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Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Yes that is exactly what I meant. It was not an RPG, I know, I played a lot then, but it was very similar in may ways in the depth and complexity that the rules went. So, like an RPG, in some aspects - but not the same as.
Mildly amused that small comment created a page or so of argument, after a very condescending retort.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I can sort of see his point; comparing finecast models to metal originals, resin is better at holding sharp edges than metal (e.g. the edges of Space Marine armour plates). Some prefer one, some the other.
Finecast is not resin, it's trash.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
You don't need a game master or a game to be cooperative to be an RPG. Games of 40k are essentially a one shot RPG adventure with each player taking on the role of their army and the rules the role of the game master. RPG systems usually have more robust rules than other games so yes, having a bunch of rules and wargear options does make the game closer to being an RPG. Hell in 8th they even have a section in the rulebook dedicated to narrative play. A game doesn't need a group of people with 6 different kinds of dice being told what's happening by a guy with a beard and a god complex to be considered an RPG.
You don´t need a GM for a rpg? Jesus, why have I showed up all the time for those D&D Ravenloft scenarios when the player characters could have sorted it all out by themselves without someone telling the story and controlling the npcs! This is really bad trolling.
Strg Alt wrote: Do you know what a rpg is? I have never witnessed a dungeon master in 2nd or the procedure to roll up a character with stats like STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS & CHA prior a game.
Do you? There are way more RPGs than just D&D.
Please tell me of your 2nd 40Krpg characters.
Please tell me where they said it WAS an RPG and not just LIKE an RPG.
What I got from them was that it had tons of small, fiddly rules more appropriate for an RPG than a Wargame.
To those who actually posted the comparison, let me know if I'm right, if you would.
Well, it is not even like a rpg. You are comparing apples with oranges.
Small, fiddly rules? This is called detail and this great concept was thrown overboard to water down the game in order to make it palatable for nearly everyone.
You don't need a game master or a game to be cooperative to be an RPG. Games of 40k are essentially a one shot RPG adventure with each player taking on the role of their army and the rules the role of the game master. RPG systems usually have more robust rules than other games so yes, having a bunch of rules and wargear options does make the game closer to being an RPG. Hell in 8th they even have a section in the rulebook dedicated to narrative play. A game doesn't need a group of people with 6 different kinds of dice being told what's happening by a guy with a beard and a god complex to be considered an RPG.
You don´t need a GM for a rpg? Jesus, why have I showed up all the time for those D&D Ravenloft scenarios when the player characters could have sorted it all out by themselves without someone telling the story and controlling the npcs! This is really bad trolling.
Apparently saying you don't need a GM for a game to be an RPG is now the exact same as saying all RPGs can be played without a GM.
Andykp wrote: I prefer the look of metal sculpts. Something more rounded and appealing about the detail.
That doesn't make any sense. Anything that can be done in metal can be done in resin.
It can be done in resin but the material gives it a different finish and aesthetic. There’s something about metal casts that aren’t as harsh as resin. I’ve had resin casts of metal models from recasteds (naughty I know) and they didn’t look the same.
Don’t get me wrong. I hate painting and gaming with metal, plastic is my fave material but metal models can look lovely in a way resin doesn’t capture it. It’s subjective but that’s me.
Insectum7 wrote: Well if you're talking about raw materials, then you're getting better value for your dollar
That doesn't make any sense at all.
You made the argument that metal as a material is more expensive. However most models GW sold in metal, that were later made in resin, the metal model was cheaper. Therefore, better value for your dollar, as you paid less to get a more expensive material.
What I miss most is character customization.
I miss being able to customize my dude out however I wanted. This goes hand in hand with missing the customization of the model kits. Plastic is such a good medium for the game because it is so easy to do conversions with, and easy to make multi-pose sprues with. Mono-pose just wastes all that potential.
I also miss many of the older named characters, especially the ones that had rules, and are still mentioned, but now aren't playable. Even if they didn't make models, letting people convert their own would be nice.
As for the metal/plastic/resin debate, I prefer plastic. The newest ones look even sharper then the old metals, hold their paint better, are easier to convert, and are lighter.
Brother Castor wrote: Whilst I'm nostalgic about the old metal models, I can't deny that plastic is so much better.
Sure, and no one is arguing that. What I'm arguing is that by leaving metal they fundamentally changed what they can do and will do in the future...and it's a net loss. No one is saying plastic isn't a great medium to put miniatures in. Plastic all day every day for vehicles, multi-part kits, basic troops, etc. Sure. And no one is saying "oh, make the new Celestine in metal". She's a neat model but terrible from a gaming perspective, a transport perspective, etc. I'm not advocating bringing back dreadsocks either.
But would you trade one mono-pose plastic sprue with one weapon load out....for potentially three or four metal miniatures of the same unit entry? Giving you more choice (and likely a much cheaper cost). Also, when Finecast disappears how many people think that Imperial Fist, Black Templar, and Crimson Fist (etc.) characters are going to be put into expensive plastic moulds? I know how GW could tackle this, but I don't see them doing it.
Of course, I'm biased because the Eldar range never had better models than it did in the 90's with Goodwin Eldar. I love a few of the new plastic kits, and personally 2D poses don't bug me. I also love not spending extra time assembling a basic infantry model from 6-10 plastic pieces.
Spoiler:
Oh, and I also don't have problems chipping. Would I support plastic Eldar aspects and new guardians/dire avengers? Sure. Do I want a plastic single-pose Psyker for each role for $20-30? No I do not.
Elbows wrote: While we're on the subject, I'll bring up the often-clash-about-bugaboo. Metal miniatures.
I think GW lost a huge benefit when they moved away from metal miniatures. Blisters were a great way to have a kid spend his $7-10 in his pocket on a figure he would rush home and paint. My Eldar army had a lot of squads of three...why? Because the Fire Dragon blister came with three minis and it's what I spent my $9 on the local game store that weekend.
It also meant far more unique characters, named characters, and event characters. It was far easier for GW to say "hey what about this cool scenario we're doing, or this campaign book, let's whip up a handful of special metal minis". Because metal allows you to do that quickly and without anywhere near the complexity of having a factory in Chinese tool an expensive machine to produce a plastic sprue. There is a reason for GW launching a unit in a codex back in the 90's and releasing 2-3 different sculpts of that model...because they could and it didn't break the bank.
Plastic was a smart move for squads and vehicles, but they should have kept metal around for character models. Neither Finecast nor the way they price plastic individual minis lets them do what they used to do. It's one of the reasons we had so many miniatures for Necromunda, Mordheim, Warhammer Quest, Gorkamorka, etc. You can do a hell of a lot more minis in metal than you can plastic...and if it doesn't work out, you're not out any money, just some sculpting time and a few round-diskette spin molds. The way GW is going...when they retire the last of the Finecast - you'll probably see a marked drop in special characters for anybody other than the big codices/armies. Unless GW adopts a new strategy (i.e. multi heroes in a plastic sprue) the days of seeing characters and named minis for extraneous Space Marine chapters is all but gone.
You know, they still do packs that have about 3-4 figures (I'm not talking the character models either), but they're a little more expensive. There is at least 4 Eldar guardians for $10, 5 Imperial Guard for $10, 3 Space Marines for $10 and 3 Primaris for $15. It's just that you need so many figures for regular 40K, no one bothers to buy the small packs. They'd be good deals for Kill Team, I suspect.
And I'm glad metal is going away (I hate working with it), and wish Finecast would disappear with it.
I only own metal model there doesn't seem to be much difference in looks between them and the plastic GK models. But I know that some really good looking model could never be done in plastic like the diaznetts for example.
I guess plastic is nice, and I understand it was a huge improvment over mono pose metal models back when plastic multi part boxs were intreduced. But if the future of GW models is suppose to be something like primaris or Stormcast models, then all that was good about plastic is gone. Snap fit models, with few to no weapon options. No good ways to recast the models or weapons, if you need those 10 plasmas. But the worse things are plastic mono pose characters, not only does GW seem to be hellbend on making the models as impossible to transport as possible, but they also clock as much for them as they do for whole squads of dudes.
Lets take a GK example, a Voldus is hard to impossible to different from a regular joe Thunder hammer Termintor model, specially by the opponent. Yet he costs as if he was a multi part box with a ton of parts.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
[1,800] Chaos Knights | 
[1,250] Thousand Sons | 
[1,000] Grey Knights | 40K editions: RT, 8, 9, 10 | 
