attacking it. It is literally one of the most basic strategies in the game. Plus, fun fact, to get into CC you have to get across the board and assault the enemy, if you aren't deep striking that means at the very least you will be subjected to 1 full round of shooting and 1 round of overwatch. My 180pts of Boyz marching up the table will get decimated before they get into CC, which is why I usually bring closer to 720-900pts worth of boyz. That works not because CC armies are better then shooting armies, but because I am relying on target overload to get into CC and hopefully kill or tie up as many of your units as possible. I have no ability to take down flyers or heavy armored targets like Land Raiders or knights, I rely on my boyz to tie them up for the entire game if possible. Shooting armies on the other hand can take down whatever they want and can start inflicting casualties turn 1.

Again, a "full round of overwatch" is basically harmless, Only Tau from Tau really matter.

I think you're missing my point. Flyers and units that can fall back and still retain efficiency are the only real concern, since once you get there you've shut them off for a turn.

I can run Seraphim up the board 24" and jump the guardsmen since I fly to lock out multiple tanks on the first turn. You don't have to have close combat weapons, in fact, you're better if you don't, because that means you didn't pay any points extra. You just have to be a fast warm body. I can also clear away the screen with storm bolters and send my tanks through into melee if I'm really concerned and want to shut out more than the Seraphim can. Any units I catch, unless they specifically ignore it, won't be shooting or charging on their own turn, and if they don't fall back I can to make them a target.


In addition, fast units moving up the board have to be dealt with on turn 1, so they're also drawing fire away from other, more expensive, harder-hitting units.

That's a very specific amount of units you are talking about. Most armies do not have access to hyper fast first turn charge units. Deep strike was their only reliable method to get into close combat without being turned into Swiss cheese.

If you want to see a lopsided game, play an army that has no ranged capabilities and fight it against another army which is all shooting with these rules and then tell me if the tactical reserves rule should be added.

You will only see the true disproportion of this rule when you see it in it's extreme.

With armies that have a decent amount of melee and ranged this isn't much of a problem. It's when you get into CC focused armies or factions that only deal in CC that you start to see the cracks in this rule.

And BTW, you might be saying overwatch is not that great. Tell that to the unit that is popping out 90 shots at the target before they get to charge and then tell me that shooting needs a buff.

(If your wondering which unit im talking about. 30 squad of pink horrors with a herald gives you 90 Shots at Str 4, 1 dmg each. at 18" range, it's bloody ridiculous, add on flickring flames and it's wounding Marines on 3's. It's seriously messed up how strong their shooting is

You mean like my Ork Horde which has 5' movement, no transports worth taking for Boyz (our only useful unit) and one unit that is useful at shooting (KMK Mek Gunz)

my army is unnecessarily slow, weak against vehicles and apparently now has to walk into gunlines since alpha strike is banned.

SemperMortis wrote:
You mean like my Ork Horde which has 5' movement, no transports worth taking for Boyz (our only useful unit) and one unit that is useful at shooting (KMK Mek Gunz)

my army is unnecessarily slow, weak against vehicles and apparently now has to walk into gunlines since alpha strike is banned.

Sounds like the ork way of doing things, to me!

being the NPC race and allowing everyone to feel good blasting us off the table?

SemperMortis wrote:
being the NPC race and allowing everyone to feel good blasting us off the table?

There's only like 350 quintillion more of you guys to kill... so, yeah. I mean, someone has to fill that role. Look at the service you're doing for the community

SemperMortis wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Melee...too powerful?

Do you even play the same game as everyone else?

I think what they are trying to say is that melle can do more damage in 1 turn that shooting can - in a lot of cases that is true. The balance between shooting and CC is an always will be epic fail - range warfare killed off melle for a reason. There are fundamental problems melle has to get around to be useful. The ability to deepstrike and charge with a 50% chance or less was actually pretty good at replicating a balanced situation....and they removed it....

That would be because we have more gunline armies then we do pure CC armies. Which is why they got rid of it. Hey that is fine, weaken CC, just buff the ever loving crap out of my ranged Ork units to compensate, because as it stands I have KMKs and that is it for ranged shooting worth taking.

Orks have kind of always been a shooting army - at least IMO. In 4th my friend would blow my marines off the table with rocket spam. Then in 5th it was lootas in battle waggons. Not saying they were exceptionally strong or anything - just that they have always had great shooting options.

I think when they get a codex - they just need a rule that they always hit on 5's and they will be a great shooting army.

IMO it would've been a lot better if problematic deepstrikers (Plasma Scions, Slaanesh Oblits etc.) would have gotten a price hike or were otherwise nerfed/ restricted. Now every unit that relied on 1st turn deepstrikes to be viable (viable, not broken) is gutted and gunlines have gotten a big and unneccessary buff, there were plenty of ways to screen a gunline from deepstrikers.

Pandabeer wrote:
IMO it would've been a lot better if problematic deepstrikers (Plasma Scions, Slaanesh Oblits etc.) would have gotten a price hike or were otherwise nerfed/ restricted. Now every unit that relied on 1st turn deepstrikes to be viable (viable, not broken) is gutted and gunlines have gotten a big and unneccessary buff, there were plenty of ways to screen a gunline from deepstrikers.

I wonder how much a lot of this would be fixed if terrain actually gave a proper cover save like in 7th instead of making it so AP weapons just chew through armor and the +1 you get from cover. Deepstrike plasma was always less effective when that AP2 was meet with a 4+ ruins save.

Pandabeer wrote:
IMO it would've been a lot better if problematic deepstrikers (Plasma Scions, Slaanesh Oblits etc.) would have gotten a price hike or were otherwise nerfed/ restricted. Now every unit that relied on 1st turn deepstrikes to be viable (viable, not broken) is gutted and gunlines have gotten a big and unneccessary buff, there were plenty of ways to screen a gunline from deepstrikers.

Yeah I agree - it's pretty obvious to me. Lot of people on Dakka don't think you can balance the game with points though - I'm sure there is an equal majority in basically every other 40k community too. They for some reason prefer blanket "solutions" which end up just making lots of problems.

Just adjusting points costs is playing WAAC-a-mole. As soon as you adjust the points of one undercosted unit, the meta will just move to the next undercosted unit. Ideally, there wouldn't be any undercosted units, but that's not a realistic expectation in a game as big and diverse as 40k. You have to adjust mechanics along with points, which is what they're trying to do.

 EnTyme wrote:
Just adjusting points costs is playing WAAC-a-mole. As soon as you adjust the points of one undercosted unit, the meta will just move to the next undercosted unit. Ideally, there wouldn't be any undercosted units, but that's not a realistic expectation in a game as big and diverse as 40k.

Sure, but there is such thing as 'close enough.'

You have to adjust mechanics along with points, which is what they're trying to do.

Then adjust the mechanics of the units that are actually the problem! I though that was one of the selling points of not having universal special rules that doing so was possible...

 EnTyme wrote:
Just adjusting points costs is playing WAAC-a-mole. As soon as you adjust the points of one undercosted unit, the meta will just move to the next undercosted unit. Ideally, there wouldn't be any undercosted units, but that's not a realistic expectation in a game as big and diverse as 40k. You have to adjust mechanics along with points, which is what they're trying to do.

Point is that the deepstrike change is WAAC-a-mole on a game system scale instead of a unit scale. The only thing this will achieve is shifting the meta from alpha strike to gunlines while leaving armies that had non-broken deepstrikers in the gutter. All hail the Guilliman Parking Lot once more I suppose.

Pandabeer wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Just adjusting points costs is playing WAAC-a-mole. As soon as you adjust the points of one undercosted unit, the meta will just move to the next undercosted unit. Ideally, there wouldn't be any undercosted units, but that's not a realistic expectation in a game as big and diverse as 40k. You have to adjust mechanics along with points, which is what they're trying to do.

Point is that the deepstrike change is WAAC-a-mole on a game system scale instead of a unit scale. The only thing this will achieve is shifting the meta from alpha strike to gunlines while leaving armies that had non-broken deepstrikers in the gutter. All hail the Guilliman Parking Lot once more I suppose.

Probably intended. Can't have the Primaris and the posterboy be bad, can we?

Wayniac wrote:

Probably intended. Can't have the Primaris and the posterboy be bad, can we?

Umm... they're pretty bad. Marine armies are really struggling now.

Guilliman price bumb was a good thing though. Sooner people stop using him, sooner the true extent of Marine weakness becomes apparent, and we might finally get some actual fixes.

Wayniac wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Just adjusting points costs is playing WAAC-a-mole. As soon as you adjust the points of one undercosted unit, the meta will just move to the next undercosted unit. Ideally, there wouldn't be any undercosted units, but that's not a realistic expectation in a game as big and diverse as 40k. You have to adjust mechanics along with points, which is what they're trying to do.

Point is that the deepstrike change is WAAC-a-mole on a game system scale instead of a unit scale. The only thing this will achieve is shifting the meta from alpha strike to gunlines while leaving armies that had non-broken deepstrikers in the gutter. All hail the Guilliman Parking Lot once more I suppose.

Probably intended. Can't have the Primaris and the posterboy be bad, can we?

They nerfed Guilliman again in this FAQ, so... I can't say for sure, but you might be jumping to conclusions with that conspiracy theory there.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
Just adjusting points costs is playing WAAC-a-mole. As soon as you adjust the points of one undercosted unit, the meta will just move to the next undercosted unit. Ideally, there wouldn't be any undercosted units, but that's not a realistic expectation in a game as big and diverse as 40k. You have to adjust mechanics along with points, which is what they're trying to do.

Point is that the deepstrike change is WAAC-a-mole on a game system scale instead of a unit scale. The only thing this will achieve is shifting the meta from alpha strike to gunlines while leaving armies that had non-broken deepstrikers in the gutter. All hail the Guilliman Parking Lot once more I suppose.

Probably intended. Can't have the Primaris and the posterboy be bad, can we?

They nerfed Guilliman again in this FAQ, so... I can't say for sure, but you might be jumping to conclusions with that conspiracy theory there.

He got a whole 15 points more expensive? In the meanwhile everything that he gives his massive reroll bubble to has gotten a huge buff because they don't have to worry about turn 1 deepstrikers anymore.

edit: I don't mean to say I'm a conspiracy theorist here but it's undeniable that gunline armies have gotten a large buff and the Guilliman Parking Lot is just a prime example of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Probably intended. Can't have the Primaris and the posterboy be bad, can we?

Umm... they're pretty bad. Marine armies are really struggling now.

Guilliman price bumb was a good thing though. Sooner people stop using him, sooner the true extent of Marine weakness becomes apparent, and we might finally get some actual fixes.

Guess that's fair enough as well (well, besides Raven Guard with their -1 to hit and infiltrate) but with the buff gunlines have gotten Girlyman indirectly got a much bigger buff than a 15 point cost increase can ever hope to offset.

No marine gunline can compete with IG gunline.