Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Anything that brings Power Level to matched play can go soak their fat head.

Dude it's necessary. Not everyone starts with the same things in DS each game. Being able to calculate it on the fly is HELPFUL and it won't overly penalize super elite units.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
Can we finally admit that in less than 12 months with a full reset, 40k 8th edition is a giant mess already?

BRING ON THE 9th EDTION DUMPSTER FIRE!

I'll still take the "giant mess" over the broken pile of garbage rotting away in an exploding trash recycling plant that 7th edition was .

You are taking the giant mess on the chin for sure.

7th is dead.

8th is here and its a steaming pile of meta shifting garbage.

Who would have thought that being able to place all your models anywhere on the boad during turn one with zero risk was going to be an issue??? WTF??

TIME FOR BETA ROOLZ.

What a joke.

I think GW is trying to improve the game, they just haven't realized that AM is overall too good. Other codexes had a "good unit," but those get nerfed quickly. Tyrants, nerfed, Reapers, nerfed, Storm Ravens, nerfed. Meanwhile AM has been balls out awesome from the jump and only seems to get better as time goes by.

I think the main problem with AM is that no watter what core issue you try to fix. A general rule change seems always in some way benefit AM. At least according to dakka.

I think AM simpllly needs an across the board 10-15% points hike and ,as Pete Folley confirmed in the stream, they don't really wanna change points in these FAQ's. They don't want these things to cause massive shifts. That's reserved for Chapter approved.

So here's what you do to fix the deep strike issues - you apply the same logic close combat units have to face:

1) Units can't shoot unless they pass a 9+ on 2d6 prior to shooting

That's just being reasonable, all things considered. For added sake, let's consider...

2) Units can't shoot unless they're in base-to-base contact, within 1" of the enemy, or within 1" of a model in it's unit meeting one of the previous two criteria (b2b/1")
3) Units can't shoot models in terrain, unless they roll a 11+ (9+2+) on 2d6 prior to shooting
4) Round 1, up to half your units [by PL], can't move outside their deployment zone, but can't be shot at in return


I mean, these changes are only fair - it's what close combat units have to go through in order to attack the enemy.

But hey, T1 melee deepstriking was such a bad thing - right, forum?

I understand people don't like an entire army deploying on their doorstep with no ability to react to it outside of screening; but, nuking melee deepstrike units was not the answer.

fe40k wrote:
No.

Why the feth should CC armies be penalized an entire round; which by the way, allows the enemy to move its screens foward, meaning you're that much further from the juicy targets; while shooting gets ZERO penalty?

Complete removal of CC
vs
No penalty to shooting+wider screen deployment

Feels fair man.

Lets add that shooting cannot occur against targets outside of your deployment zone until turn 2.

 krodarklorr wrote:

fe40k wrote:
No.

Why the feth should CC armies be penalized an entire round; which by the way, allows the enemy to move its screens foward, meaning you're that much further from the juicy targets; while shooting gets ZERO penalty?

Complete removal of CC
vs
No penalty to shooting+wider screen deployment

Feels fair man.

Lets add that shooting cannot occur against targets outside of your deployment zone until turn 2.

How about instead "shooting cannot occur on targets inside of their own DZ until turn 2". Because right now, assault units can assault things outside of their opponent's deployment zone if they're deployed at the beginning of the game, and so shooting units should be too.

The only difference here is being able to reach into the other player's DZ with shooting. I'd be okay removing this ability. But not removing it from the whole board, unless you also prevent assault from assaulting outside their own DZ turn 1, which is frankly ridiculous (I play Slaanesh Daemons. I can get a turn 1 charge without deepstrike easily.)

Also lost in this haze is that guardsmen are still undercosted.

 Marmatag wrote:
Also lost in this haze is that guardsmen are still undercosted.

Yeah; after all my thoughts on GW changing the deepstrike rules, it struck me that Guardsman didn't go up to 5ppm.

It's insane how undercosted those models are.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

fe40k wrote:
No.

Why the feth should CC armies be penalized an entire round; which by the way, allows the enemy to move its screens foward, meaning you're that much further from the juicy targets; while shooting gets ZERO penalty?

Complete removal of CC
vs
No penalty to shooting+wider screen deployment

Feels fair man.

Lets add that shooting cannot occur against targets outside of your deployment zone until turn 2.

How about instead "shooting cannot occur on targets inside of their own DZ until turn 2". Because right now, assault units can assault things outside of their opponent's deployment zone if they're deployed at the beginning of the game, and so shooting units should be too.

The only difference here is being able to reach into the other player's DZ with shooting. I'd be okay removing this ability. But not removing it from the whole board, unless you also prevent assault from assaulting outside their own DZ turn 1, which is frankly ridiculous (I play Slaanesh Daemons. I can get a turn 1 charge without deepstrike easily.)

Sure. This works. But also, how about we limit all shooting and assault to being second turn only. Only movement is allowed first turn.

Or better, yet, remove the first turn and go straight to the second turn. It's only fair.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Or better, yet, remove the first turn and go straight to the second turn. It's only fair.

You know the thread about 40k jumping the shark? This is 40k jumping the shark. lol

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Or better, yet, remove the first turn and go straight to the second turn. It's only fair.

You know the thread about 40k jumping the shark? This is 40k jumping the shark. lol

But jumping the shark isn't allowed until the start of the second turn.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Or better, yet, remove the first turn and go straight to the second turn. It's only fair.

You know the thread about 40k jumping the shark? This is 40k jumping the shark. lol

But jumping the shark isn't allowed until the start of the second turn.

Maybe even the second turn is too early? maybe we should push everything back to turn 3 just to be fair, that way every game will last to turn 5/6 like its supposed too.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Or better, yet, remove the first turn and go straight to the second turn. It's only fair.

You know the thread about 40k jumping the shark? This is 40k jumping the shark. lol

But jumping the shark isn't allowed until the start of the second turn.

Great, it wasn't bad enough I had to roll a 9 to jump the shark turn one, now you're giving a decisive advantage to armies that shoot the shark.

I think yes, but I predict that we'll see gunlines become more powerful. We may even see a return to old leafblower type lists of the past. When that shakes out, I think the next FAQ will likely refine the rules for deepstriking more and maybe nerf alpha strike shooting, and then we'll be in a pretty good position.

Time will tell.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Dude it's necessary. Not everyone starts with the same things in DS each game. Being able to calculate it on the fly is HELPFUL and it won't overly penalize super elite units.

It's not necessary at all. You have a written army list with all of your point totals for each unit already added up. To calculate it on the fly with either system you do the exact same math, adding a single number per unit. PL adds absolutely nothing to this situation besides pandering to the "casual" players who want PL to exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How about instead "shooting cannot occur on targets inside of their own DZ until turn 2". Because right now, assault units can assault things outside of their opponent's deployment zone if they're deployed at the beginning of the game, and so shooting units should be too.

How about instead we understand how long range guns vs. short-range guns vs. melee work and not make a rule that is essentially "long-range weapons no longer exist". Complaining that it isn't "fair" that long-range weapons have longer range and are able to engage earlier in the game is missing the point entirely and driving 40k in the direction of being a bad CCG.

At this point I’m not sure what’s best or even what the point is here. There doesn’t seem to be a vision for this game, no ones actually driving, GWs just rolling down a hill with gravity pulling us all somewhere. It’s just messy, which is exactly what I thought the point of 8th edition wasn’t.

The only thing I do know is lol @ the LoS terrain blocking crowd. I don’t want to spray paint a bunch of shoeboxes for terrain, put every forest on a six inch plateau, or glue plasticard across every window, door, and bullet hole in my terrain. My terrain is fine, thanks, and works for every other game out there except this one. It would be incredibly easy to re write the terrain rules to resemble something sensible; certainly a lot easier than expecting very single hobbyist to modify or replace their entire collection of terrain.

 Peregrine wrote:
PL adds absolutely nothing to this situation besides pandering to the "casual" players who want PL to exist.

Oh My God-Emperor, why do we even let these filthy "casual" players exist. Anyone who doesnt want to play super serious Adepticon level cheese games ALL THE TIME should just be rounded up and shot.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Oh My God-Emperor, why do we even let these filthy "casual" players exist. Anyone who doesnt want to play super serious Adepticon level cheese games ALL THE TIME should just be rounded up and shot.

"Casual" and casual are not the same things. The players in question aren't really casual, they're just obnoxiously proud about how they use a badly balanced system as a show of how morally superior they are. They'll happily whine and cry about WAAC TFGs and express very strong opinions on how the game should be, the exact opposite of being casual.

It's a good idea overall, but probably needs some tweaking like Smite did. I think the final version will be much better

I'm fairly mad about the change but it also removes things like 40 gene stealers deep strike charge turn 1, and if that is being removed I guess my Elysians can learn to stay in the teleportarium one turn longer.