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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
So there is no such thing as the Chaplain Edict except for the Chaplain Edict?

The Chaplain Edict came out of the Council of Nikea inspired by Lorgar, who as the only legion to use chaplains up to that point spread them out to the other legions to attempt to influence them. This is discussed in First Heretic.

Also a facepalm is pretty much in order when you make directly contradictory statements within two posts and keep complaining the other person doesn't read.


So what, it does nothing for your argument. You still got the fact that its in the first heretic wrong, even when you are right you are wrong lol A facepalm is when you do something stupid, I got something wrong, well apart from that you've gotten everything wrong so you do the math.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 19:36:29


 
   
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Well then, your opinion on what constitutes stupid seems to be different too then. Besides, I know you're too attached to your own pet theory to ever give in when you scream I'm wrong every other post, I'm not here to convince you.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Well then, your opinion on what constitutes stupid seems to be different too then. Besides, I know you're too attached to your own pet theory to ever give in when you scream I'm wrong every other post, I'm not here to convince you.


We aren't talking about the emperor intended to be a god, we are talking about Lorgar and Erebus. When it comes to lore you are always wrong, our debates can be seen by all, you refuse to concede anything even when I use proof in every comment. Everything I post is backed up by quotes and you still try to lie and make up stuff, everyone reading this can see that you do that lol You need to convince yourself because facts don't seem to do it for you. You actually thought that 'warmaster' was a chaos title given to Horus and that he didn't become warmaster until false gods.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 19:43:08


 
   
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Sorry for not posting quotes, I wasn't home so I couldn't access my books. Here you go, from First Heretic:

Page 362-363
"What are these?"
"Symbols of the Iron Warrior circles. They do not name them "lodges", as the Sons of Horus do."
Argel Tal removed his helm with a click-hiss of air pressure. As always, the Chaplain's festooned chamber had the lingering twin-scent of dried spices and old incense.
"You were gone much longer than expected," he said. "Problems?"
"Nothing worth doing is ever easy."
Argel Tal flexed his hands, closing and opening them from fists. They ached. They'd ached for days now.
"That doesn't answer my question."
"There were no problems," Said Xaphen. "I stayed longer because it seemed prudent. Their circles are large, taking up the overwhelming majority of the Legion, but it was a critical phase. I was not the only Chaplain there."
Argel Tal raised an eyebrow,not realising he was mimicking Cyrene's bemused smirk out of habit. "Oh?"
"Maloq Kartho was there to deal with another of the warrior circles, and I was treated to several of his sermons. The air fairly reeked of brimstone when he spoke. Var Vales was there, as well. Both were with the Iron Warriors after long tenures with the World Eaters."
Xaphen sighed - a satisfied sound to match the brightness in his eyes. "The web is wide, brother Lorgar's conspiracy spans the stars themselves. At last count, there are over two hundred of our Chaplains seconded to other fleets. Erebus now stands at the Warmaster's side{note that the italics are in the book here} Can you give that countenance? Horus himself, heeding Erebus's words."
Xaphen laughed as he trailed off. "It begins brother."

This directly states that Lorgar had been turned and had set in motion his plans to convert other legions before Erebus was attached to Horus. It also directly contradicts that the spreading of lodges was the idea of Horus.

Page 341-342
Lorgar: "Take the truth to Erebus and Kor Phaeron. While I am gone, they will be the Legion's lords, and they will orchestrate the spread of the true faith in the shadows of my father's empire. I shall return to them soon."


Page 367
"Lorgar has worked half a century to spread the truth to those ears worthy of hearing it. Every Legion we need will be at our side."

They do call Istvaan the work of Erebus though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Well then, your opinion on what constitutes stupid seems to be different too then. Besides, I know you're too attached to your own pet theory to ever give in when you scream I'm wrong every other post, I'm not here to convince you.


We aren't talking about the emperor intended to be a god, we are talking about Lorgar and Erebus. When it comes to lore you are always wrong, our debates can be seen by all, you refuse to concede anything even when I use proof in every comment. Everything I post is backed up by quotes and you still try to lie and make up stuff, everyone reading this can see that you do that lol You need to convince yourself because facts don't seem to do it for you. You actually thought that 'warmaster' was a chaos title given to Horus and that he didn't become warmaster until false gods.

I never said anything about Horus's title as Warmaster, have any proof for that lie?

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 20:21:38


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Sorry for not posting quotes, I wasn't home so I couldn't access my books. Here you go, from First Heretic:

Page 362-363
"What are these?"
"Symbols of the Iron Warrior circles. They do not name them "lodges", as the Sons of Horus do."
Argel Tal removed his helm with a click-hiss of air pressure. As always, the Chaplain's festooned chamber had the lingering twin-scent of dried spices and old incense.
"You were gone much longer than expected," he said. "Problems?"
"Nothing worth doing is ever easy."
Argel Tal flexed his hands, closing and opening them from fists. They ached. They'd ached for days now.
"That doesn't answer my question."
"There were no problems," Said Xaphen. "I stayed longer because it seemed prudent. Their circles are large, taking up the overwhelming majority of the Legion, but it was a critical phase. I was not the only Chaplain there."
Argel Tal raised an eyebrow,not realising he was mimicking Cyrene's bemused smirk out of habit. "Oh?"
"Maloq Kartho was there to deal with another of the warrior circles, and I was treated to several of his sermons. The air fairly reeked of brimstone when he spoke. Var Vales was there, as well. Both were with the Iron Warriors after long tenures with the World Eaters."
Xaphen sighed - a satisfied sound to match the brightness in his eyes. "The web is wide, brother Lorgar's conspiracy spans the stars themselves. At last count, there are over two hundred of our Chaplains seconded to other fleets. Erebus now stands at the Warmaster's side{note that the italics are in the book here} Can you give that countenance? Horus himself, heeding Erebus's words."
Xaphen laughed as he trailed off. "It begins brother."

This directly states that Lorgar had been turned and had set in motion his plans to convert other legions before Erebus was attached to Horus. It also directly contradicts that the spreading of lodges was the idea of Horus.

Page 341-342
Lorgar: "Take the truth to Erebus and Kor Phaeron. While I am gone, they will be the Legion's lords, and they will orchestrate the spread of the true faith in the shadows of my father's empire. I shall return to them soon."


Page 367
"Lorgar has worked half a century to spread the truth to those ears worthy of hearing it. Every Legion we need will be at our side."

They do call Istvaan the work of Erebus though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Well then, your opinion on what constitutes stupid seems to be different too then. Besides, I know you're too attached to your own pet theory to ever give in when you scream I'm wrong every other post, I'm not here to convince you.


We aren't talking about the emperor intended to be a god, we are talking about Lorgar and Erebus. When it comes to lore you are always wrong, our debates can be seen by all, you refuse to concede anything even when I use proof in every comment. Everything I post is backed up by quotes and you still try to lie and make up stuff, everyone reading this can see that you do that lol You need to convince yourself because facts don't seem to do it for you. You actually thought that 'warmaster' was a chaos title given to Horus and that he didn't become warmaster until false gods.

I never said anything about Horus's title as Warmaster, have any proof for that lie?


No it doesn't, all he said was Lorgar's conspiracy is wide, he didn't say the lodges was his idea. Nor does it dispute that it was Horus' idea. Just tried to find that qoute actually, you didn't say that, it was someone else sorry bout that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 20:39:41


 
   
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If you read what I said this last page and a half then you will see I don't state anywhere that Lorgar came up with the lodges, just that Erebus started spreading them after Lorgar's conversion. The point was to show that Horus didn't come up with the idea like it says in your book quote, the WB were already doing it behind his back, because the lodge was not allowed before Horus was turned as the Emperor did not want such practices.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 20:46:56


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
If you read what I said this last page and a half then you will see I don't state anywhere that Lorgar came up with the lodges, just that Erebus started spreading them after Lorgar's conversion. The point was to show that Horus didn't come up with the idea like it says in your book quote, the WB were already doing it behind his back, because the lodge was not allowed before Horus was turned as the Emperor did not want such practices.

As for the other thread, good luck. I haven't posted in the background forum for a good while, since before you joined even. So yeah, good luck trying to find that.



Well I proved that wrong, Erebus started spreading the lodges way way before Lorgars conversion. Horus did come up with the idea, I've proven that with a quote from false gods, to disprove that you have to provide evidence for it, how can you say he did't when its in the novel. Horus planned to spread the lodges, Erebus just needed the lodges on the Warmasters fleet to get him to Davin and convince everyone to send him to the Davinite lodge to turn him to chaos. You are arguing on the basis of what you 'think' happened, or you are just lying. I said It was someone else who posted that quote.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 20:40:25


 
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
If you read what I said this last page and a half then you will see I don't state anywhere that Lorgar came up with the lodges, just that Erebus started spreading them after Lorgar's conversion. The point was to show that Horus didn't come up with the idea like it says in your book quote, the WB were already doing it behind his back, because the lodge was not allowed before Horus was turned as the Emperor did not want such practices.

As for the other thread, good luck. I haven't posted in the background forum for a good while, since before you joined even. So yeah, good luck trying to find that.



Well I proved that wrong, Erebus started spreading the lodges way way before Lorgars conversion. Horus did come up with the idea, I've proven that with a quote from false gods, to disprove that you have to provide evidence for it, how can you say he did't when its in the novel. Horus planned to spread the lodges, Erebus just needed the lodges on the Warmasters fleet to get him to Davin and convince everyone to send him to the Davinite lodge to turn him to chaos. You are arguing on the basis of what you 'think' happened, or you are just lying. I said It was someone else who posted that quote.

How have you proved me wrong, you haven't provided any quote that shows Erebus started spreading the lodges before Lorgar's conversion. My quotes from First Heretic directly contradicts your statement:

Page 341-342
Lorgar: "Take the truth to Erebus and Kor Phaeron. While I am gone, they will be the Legion's lords, and they will orchestrate the spread of the true faith in the shadows of my father's empire. I shall return to them soon."

You do realize False Gods takes place long after Lorgar fell to Chaos right? The books describe the years up to the HH, First Heretic the decades. Horus only wants to spread the lodges after he falls to Chaos.

Also Erebus didn't need the lodges to get Horus to Davin. Erebus orchestrated that Horus's steward on Davin's moon turned to Chaos/traitor (because such an insult would force Horus to go back), forcing Horus to return to the scene of his previous compliance where Erebus could ensure Horus got stabbed by the magic dagger he stole and taken to the Davinite lodges. Erebus just used the LW lodges to gain trust to force this outcome and make people like Abaddon and little Horus more receptive towards his solution, they don't openly spread Chaos yet (most traitor marines are pretty disgusted by the idea of Chaos and Horus misunderstands it as a tool, the WB aren't telling the full story beyond preaching against the Emperor).

As for the Warmaster comment, didn't see your edit, sorry, comment withdrawn.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 20:53:52


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
If you read what I said this last page and a half then you will see I don't state anywhere that Lorgar came up with the lodges, just that Erebus started spreading them after Lorgar's conversion. The point was to show that Horus didn't come up with the idea like it says in your book quote, the WB were already doing it behind his back, because the lodge was not allowed before Horus was turned as the Emperor did not want such practices.

As for the other thread, good luck. I haven't posted in the background forum for a good while, since before you joined even. So yeah, good luck trying to find that.


I only added commas to the edit, reading back i realised that you might have misunderstood without them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 21:02:25


 
   
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No, Abaddon told Loken that Erebus invited him in, not that Erebus was the founder. Nowhere does it explicitly state that Erebus was there when the lodges were founded in the LW 60 years before the HH. He might have been there, but nothing so far points to the fact that he was.

Also Loken took Sejanus's place in the Mournival, nowhere is it stated that Sejanus was a member of the lodge iirc.

Again, by the time of the Ullanor Crusade, Lorgar had already been turned into a traitor. He was censured by the Emperor decades before on Monarchia and after Ullanor the Emperor could not have censored Lorgar because he left for Terra. Your timeline is mixed up.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
If you read what I said this last page and a half then you will see I don't state anywhere that Lorgar came up with the lodges, just that Erebus started spreading them after Lorgar's conversion. The point was to show that Horus didn't come up with the idea like it says in your book quote, the WB were already doing it behind his back, because the lodge was not allowed before Horus was turned as the Emperor did not want such practices.

As for the other thread, good luck. I haven't posted in the background forum for a good while, since before you joined even. So yeah, good luck trying to find that.



I did prove that wrong, Abaddon said that Erebus created the lodge. Hadtur Sejanus was in the lodge and he died a year after the Ullanor crusade which was way way before Lorgar turned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, Abaddon told Loken that Erebus invited him in, not that Erebus was the founder. Nowhere does it explicitly state that Erebus was there when the lodges were founded in the LW 60 years before the HH. He might have been there, but nothing so far points to the fact that he was.

Also Loken took Sejanus's place in the Mournival, nowhere is it stated that Sejanus was a member of the lodge iirc.

Again, by the time of the Ullanor Crusade, Lorgar had already been turned into a traitor. He was censured by the Emperor decades before on Monarchia and after Ullanor the Emperor could not have censored Lorgar because he left for Terra. Your timeline is mixed up.


'What was Ignace talking about, Ezekyle? Was it a lodge medal that passed between you and Erebus?'
Abaddon looked directly at Loken and said, 'I can't say.'
'Then it was.'
'I. Can't. Say.'
'Damn you, Ezekyle. Secrets and hidden things, my brother, I can't abide them. This is exactly why I can't return to the warrior lodge.
Aximand and Torgaddon have both asked me to, but I won't, not now. Tell me: is Erebus part of the lodge now? Was he always part of
it or did you bring him in on the journey here?'
'You heard Serghar's words at the meeting. You know I can't speak of what happens within the circles of the lodge.'
Loken stepped in close to Abaddon, chest plate to chest plate, and said, 'You'll tell me now, Ezekyle. I smell something rank here and I
swear if you lie to me I'll know.'
'You think to bully me, little one?' laughed Abaddon, but Loken saw the lie in his bluster.
'Yes, Ezekyle, I do. Now tell me.'
Abaddon's eyes flickered to the entrance of the yurt.
'Very well,' he said. 'I'll tell you, but what I say goes no further.'
Loken nodded and Abaddon said, 'We did not bring Erebus into the lodge.'
'No?' asked Loken, his disbelief plain.
'No,' repeated Abaddon. 'It was Erebus who brought us in.'
Erebus, brother Astartes, First Chaplain of the Word Bearers…

Erebus brought all of them into the lodge. No wonder you get so much wrong, I give you evidence and still your mind cannot except it and you create your own version.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/07/03 21:09:49


 
   
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Reread it, Loken asks if Erebus is now part of the lodge. Abaddon states that Erebus was the one who invited him in, not that he was the creator 60/50 years ago.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
Reread it, Loken asks if Erebus is now part of the lodge. Abaddon states that Erebus was the one who invited him in, not that he was the creator 60/50 years ago.


Well obviously he was the creator, if it wasn't him it was Kor Phearan not lorgar as it couldn't have been lorgar.
   
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No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.

Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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Earth

Wait... is Delvarus trying to say that Erebus created all the lodges or that he came up with the idea?
   
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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.


No you aren't the whole argument is about who started the HH Erebus or Lorgar. That's not what you were arguing at all. Anyway it was created by the Davinites, Erebus brought the lodge to the Luna Wolves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 21:17:59


 
   
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I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


 
   
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 Ketara wrote:
I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


True, but he utilised them to use them in the Luna Wolves is the point. Davinites created the lodges.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/03 21:29:05


 
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


True, but he utilised them to use them in the Luna Wolves is the point. Davinites created the lodges.

They copied them from the Davinites, who did have them as Chaos cults, but back then the legions had no idea what Chaos was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.


No you aren't the whole argument is about who started the HH Erebus or Lorgar. That's not what you were arguing at all. Anyway it was created by the Davinites, Erebus brought the lodge to the Luna Wolves.

No, the argument I made was that if Lorgar hadn't turned then the HH wouldn't have been as bad, seeing as Lorgar commanded the 2nd biggest legion and if him and the Ultramarines weren't fighting each other its doubtful that Horus would have gotten as close as he did. Plus Angron would have just died, further reducing the effectiveness of the World Eaters. Who really started the HH depends on how you view it (you could even argue it was the Emperor), Erebus certainly started the events leading up to the fall of Horus and is the direct reason, but Lorgar had already fallen too by the time Erebus went to Horus. Lorgar was more concerned about the other legions and trusted Erebus to do his thing.

The lodges were founded after bringing Davin's moon into compliance. The WB were also there alongside the Luna Wolves, but its never stated if Erebus was there for the founding and Erebus only openly switched to spreading Chaos at least a decade later.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/04 06:06:44


Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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In the Beast arises series their was a great argument where a Iron Warrior Warsmith argued that it was possible that the both the Imperial Truth and the Imperial Creed were correct, that Lorgar was premature in seeing the Emperor as a God but that he became a God during the Horus Heresy and that the Emperor didn't hate the Chaos gods he only wanted to become one of them.

   
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 Formosa wrote:
Wait... is Delvarus trying to say that Erebus created all the lodges or that he came up with the idea?


No I've explicitly stated many times that the Davinites created the lodges but Erebus used them and created the Astartes lodges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


True, but he utilised them to use them in the Luna Wolves is the point. Davinites created the lodges.

They copied them from the Davinites, who did have them as Chaos cults, but back then the legions had no idea what Chaos was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.


No you aren't the whole argument is about who started the HH Erebus or Lorgar. That's not what you were arguing at all. Anyway it was created by the Davinites, Erebus brought the lodge to the Luna Wolves.

No, the argument I made was that if Lorgar hadn't turned then the HH wouldn't have been as bad, seeing as Lorgar commanded the 2nd biggest legion and if him and the Ultramarines weren't fighting each other its doubtful that Horus would have gotten as close as he did. Plus Angron would have just died, further reducing the effectiveness of the World Eaters. Who really started the HH depends on how you view it (you could even argue it was the Emperor), Erebus certainly started the events leading up to the fall of Horus and is the direct reason, but Lorgar had already fallen too by the time Erebus went to Horus. Lorgar was more concerned about the other legions and trusted Erebus to do his thing.

The lodges were founded after bringing Davin's moon into compliance. The WB were also there alongside the Luna Wolves, but its never stated if Erebus was there for the founding and Erebus only openly switched to spreading Chaos at least a decade later.


That's not your argument, the whole argument is that you think Lorgar started the HH when in fact it was Erebus and possibly Kor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/04 14:45:24


 
   
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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Wait... is Delvarus trying to say that Erebus created all the lodges or that he came up with the idea?


No I've explicitly stated many times that the Davinites created the lodges but Erebus used them and created the Astartes lodges.

There is simply no lore to back this up. All we know about the origin of the lodges of the Luna Wolves is that they copied the structure out of grudging respect after the first compliance of Davin's Moon. Nowhere does it state that Erebus created the Luna Wolves lodges, he wasn't even detached to them when they were founded.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


True, but he utilised them to use them in the Luna Wolves is the point. Davinites created the lodges.

They copied them from the Davinites, who did have them as Chaos cults, but back then the legions had no idea what Chaos was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.


No you aren't the whole argument is about who started the HH Erebus or Lorgar. That's not what you were arguing at all. Anyway it was created by the Davinites, Erebus brought the lodge to the Luna Wolves.

No, the argument I made was that if Lorgar hadn't turned then the HH wouldn't have been as bad, seeing as Lorgar commanded the 2nd biggest legion and if him and the Ultramarines weren't fighting each other its doubtful that Horus would have gotten as close as he did. Plus Angron would have just died, further reducing the effectiveness of the World Eaters. Who really started the HH depends on how you view it (you could even argue it was the Emperor), Erebus certainly started the events leading up to the fall of Horus and is the direct reason, but Lorgar had already fallen too by the time Erebus went to Horus. Lorgar was more concerned about the other legions and trusted Erebus to do his thing.

The lodges were founded after bringing Davin's moon into compliance. The WB were also there alongside the Luna Wolves, but its never stated if Erebus was there for the founding and Erebus only openly switched to spreading Chaos at least a decade later.


That's not your argument, the whole argument is that you think Lorgar started the HH when in fact it was Erebus and possibly Kor.

Listen Delvarus, this whole thing started off with you claiming I said that if Lorgar hadn't fallen the HH could have been avoided, which I hadn't said. Then I provided you the quotes from First Heretic to show you that Lorgar set the events in motion in which Erebus ended up turning Horus. Now that is in no way taking away the agency of Erebus and Erbus certainly might have tried if Lorgar hadn't turned (which is a direct result of the Emperor's censure, making him the original source that set the events of the HH in motion). But the fact of the matter is that Lorgar turning gave Erebus the chance to do what he did. Erebus worked on the details in the Luna Wolves, Lorgar on the bigger picture, its all there in First Heretic.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/04 15:05:36


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 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
Wait... is Delvarus trying to say that Erebus created all the lodges or that he came up with the idea?


No I've explicitly stated many times that the Davinites created the lodges but Erebus used them and created the Astartes lodges.

There is simply no lore to back this up. All we know about the origin of the lodges of the Luna Wolves is that they copied the structure out of grudging respect after the first compliance of Davin's Moon. Nowhere does it state that Erebus created the Luna Wolves lodges, he wasn't even detached to them when they were founded.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
I was always under the impression that the lodges predated Erebus/Lorgar's fall, and that Erebus simply utilised them as usefully placed secret societies to spread Chaos subsequently.


True, but he utilised them to use them in the Luna Wolves is the point. Davinites created the lodges.

They copied them from the Davinites, who did have them as Chaos cults, but back then the legions had no idea what Chaos was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
No, I agree fully with you that it wasn't Lorgar who came up with the specific idea of using lodges. I'm saying it was unclear if Erebus founded the lodge decades back or if he came in to the Luna Wolves and coopted the lodge structure to work his dark ways inside the Luna Wolves and expanded them.


No you aren't the whole argument is about who started the HH Erebus or Lorgar. That's not what you were arguing at all. Anyway it was created by the Davinites, Erebus brought the lodge to the Luna Wolves.

No, the argument I made was that if Lorgar hadn't turned then the HH wouldn't have been as bad, seeing as Lorgar commanded the 2nd biggest legion and if him and the Ultramarines weren't fighting each other its doubtful that Horus would have gotten as close as he did. Plus Angron would have just died, further reducing the effectiveness of the World Eaters. Who really started the HH depends on how you view it (you could even argue it was the Emperor), Erebus certainly started the events leading up to the fall of Horus and is the direct reason, but Lorgar had already fallen too by the time Erebus went to Horus. Lorgar was more concerned about the other legions and trusted Erebus to do his thing.

The lodges were founded after bringing Davin's moon into compliance. The WB were also there alongside the Luna Wolves, but its never stated if Erebus was there for the founding and Erebus only openly switched to spreading Chaos at least a decade later.


That's not your argument, the whole argument is that you think Lorgar started the HH when in fact it was Erebus and possibly Kor.

Listen Delvarus, this whole thing started off with you claiming I said that if Lorgar hadn't fallen the HH could have been avoided, which I hadn't said. Then I provided you the quotes from First Heretic to show you that Lorgar set the events in motion in which Erebus ended up turning Horus. Now that is in no way taking away the agency of Erebus and Erbus certainly might have tried if Lorgar hadn't turned (which is a direct result of the Emperor's censure, making him the original source that set the events of the HH in motion). But the fact of the matter is that Lorgar turning gave Erebus the chance to do what he did. Erebus worked on the details in the Luna Wolves, Lorgar on the bigger picture, its all there in First Heretic.



I said you said that Lorgar started the HH, not that it could have been avoided.

How many times do I have to post this:

'What was Ignace talking about, Ezekyle? Was it a lodge medal that passed between you and Erebus?' Abaddon looked directly at Loken and said, 'I can't say.' 'Then it was.' 'I. Can't. Say.' 'Damn you, Ezekyle. Secrets and hidden things, my brother, I can't abide them. This is exactly why I can't return to the warrior lodge. Aximand and Torgaddon have both asked me to, but I won't, not now. Tell me: is Erebus part of the lodge now? Was he always part of it or did you bring him in on the journey here?' 'You heard Serghar's words at the meeting. You know I can't speak of what happens within the circles of the lodge.' Loken stepped in close to Abaddon, chest plate to chest plate, and said, 'You'll tell me now, Ezekyle. I smell something rank here and I swear if you lie to me I'll know.' 'You think to bully me, little one?' laughed Abaddon, but Loken saw the lie in his bluster. 'Yes, Ezekyle, I do. Now tell me.' Abaddon's eyes flickered to the entrance of the yurt. 'Very well,' he said. 'I'll tell you, but what I say goes no further.' Loken nodded and Abaddon said, 'We did not bring Erebus into the lodge.' 'No?' asked Loken, his disbelief plain. 'No,' repeated Abaddon. 'It was Erebus who brought us in.' Erebus, brother Astartes, First Chaplain of the Word Bearers…

Erebus created the lodge in the Luna Wolves fleet, Hastur Sejanus was in the lodge and he died one year after the Ullanor campaign, way way before Lorgar ever fell to chaos. Trying to dispute this is just getting silly now. No where have you given any evidence to show that the Luna Wolves created the lodge themselves, you can't even suggest that with this ^ quote, plus nowhere in the lore does it say that they did, All that is in the lore is that Abaddon said Erebus created the lodge on the Luna Wolves fleet.

They didn't copy it from Davins moons. Erebus copied it and then created a lodge within the Luna Wolves.

"'They are a feral people, controlled by warrior castes, but then we all know this. Our own quiet order bears the hallmarks of their
warrior lodges in its structure and practices. Each of their lodges venerates one of the autochthonic predators of their lands, and this is
where our order differs. In my time on Davin during its compliance, I studied the lodges and their ways in search of corruption or
religious profanity. I found nothing of that, but in one lodge I found what I believe might be our only hope of saving the Warmaster.'
Despite himself, Aximand became caught up in Erebus's words, his oratory worthy of the iterators, with the precise modulation of tone
and timbre to entrance his audience"

Your quote "Yes, the Luna Wolves lodge existed before the fall to Chaos of Lorgar, but Erebus had nothing to do with it. Only after Lorgar fell to Chaos did Erebus start using the lodge to turn the Luna Wolves and spread them to other legions. Erebus wasn't attached to the Luna Wolves when the lodge started amd was only detached after the fall to Chaos. "

Your quote said nothing of the kind. All that quote said is Lorgars conspiracy is wide.

Lorgar did not start the HH.

This message was edited 15 times. Last update was at 2018/07/04 18:33:17


 
   
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You said that "The HH would have happened without Lorgar at all.", but I never denied that. But if Lorgar wasn't turned then it would be an entirely different HH.

Again, how many times do I have to explain that that book quote says absolutely nothing about the founding? All it proves is that Erebus got Abaddon and Aximand in, not that he was there for the creation lf the lodges decades ago. Again, your other quote isn't proof that Erebus founded the LW lodges, just that he claimed he studied the original ones to convince them to take Horus there, but Erebus had already laid the groundwork and is actively manipulating the LW, by this time hence his claims.

Where does the book say Sejanus was part of the lodge? Sejanus is only mentioned in context to his membership of the Mournival iirc. That's the place Loken takes. Unless you mistake it for the parts that Sejanus is in when its actually Erebus pretending to be him to Horus.

Go read First Heretic, Lorgar fell years before Ullanor. Monarchia took place before the Emperor left for Terra, which is directly after Ullanor. Lorgar fell before Ullanor. Its simple, Lorgar gets censured by the Emperor, who still participates in the GC. Immediatetly after this Lorgar goes to the EoT to learn the truth. Then he comes back and is at the parades on Ullanor, when the Emperor leaves the GC and returns to Terra. Lorgar got corrupted in the EoT, before Ullanor.

The LW did copy the lodges from Davin's moon, this has been part of the lore for a while now. I can dig out my books after work.

Again, my quote does say that:
"Erebus now stands at the Warmaster's side."
Now meaning he wasn't standing at the Warmaster's side when the whole web got started but he is now. Lorgar was in on it from the start. And seeing as the start was after the compliance of Davin'a moon its hard to argue that Erebus, still attached to his own legion had the ability to quickly create lodges in the LW and have them still be around decades later when he joined Horus's fleet.

And if you want to get that pedantic, neither Erebus nor Lorgar started the HH, Horus did. But its undeniable that Lorgar did just as much work preparing for the HH as Erebus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here, to disprove the fact that Erebus is said to have founded the lodges in the Luna Wolves.

Horus Rising page 246
But fraternal lodges did exist within the Astartes, occult and private. According to rumours, they had been active in the XVI Legion for a long time. Some six decades earlier [my note: this means its at least a decade before the WB went over to Chaos as per Lorgar having prepared for the HH for 50 years.], the Luna Wolves, in collaboration with the XVII Legion, the Word Bearers, had undertaken the compliance of a world called Davin. A feral place, Davin had been controlled by a remarkable warrior caste, whose savage nobility had won the respects of the Astartes sent to pacify their warring feuds. The Davinite warriors had ruled their world through a complex structure of warrior lodges, quasi-religious societies that had venerated various local predators. By cultural osmosis, the lodge practices had been quietly absorbed by the Legions.

See, no mention of Erebus having founded them, them having been founded at least a decade before the WB turned to Chaos and decades before Erebus was detached to the Luna Wolves.

This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2018/07/05 17:07:09


 
   
 
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