Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I'm not sure what mathhammer for Orks had to do with a wishlist for marines.
I'd be happy with 2 attacks for base marine and a drop to 12 points for now.
I've used primaris and I've used non primaris. The difference in combat output is significant. I feel the 2 attacks idea helps back up the generalist idea of marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/31 05:17:03
Zustiur wrote: I'm not sure what mathhammer for Orks had to do with a wishlist for marines.
I'd be happy with 2 attacks for base marine and a drop to 12 points for now.
I've used primaris and I've used non primaris. The difference in combat output is significant. I feel the 2 attacks idea helps back up the generalist idea of marines.
Agree with the points reduction. About the two base attacks I am not sure about it. I prefer they way improving the weapons. Maybe improve the base attacks on the assault marines. I shoot with marines and mostly I don't want to put them into close combat. On the other side maybe you are right. If primaris has two base attacks why not the straight ones.
But I still prefer a point reduction and weapon improve
Zustiur wrote: I'm not sure what mathhammer for Orks had to do with a wishlist for marines.
I'd be happy with 2 attacks for base marine and a drop to 12 points for now.
I've used primaris and I've used non primaris. The difference in combat output is significant. I feel the 2 attacks idea helps back up the generalist idea of marines.
Agree with the points reduction. About the two base attacks, I am not sure about it. I prefer they way improving the weapons. Maybe improve the base attacks on the assault marines. I shoot with marines and mostly I don't want to put them into close combat. On the other side maybe you are right. If primaris has two base attacks why not the straight ones.
But I still prefer a point reduction and weapon improve
A points drop for equipment would be a nice start and lowering the cost of terminators would go a long way in giving space marines their much needed heavy infantry a much-needed buff. (Or giving each option the codex a special rule accessible if you have an Sgt in the squad, (similar to Aspect Warriors of the Eldar)
Space marines are outperformed in almost every regard on paper and in tournaments, much of the great part of space marines was nerfed very hard by this edition and subpar unit entries that suffer entirely because of over adjusting (Grav Weaponry for example). Or some options completely being left out.
With the ready access to Multiple damage weapons currently out there this edition, there is little reason to take multi wounds like primaris as it means very little if they get blasted apart so commonly by even the most basic weapons from less expensive squads or units.
We also have some of the worst vehicles or overcosted vehicles in the game (other than poor necrons). Its why I dub most of the equipment cost on all weapons in the codex the "Space Marine Tax", Heavy Bolter in guardsmen codex 8 points, Space Marine Codex 10 points... Lascannon 25 pts, Guardsmen Codex : 17 pts. Yeah, that's just a massive mark up unnecessarily.
Twinlinked weaponry are also double the cost of everything making them very risky to take as you could get the same firepower for cheaper from other imperial codexes.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Fun fact: I can charge a full 20-man Crusader Squad with melee weapons into their equivalent points in Boyz and have the privilege of losing when I swing first. Replace the Crusader Squad with literally any other melee unit in the book and the result is the same. So maybe, just maybe, I have a bit of a tough time feeling sympathy for the poor downtrodden Orks.
Obligatory mention of the fact that you can double the attacks of any melee units in the Marine Codex and still be worse per point than Khorne Berzerkers in offensive output bar some edge cases.
Look out, some more wild hyperbole from people wanting sympathy for their poor downtrodden marines.
Did you forget that your Crusaders have melee weapons? Or forget about their pistols. Oh, I know. They forgot their privilege of donning their armour that battle!
Assuming you get your "20 man charge" against a full healthy squad of "30 orks" this is what happens:
Bolt Pistol Shooting
20 * 4/6 * 3/6 * 5/6 = 5.55 Dead Orks
Overwatch
Choppa Boyz with overwatch:
(26 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) + (26 * 1/6 * 2/6 * 3/6 * 2/6) = 1.68 dead crusaders, including Dakka Dakka Dakka!
Melee
37 * 4/6 * 3/6 * 5/6 = 10.27 Dead Orks
And now the Orks strike back
44 * 4/6 * 3/6 * 2/6 = 4.88 Dead Crusaders
Nob w/ Power Klaw
3 * 3/6 * 5/6 * 5/6 = 1.041 Dead Crusaders
So thats 110 points worth of dead orks, 87 Points of dead Crusaders
Followed by the Morale phase which will wipe out at least 1d6 additional Orks.
Also note, this isn't including any of your marine rerolls.
Sorry, should've specified that I was talking about Index prices for Boyz, not the new 7 PPM Boyz. The 1 PPM difference actually lets me win if I manage to get the charge, hence why I roll my eyes at Ork players who gnash their teef about how their army is ruined now.
EDIT: To be more on topic, I think the two biggest issues with the transition from 7th edition to 8th edition from a Space Marine perspective is the change in the AP system and the change in how pistols and charging work.
Previously, a 3+ save was a 3+ save, even against Autocannons and the like. Despite complaints about how it was "unrealistic" that a more powerful weapon had less chance to penetrate I actually think this made more sense; if I'm shooting at the main belt of a battleship it doesn't matter if I use an AK47 or a 6" destroyer cannon; they're both going to bounce harmlessly off the armour, despite the fact that a 6" shell could gut a building while a bullet from an AK47 most certainly couldn't. With the new armour penetration system, Marines really should've dropped to a 2+ save, potentially even better. Sure, you get a 6+ save against AP-3 weapons now, most of which were at least AP3 in the old system, so that's an improvement, but you've lost in power massively against stuff that's AP-1 and AP-2, the stuff that were mostly AP4 in the old system. Plus, there's something absurd with cover being more effective the better your armour save.
Regarding pistols and the loss of attacks from charging, this impacted Marine units heavily because they have few attacks on their profile. In 7th edition Honour Guard had 4 attacks with their Power Weapons on the charge (5 if you brought a banner which you always did, but that's not part of this discussion); in 8th you get 2 attacks and a bolt pistol shot. Sure, you now hit on 3+ rather than 4+, but that's still one hell of a drop in power. Similarly, Thunder Hammer Terminators and Veterans have lost 33% of their hitting power on the charge, which just isn't compensated by not being I1 any longer. The amount of S4 attacks you get dropped on the charge (2 attacks + pistol with chainsword vs. the old 3 attacks + pistol) but is otherwise slightly improved between the 3+ to hit and being able to shoot your pistol in CC, but here's the catch; S4 AP0 melee attacks are rubbish unless you've got an obscene amount of them, like Orks. The loss of quality attacks really hurt the Marine elite melee units.
There's also an argument to be made that the loss of Initiative 4 also hampered Marines, but that's a story for another time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/01 12:00:17
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Wow guys this was a much more enthusiastic response than I was expecting from my first post. i realize a lot of this may seem wishlisty and can in fact sep on the toes of other factions. In an ideal world both the cost of a marine "body" and war gear require some significant adjustment but seeing as I dont think even GW know how to quantify the value of a "point" when determining a models "value" I dont think I am the right guy to mathhammer out that statistical significance. However, I for one dont see any reason why a meltagun costs more than the Space Marine Shooting it? Thats just bonkers to me.
To the hopeful souls desperate for marines to get a second wound. I understand the reasoning behind it but I dont think it would ever happen. it would do amazing things in terms of durability and help them regain some of the fabeled durability of pervious editions. It would "defeat" the purpose of why GW brought about Primaris Marines. But when I think about it, on the subject of Primaris Marines there is a fairly straightforward way to balance them in relation to your "Normal Space Marine" if Marines were to get two wounds. That solution is to just add a point of toughness. There now they are back to what they were introduced as which were IMO "Marines +1"
After a little bit more reflection and reading some of your responses I have come up with a few changes to my initial proposals.
1: No Changes
2: No Changes
3: Only dreadnoughts should benefit from POTMS along with vehicles that already have it. Quad las predators hiding behind LOS blocking terrain, killshot, no penalty to hit and re rolls would be quite silly.
4: No Changes
5: No Changes
6: We really dont need this... However I would like to see a system in place for a "build a hero" options with additional special rules you could "pay points for" for non named characters. Could be cool for people wanting to build their own chapter.
7: Bolt guns, I often forget that other factions get access to bolters... Sorry Sisters of Battle players (All 8 of you. ) and any changes to them need to scale appropriately. SO my new proposed ruling for bolt guns would simply be a simple Space Marine specific special rule.
"Transhuman Physiology" -(chapter) units may treat (Bolt Guns) as "Assault 2" (Storm Bolters) as "Assault 4" and so on and so on. That funky Primaris bolt gun thats already assault that nobody uses anyways? Give it an extra shot or something, I dont give a damn. On the plus side, this makes Hurricane Bolters Insane. My LRC would actually see a table again.
Marines are S4 they are strong enough to support a full auto bolt gun and still shoot accurately. Poor unagumented guardsmen and sisters are still humbly S3.
Until my Men in Black get some much needed love I guess I will continue to play the game on hard mode. Sigismund would have wanted it that way anyways.
"I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years." - Mad Dog Mattis
+1 Attack all around (Minus Characters), This would bring up units like Tactical Squads in versatility, and give Assault Squads a little extra punch.
+1 AP for bolt guns. Bolt guns suck. There's no way around it. This would help them against all types of infantry, against which they extremely underperform.
I really really support +1 attack all around, with the proviso that it has to affect shooting too. There is so much wasted opportunity in raising attacks but not adding a shooting effect to having high attacks. +1 attacks on a basic tactical squad just means you have a unit that's nearly mediocre in close combat and even less good at shooting. +1 attack in combat and a shooting boost from attacks makes way more sense.
as for boltguns sucking, that's yet another reason to give marines +1a and a bonus connected to their shooting attacks. What should it be? You've already said you want -1AP. If they're shooting at a unit that has only one attack, give them a -1ap, why not? Even better, veterans who would then have 3 attacks could get -1AP against marines, ork boyz, and tau suits, anything. You don't even have to give up bolters having their own -1ap, they could have -1 ap and stack it with the attacks bonus, and use that to wipe out 5+ saves like they used to.
Veteran Space Marines are the elites.
What about sanguinary guard, ultramarine honor guard, Tau bodyguard teams and Black Legion Bringers of Despair? they are the elitest above those elites, what about their design space? You've talked about intruding on design space, what do they get when the people they are drawn from already have bs/ws2+?
Well since attacks and LD don't affect shooting, and won't
why not? this is proposed rules. Having three stats exclusively for close combat vs one for shooting is silly when everyone has space ships and guns.
4: Agreed. That's why I think the BS/WS system should be overhauled to allow for more granularity.
You can get granularity by pasting shooting effects onto the basically useless +1A +1Ld that veterans and sergeants have. Shooting veterans like sternguard and shooty chosen have two attacks. Shas'ui fire warrior leaders and shas'ui crisis teams have two attacks that are completely useless because they are specifically supposed to be bad at shooting. So we can just give attacks a shooting function, and then you have to have both good bs and good attacks to be truly good at shooting, creating way more granularity and also having a unified "good soldier" stat. If you're a veteran, even if you aren't specialized in either cc or shooting, you should automatically get more wily and better generally at both of them than a regular trooper is.
The existence of Primaris marines means that any buff normal marines to their stats get is stepping on their toes.
More attacks? Primaris. More AP? Primaris. More wounds? Primaris.
No, change what Primaris are - there's no reason they shouldn't have something else instead of bonus wounds. I think Primaris should go down to the same wounds as regular marines and get +1 M, +1 S instead. They are complete monsters, I think like they should act like it and go really fast and punch hard, even though they are supposedly civilized shooting units. That also makes them more interesting and keeps them from being just betterized marines.
GW Also won't fix Marines in a reasonable way. The most they'll actually do is a point decrease for power armour hordes. Does that mean we shouldn't discuss this?
We should discuss it a lot and play with rules that are better than what GW can make, and definitely never even think about whether GW's goal is for them to be overshadowed.
1: That's an issue with GW not putting enough room for granularity in the game.
2: Melee is already extremely hard to get into, assault is extremely weak.
Does shooting need more buffs??
3: That is true, but how would you do it? There are a lot of interesting mechanics to be explored with these stats I think.
For shooting, I'd compare the shooter's attack to the defender's. If one model's is higher, they get a bonus. See this way it kind of moderates the effect, because giving it a defensive shooting bonus means that cc and shooting elites both benefit from the rule and it raises all ships, at least in the balance between cc and shooting. The bonus for the shooter would be -1 ap. If the defender has more attacks, and they're in cover, they get a 5++.
When comparing attacks, you put three different stats into the shooting phase, instead of the current one stat. You get the attacker BS, the attacker A, and the defender A. That's a lot more granularity, so you don't have veteran guardsman with bolter being just the same as marine company company veteran with bolter. I also think this makes it much more reasonable to do +1 A globally on marines like you have said you like. I think it should be the AP value that gets the bonus for a lot of reasons involving all the other options being bad choices.
The thing is that it's already a useful stat in the assault phase, and a useful stat in the attacking shooting phase. I think the way to sort of moderate the effect, so that it doesn't really unbalance shooting vs. assault that much, is to use it in the phase that both kinds of units participate in, and that is their opponent's shooting phase.
4: No opinion here.
5: Agreed. It's why were here after all.
I think having attacks effecting shooting could be interesting. How would you balance that though? Obviously melee would need to be changed, more reliable to get into.
Yeah there are two aspects to balancing this with melee. One is that melee is already weak and hard to get into; that needs to be fixed independently of whether this happens or not. That's kind of a separate issue from elites getting good in all the phases not just cc. I actually don't think that it means changing melee/assaulting rules themselves, I think it that shooting needs to be changed so it's not just having enough guns + range makes cc units die.
The other is that thing where cc units with high attacks get a defensive bonus.
1: I agree here. Astartes shouldn't forget how to fight like their chapter just because they are driving a tank.
2: This could work, though we'd have to see how it interacts with the more durable astartes groups like Death Guard and Thousand Sons. Imagine trying to shift Rubrics or SOT in cover.
3: I'd be fine with this if there were a "if it moves at half speed or stays still" for rhino hulls. Dreads I'm fine with move & shoot no penalty though.
4: As much as I would love by murderblob of skyclaws to be throwing out 92 attacks on the charge, I'm going to have to 'no' this one. There are other ways to make marines better in combat. Because remember, there are CHAOS marines as well. Do you want to fight berserkers with 3 attacks base?
5: Terminators need something. I disagree on this being that something. Perhaps one or two of the following. Give them their old "roll 2d6 save" rule. True grit all the time (can fire rapid fire/assault weapons in CC as if they were pistols). Ignore hit penalties for hammers/fists on the charge.
6: Auras are dumb. If a unit cannot stand on its own without daddy to be around to babysit them, they should go back to the 10th company. Or be sacrificed to the Gods. Maybe if all the auras weren't the same damn thing I'd be more ok with it. A bike captain giving advance+shoot/charge to nearby bikes. Terminator captain FNP or 1/2 damage to minimum of 1 to nearby terminators. Jump captains giving +2" to advance/charge to nearby Jumpy dudes. Make them interesting. 7: Meh. Exploding dice only really work well if you throw buckets of dice. Take it from someone with a pure tempestas force. It rarely comes into play.
My thoughts on where improvement can happen:
I. Chapter tactics all suck. All of them. Even you smurfs and emo marines.
--Ultramarines are supposed to have nearly peerless tactical precision, not being cowards to leg it the moment a couple termigants get in their way. Give them some way to synergize. Shoot with at a thing with a tactical squad, get +1 to hit and/or wound when you fire at them with a devistator squad or assault squad. Replace Tac/Dev/Assault with Intercessor/Hellblaster/Reaver.
--Fists are bolter masters and fortification specialists. Any unit that only fires bolt weapons may fire their bolt weapons a second time at -1 to hit. Can take fortifications as dedicated transports, and the fortification gets BS 3+.
--Raven guard sneaky. Always get benefit of cover, and if they are actually in cover, reduces AP of incoming fire by 1. Nobody likes fighting against negative hit modifier armies.
--Salamanders like fire from what I hear. Any flame weapon rolls two dice and picks highest for # of shots, perhaps increase range of all flame weapons by 50% as well. If they kill a model with a Melta weapon, they may fire again (maybe limit this to only 1 extra shot/kill?).
--Iron Hands are hard to kill and are awesome with tech. All shooting attacks that target IH get -1 strength. Techmarines become elites and you get 1-5 per slot. All non-vehicle characters can repair.
--White Scars like to go fast. They once painted their armor red, but they went so fast it all peeled off. +2 movement to all bikes. Infantry without the Terminator keyword may disembark after a vehicle moves and act normally.
--BT like to sword things out and hate psykers. Re-roll charges and improve ap of Melee weapons by 1 on charge, anything can deny the witch but only rolls 1d6, characters roll 2d6.
--BA Like to fly and stuff. +1 to wound on charge is awesome. Anything with FLY charges an extra d3 inches, and can declare charges against anything in its max charge distance.
--SW actually have a decent CT. That 6" heroic intervention has caught quite a few people with their pants down in my area already.
II. Less awful stratagems. Way too much to list, plus I'm out of creative juice for now.
Xenomancers wrote: Really - these would all be great changes. As a whole this list addresses all the issues I have with the army even going as far as to give some more flexibility to positioning on the battle field.
The only thing that is missing is a rework of a few stratagems and psychic powers but that's not as big as an issue as the issues listed above.
Man...Shootin Puttin's first post is remarkably on point for a newb...I wonder who he really is...
I am just a dude who likes 40k and hates to see my my Black Templars so criminally underpowered. I usually stuck to a more casual local meta and never really thought about taking the plunge into competitive until I was convinced by a friend to give a local tournament a shot... I am by no means a novice gamer (Been around since 6th edition.) but wow can some of those soup lists really bring the pain. "Note to self, if you want to play melee marines your gonna have a bad time."
The Marine Stratagems IMO are "mostly" useless and as a Templar Player I cant rightly speak to the effectiveness of the psychic phase.
In a game the only stratagems I use regularly would be "Honor the Chapter." 3CP IMO is a little steep for what oftentimes can be an underwhelming round of attacks. "Only in death does duty end." 2CP eh I feel like thats actually ok. Sure I would love for my Smash Captain to get another round of combat against the knight that just stomped him to death and "Wisdom of the Ancients." Its pretty handy on a Mortis Dred so I dont need to baby sit a firebase with a captain that I typically want to get stuck into close combat ASAP.
As for any possible points adjustments, I dont even think GW has figured out the actual value of what a "point" is worth? They claim that the game is built using space marines as a base but lets be real here, clearly something is WAY outa wack. IMO the biggest issue is how expensive Marine Wargear is, why the are Melta Guns 4 points more than the genetically modified power armored super soldier wielding it? I "think" if nothing were to change rules wise a points drop across the board would go a long way to helping space marine effectiveness.
Personally, I think a huge bonus for Space Marines would be a change in transports. If the humble rhino and drop pod were to get a points drop AND allow Primaris units to take them it COULD do amazing things for the army. Getting your boys where they can do the maximum amount of damage is a HUGE boon to the effectiveness of a space marine army. My old 7th ed Gladius remembers those days fondly. Plus I may or may not have a dozen rhino chassis sitting around collecting dust.... I would do some questionable things to get a rhino with a transport capacity of 11-12 instead of 10 so you can take a full squad/ pair of combat squads AND their ever so important Captain/Lts.
"I’m going to plead with you, do not cross us. Because if you do, the survivors will write about what we do here for 10,000 years." - Mad Dog Mattis
After reading this entire thread I would have to say I love the idea of cutting the equipment cost. I think that would go a long way towards putting SM where they need to be. Looking at how 8th was setup, I think that this is more of a problem with the fact that the edition is more suited for horde armies and not factions that are geared toward a smaller count with elite units.
Some more BT love wouldn't hurt, but I'm not sure that is entirely on topic.
Xenomancers wrote: Really - these would all be great changes. As a whole this list addresses all the issues I have with the army even going as far as to give some more flexibility to positioning on the battle field.
The only thing that is missing is a rework of a few stratagems and psychic powers but that's not as big as an issue as the issues listed above.
Man...Shootin Puttin's first post is remarkably on point for a newb...I wonder who he really is...
I am just a dude who likes 40k and hates to see my my Black Templars so criminally underpowered. I usually stuck to a more casual local meta and never really thought about taking the plunge into competitive until I was convinced by a friend to give a local tournament a shot... I am by no means a novice gamer (Been around since 6th edition.) but wow can some of those soup lists really bring the pain. "Note to self, if you want to play melee marines your gonna have a bad time."
The Marine Stratagems IMO are "mostly" useless and as a Templar Player I cant rightly speak to the effectiveness of the psychic phase.
In a game the only stratagems I use regularly would be "Honor the Chapter." 3CP IMO is a little steep for what oftentimes can be an underwhelming round of attacks. "Only in death does duty end." 2CP eh I feel like thats actually ok. Sure I would love for my Smash Captain to get another round of combat against the knight that just stomped him to death and "Wisdom of the Ancients." Its pretty handy on a Mortis Dred so I dont need to baby sit a firebase with a captain that I typically want to get stuck into close combat ASAP.
As for any possible points adjustments, I dont even think GW has figured out the actual value of what a "point" is worth? They claim that the game is built using space marines as a base but lets be real here, clearly something is WAY outa wack. IMO the biggest issue is how expensive Marine Wargear is, why the are Melta Guns 4 points more than the genetically modified power armored super soldier wielding it? I "think" if nothing were to change rules wise a points drop across the board would go a long way to helping space marine effectiveness.
Personally, I think a huge bonus for Space Marines would be a change in transports. If the humble rhino and drop pod were to get a points drop AND allow Primaris units to take them it COULD do amazing things for the army. Getting your boys where they can do the maximum amount of damage is a HUGE boon to the effectiveness of a space marine army. My old 7th ed Gladius remembers those days fondly. Plus I may or may not have a dozen rhino chassis sitting around collecting dust.... I would do some questionable things to get a rhino with a transport capacity of 11-12 instead of 10 so you can take a full squad/ pair of combat squads AND their ever so important Captain/Lts.
First - I was calling you a newb to dakka. I saw this was your first overall post. It might be one of the best first posts ever. I like most of your changes.
I agree that wargear costs are a great place to make adjustments to the marine codex. There isn't a single weapon I can equip to a tactical marine that I feel I am paying a fair cost for. There isn't a single infantry model outside of a captain that I feel I am paying a fair cost for. When it comes to tanks - the stalker and the stormhawk are the only reasonably costed vehicals - maybe venerable dreads too but really - these are just "okay" options compared to the rest of the imperium.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Sorry, should've specified that I was talking about Index prices for Boyz, not the new 7 PPM Boyz. The 1 PPM difference actually lets me win if I manage to get the charge, hence why I roll my eyes at Ork players who gnash their teef about how their army is ruined now.
Even then, it shows that Boyz are having their asses canned by an army that people cry "is ruined now". It goes both ways.
That being said, I don't think Ork Boyz are in as bad of a spot (right now) compared to how tactical marines are.
But out of the changes in the OP, only 1 or 2 of them should be implemented.
Sorry, should've specified that I was talking about Index prices for Boyz, not the new 7 PPM Boyz. The 1 PPM difference actually lets me win if I manage to get the charge, hence why I roll my eyes at Ork players who gnash their teef about how their army is ruined now.
Even then, it shows that Boyz are having their asses canned by an army that people cry "is ruined now". It goes both ways.
That being said, I don't think Ork Boyz are in as bad of a spot (right now) compared to how tactical marines are.
But out of the changes in the OP, only 1 or 2 of them should be implemented.
They're not though, they're mutually obliterating a unit they should be weak to (high volume low S attacks) when they get charged.
While we're on the subject of Orks though, can I have my Chapter Tactic refunded? It's kinda getting sad at this point...
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Until my Men in Black get some much needed love I guess I will continue to play the game on hard mode. Sigismund would have wanted it that way anyways.
Loyalists pft. (10/10 remark though)
Can you imagine that Marines are actually not the poorest f'thers out there?
I honestly belive that baseline marines should not be the metric unit anymore for pricing. I think the Guardsmen would serve better for it and i suspect that for atleast the following units it was the guardsmen that was taken as a meassurment standart: Kabalists, firewarriors.
I still not quite understand why the price hike for boyz happened, i never really felt they were the problem.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
The price hike for Boyz happened because they're really good. They still are. I'm not certain they required a price hike, but with all the added stuff they can do now they're certainly still going to be playable at 7 PPM.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
"You're trying to make them as durable as Custodes, which partly steps on their toes. "
Anything that wants to live needs 3W, not 2W. Custodes should be T6 W5, so they are actually better than fricking grotesques. Terminators need 3 wounds imo.
Honestly I feel like the Custodes are what marines should be. Let's be fair, did we really even need a custodes army? Everything they do on the table, is basically the fluff description of what marines do in the 41st millennium.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The price hike for Boyz happened because they're really good. They still are. I'm not certain they required a price hike, but with all the added stuff they can do now they're certainly still going to be playable at 7 PPM.
So far the price hasn't made me consider not running them. I don't really think it was all that big a deal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/06 04:45:05
20000+ points
2500
1500
400 
) and any changes to them need to scale appropriately. SO my new proposed ruling for bolt guns would simply be a simple Space Marine specific special rule.
are Melta Guns 4 points more than the genetically modified power armored super soldier wielding it? I "think" if nothing were to change rules wise a points drop across the board would go a long way to helping space marine effectiveness.
