Grey Knights

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**CthuluIsSpy**

Stux wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Stux wrote:
Wow. That's a lot of salt to process!

Whether you like it is not terribly relevant to me. In fact it's precisely my point. You said you didn't care if the shakeup pissed some people off. Well welcome to 8e, the edition that shook everything up, pissed some people off, but is generally still regarded on balance to be a very positive step.

So yeah, they will shake up GKs. They'll give them a bunch of Primaris based new units, and it'll be a big change to the available tactics and army builds. And judging from attitude you'll probably hate it in the face of most people having a blast.

Only if they don't do a good job. You seem to misunderstand. Its not the change I don't like. Its that they didn't do it right.

For its flaws, I'd still disagree. All in all I think they did a great job with 8e. They didn't do SOME things right. GK's current state being one of them. But overall for me it is a massive step forward from 7e.

Well, yes, we can agree on that.
7th was terrible. I like 8th too, its just that I think they could have done a lot more refining, especially in terms of how they handled the codices.
In fact, most of the problems I have with 8th is because its still too much like 7th; the flyer movement rules and the overwatch rule are a direct port over from 7th edition. And they are they still terrible.

**Marmatag**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
IronBrand wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Great point, balance is a binary state. It is either perfect, or awful, with 0 middle ground. It is impossible to make iterative improvements to a game. Since GW cannot make the game perfect in 1 update, they should logically never make updates, because it's wasted energy. At least, according to Dakka Dakka.
That's what most of the complaints about the rule of 3 seem to boil down to on here. Complaining about how even though it dealt with stuff like flyrant spam they should do away with it because it didn't solve every problem with unit balance.

That's because Rule Of Three doesn't fix units that are broken.

Rule of 3 is absolutely mandatory for this game not to be a total joke. I hope it becomes a permanent rule. One of the best rules they've released.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Marmatag wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
IronBrand wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Great point, balance is a binary state. It is either perfect, or awful, with 0 middle ground. It is impossible to make iterative improvements to a game. Since GW cannot make the game perfect in 1 update, they should logically never make updates, because it's wasted energy. At least, according to Dakka Dakka.
That's what most of the complaints about the rule of 3 seem to boil down to on here. Complaining about how even though it dealt with stuff like flyrant spam they should do away with it because it didn't solve every problem with unit balance.

That's because Rule Of Three doesn't fix units that are broken.

Rule of 3 is absolutely mandatory for this game not to be a total joke. I hope it becomes a permanent rule. One of the best rules they've released.

How do you figure? That's a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

**Bharring**

Better than letting the gunshot wound go untreated.

Treating the gunshot wound would be ideal, but that takes time.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Bharring wrote:
Better than letting the gunshot wound go untreated.

Treating the gunshot wound would be ideal, but that takes time.

And how would one treat it?
Which units are OP? Why are they OP? Do they serve a specific role in the army that nothing else can fill? Are they only OP if taken en masse? These are all important questions when concerning balance.

**Bharring**

I'll expand my comment.

The questions:
Which units are OP?
Why are they OP?
Do they serve a specific role in the army that nothing else can fill?
Are they only OP if taken en masse?

Are all non-trivial to answer, even for a single army or certain units. Answering all those questions for every unit in the game? Not a "get it done now" thing. Hence, the need for a bandaid. Rule of 3 minimizes (to some extent) the damage caused by balance mistakes. Which makes the game better.

Ideally, it'd be used temporarily while they fix all their mistakes. Practically, the game is too complex for mere mortals to truly balance. A better job than current? That's easy. But that's almost always easy.

They believed 'Rule of 3' would do more good for balance than anything else they could get out there in as short a timeframe. I think they were right. That shouldn't preclude answering Cthululs questions. But why wait until we've answered those to implement the bandaid?

**Marmatag**

Because some units aren't OP when you bring 3 of them, but are OP when you bring 10 (or, a lot).

Because cost scaling is linear, whereas tabletop value isn't.

Are 3 Plagueburst Crawlers OP? No, but they're strong.
Are 6 Plagueburst Crawlers OP? Yeah.

Are 3 Ravagers OP? No, but they're strong.
Are 8 Ravagers OP? Yes.

Are 3 Flyrants OP? No, but they're strong.
Are 10 Flyrants OP? Yes, clearly.

Are 3 Commanders OP? No, but they're strong.
Are 10 Commanders OP? Yes, clearly.

Etc

**Xenomancers**

Marmatag wrote:
Because some units aren't OP when you bring 3 of them, but are OP when you bring 10 (or, a lot).

Because cost scaling is linear, whereas tabletop value isn't.

Are 3 Plagueburst Crawlers OP? No, but they're strong.
Are 6 Plagueburst Crawlers OP? Yeah.

Are 3 Ravagers OP? No, but they're strong.
Are 8 Ravagers OP? Yes.

Are 3 Flyrants OP? No, but they're strong.
Are 10 Flyrants OP? Yes, clearly.

Are 3 Commanders OP? No, but they're strong.
Are 10 Commanders OP? Yes, clearly.

Etc

Isn't it more like - 3 of these type units aren't OP because you might be forced to take another unit that is not OP? Yet - can still load your list up with 3 more OP units of the same power level and end up with an equally powerful army?

The issue is cost. Undercosted units are undercosted whether you have 1 or 10 or them.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rule of 3 is GW's half assed method of capping an unbalanced unit. Well...at least they can only bring 3 of them.

Or in the case of lots of units - they can bring a lot more just by taking units in Squads...or with a slightly different data slate. Or if it's a troop they can take unlimited. The rule is not very good IMO. I am fine playing with it though - I am for anything that adds variety.

**Marmatag**

You aren't understanding the concept of relative rate of return.

Effectiveness isn't linear, points are.

**Jaxler**

grouchoben wrote:
I'm going to try and be the little ray of sunshine that says 'sure, go ahead and play Grey Knights'!

Their codex was early in the release schedule, meaning they have some veryyyy conservative rules-writing: GW were scared of breaking the game, due to their combo-style psyker powers and their super-common teleportation ability.

So go in with your eyes open: you will be facing an up-hill challenge. having said that there are a handful of strong units you can base your army around, as long as you don't mind the idea of ALSO buying some guard, or ad mech? (The Knights function best as a strike force, dropping the hammer whilst another detachment rains shots and holds objectives.)

So Voldus is a great HQ, great caster, very good in close combat. Draigo is tough, vicious in combat, and buffs well - but he's expensive. the Grandmaster in a nemesis dreadknight suit is expensive but very powerful. The basic troop choice of strike squad is great, and lays down lots of dakka. One venerable dread in a list is a great option, as uniquely, he can hide behind line of sight blocking terrain, and snip away at enemy tanks. Your apothecaries are the best available to marines, and they function as action heroes, hitting things on the head with massive hammers, and healing themselves or others when they get damaged. After that there's some pretty good units (Paladins, Stormravens, Interceptors), and then a sharp falloff.

So it's doable, and I suspect Grey Knights are top of the list for armies to get a buff when the new CHapter Approved tweaks come out. Long story short, if you think they're cool, then follow your heart. Research your faction. Buy and build wisely. And take immense satisfaction when you win against players using your cunning, not your auto-win button.

Voldus is horrible in a grey Knights army because any spells he’d cast are trash offensive dmg spells, or he’d be casting utility spells that your other units need.

Draigo is overcosted and inferior to other 200-250 point beat sticks. Compare him to Celestine, Slamguinius or shield captain bikers.

**grouchoben**

Voldus is great dropping in with a small team, buffing them, casting vortex, etc. You're right that he's trash in a pure GK list due to oversubscription of spells, but I'm not recommending that (who would?). If you're taking a GK batallion or vanguard though, he's excellent for getting your key spells off, and smashing things with his hammer. Maybe GK's best HQ?

Draigo is overcosted compared to the 3 most undercosted HQs in the game, correct.

**Slayer-Fan123**

How overcosted is Draigo though to the other Chapter Master equivalents though? He's got the same capabilities offensively and defensively but he's REALLY lacking in the support department.

**grouchoben**

He has better capabilities offensively and defensively than Dante or Azrael though! S8/-4/D3 vs S6/-3/D1d3. He also has +1w, can deny twice, is 3++ and is one of the only units in the game that can have a 2++. That's streets ahead of either in defensive profile.

No invuln bubble for him like with Azrael, but exactly the same as Dante's buffing. Plus he can cast 2/deny 2.

He's 240pts vs their 215/180pts, I think that's pretty fair. (Azrael is better imo, but hey, it's not a total wash!)

Draigo is a great beatstick and, if you have 2cp spare, is in the very top bracket of most tanky HQs in the game.

**Karol**

Two questions, how do you get free 2 CP in a GK army and how does a unit of the speed of Draigo get to actually use his beatstickiness ? Because I get how a slamginius gets in to melee, and I get that azrael is a bubble of inv+re-rolls for hellblasters, am not getting how the stuff with draigo should happen. If you take him you have to take one fewer NDKs, this means there is going to be only one NDK and one gets focused fired very fast. So by taking a draigo you would more or less eliminate the only other good HQ for GKs. And you do need a second one for those battalion CP.

Voldus is great dropping in with a small team, buffing them, casting vortex, etc. You're right that he's trash in a pure GK list due to oversubscription of spells, but I'm not recommending that (who would?). If you're taking a GK batallion or vanguard though, he's excellent for getting your key spells off, and smashing things with his hammer. Maybe GK's best HQ?

For fewer points you could have BA hammer cpts and you get 3 units of scouts, and he can't be denied by anything else but something with a detachment of DE. Also same with draigo, I don't know how you get the smashing part with him, everything that does melee is going to be faster then him, so he will either be out of charge range all the time, or he will be the one getting charged and it is not like he is super resilient. He can swing one time after he kicked the bucket, but that is a lot of points invested in to killing 2-3 shining spears.

**grouchoben**

Slamguinius is the most efficient beatstick in the Imperium, maybe the game, so long as you can feed him the CPs... Compare him to ANY other HQ and they will fall short.

**Marmatag**

Draigo is not worth his points.

He doesn't offer enough utility.

Deny the witch is handy, but if you're playing GK you're already saturated with denies.

You can get better, cheaper melee out of a Smash Captain. Even without the relics or stratagems.

As far as Grey Knights go, you are better off including a Bro Cap, because he'll have a 5+++ and be generally cheaper. Or, just spring for another GMNDK.

**Xenomancers**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How overcosted is Draigo though to the other Chapter Master equivalents though? He's got the same capabilities offensively and defensively but he's REALLY lacking in the support department.

Compared to Calgar and Trajen he doesn't seem unreasonably costed. Calgar gives you god mode CP and reduced damage - Tragen can heal wounds or fight again and gives a nice reroll 1's to wound bubble in addition to reroll al hits which all these guys do hes got a 3++ too - Dragio gives you 3++ / psychic abilities and denies and flat 3 damage.

I feel like Calgar is probably the best deal out of all of them though because reroll 1's to wound is available from an Lt. and CP regen helps your army stay in the game longer. Draigo seems like he should be in between these 2. Be costs as much as Trajen.

**Marmatag**

Calgar is actually seen in quality tournament lists.

Now that might have a lot to do with a more robust model line in space marines, but he is a decent mini-replacement to Guilliman depending on what you want to accomplish.

**Xenomancers**

Outside of the GMDK I think the brother captain and voldus are your best HQ options. If only GK had smite similar to TS. Where they could do d3 mortals on a roll of a 10 and 1 on a 5. Plus heros getting normal smite. Then Brother Captain would be a boss.

Then all you gotta do for the daemon rule is make it always 3 and d6 min 3 on an 11. So what if GK wreck daemon...they are supposed to wreck daemon. Plus...that stratagem....

**Forfiter**

Best HQ option is actualy Bro Champ - cheaper and can wound anything on 5+ (4+ with hammerhand, 3+ with trait if you really want to buff him up).

Draigo is useful on 2-3 stormraven build - he is not worth his points alone but with ravens he is useful (and he can gate to stay with them in aura turn 1), otherwise is badly overcosted.

Guys, whole codex is overcosted crap and discussion what is less crappy than another makes no sense. From competitive side GK are dead (MAYBE draigoRavens can play, but not with current Castellan meta) so if you are fielding GK you play friendly game anyway so you can bring paladins, termies, whatever, you play for fun. At least do some stuff like dakka Ven Dred astral aiming to wallhack and teleport that psybolt land rider to enemy face and have some fun

**Marmatag**

Forfiter wrote:
Best HQ option is actualy Bro Champ - cheaper and can wound anything on 5+ (4+ with hammerhand, 3+ with trait if you really want to buff him up).

Draigo is useful on 2-3 stormraven build - he is not worth his points alone but with ravens he is useful (and he can gate to stay with them in aura turn 1), otherwise is badly overcosted.

Guys, whole codex is overcosted crap and discussion what is less crappy than another makes no sense. From competitive side GK are dead (MAYBE draigoRavens can play, but not with current Castellan meta) so if you are fielding GK you play friendly game anyway so you can bring paladins, termies, whatever, you play for fun. At least do some stuff like dakka Ven Dred astral aiming to wallhack and teleport that psybolt land rider to enemy face and have some fun

Essentially this.

I played Draigo Ravens back in 2017 and it was OK. I have an overall winning record with GK at tournaments. But, you just have hard counters, where it's kind of stupid and over before any dice are rolled.