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Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






I personally think that plasma should cause only 1mw also. However I think you should not be able to fire it again for the rest of the battle also if you survive.

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Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland

Bharring wrote:
But at what point does it impact whether "the other guy" can play his army the way he *it* should?

So Marines should beat Guardsmen in a firefight. 1-to-1 definitely. What Guard does well is bringing a bucket of doods to the firefight, and drowning their enemy in numbers. So if Marines go up against a bucket of Guardsmen, do Marines remove a bucket of Guardsmen, or do Guardsmen drown Marines in bodies?

Marines are super elite. Aspect Warriors are super elite. If you want Marines to be elite, the thought is that lowly things like Aspect Warriors shouldn't be able to stand up to them. So to make marines feel the way they should, Aspect Warriors need to be less elite than Marines. To make Aspect Warriors feel the way they should, Marines need to not be more elite than Aspect Warriors. So how do you make both play how they should?

Trying to make multiple armies play how they "should" is difficult. Marines are Super Soldiers. But they're going up against Super-numerous armies, Super-durable armies, Super-spaceelfninjasamurai armies, and Super-soccer hooligan armies. If you lose the context of the other side's Super, you either don't feel like Super Soldiers or you destroy the other side's concept.


Because there isn't a raw "elite-ness" statistic that one can have over the other. I mean, sure, you'll have those people who'd argue that Marines are better than everyone else at everything (Black Library syndrome of them being faster than Eldar and whatever), but those people are dumb. There are plenty of changes that can be made to fix their current state that don't invalidate other parts of the game. In the same sense that Hormagaunts, Termangants, Cultists, Guardsmen and Ork Boyz are all very similar concepts fundamentally (~5ppm and you have lots) but also all play differently. Aspect Warriors are a bad example because while Marines and Aspect Warriors are both types of elite unit, they have very different ideal qualities.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/15 22:42:13


Sieg Zeon!

Selling TGG2! 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I think a lot of issues could be fixed with better stratagems and chapter tactics. Maybe even giving them the ability to use their own Order system like AM. The AM by themselves aren't all that impressive but their army synergizes so well with stratagems and internal buffs they become a major PITA. Further, the SM need some new gear to deal with hordes. I understand you can take a AM Detachment to fill the holes but some people prefer mono armies. Simple solution, Whirlys can shoot twice if they didnt move, basically a Wyvern.

Oh, and a better Librarius.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/16 01:32:27


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I feel that most complaints against marines are pretty unfounded. A lot of people here just seem to be consistently whining. That being said there are some legitimate complaints, and one that I've been thinking over is the role of space marines in the general meta. One of the consistent complaints about marines in this thread is that marines aren't elite, and to fix this people have kept proposing straight numerical upgrades. This seems to be the wrong way to move in an already crowded design space, so instead I'd propose a horizontal change. Marines are generally sent in as strike forces. They must be surgical to deal with larger forces piece by piece, and they must be generalists as they don't have the numbers to support true specialists.

So lets focus on making them that - Surgical Generalists - dissect enemy forces and match their weakness with your strength.

Focusing on Surgical:
Surgical really comes down to having the maximum effective firepower where they have the minimum. Which is essentially dictated by positioning and range.
I don't really like the idea of increasing range because IMO it leads to more boring gameplay. So lets focus on positioning, both bettering your own and worsening the enemies.

Positioning Changes:
Drop Pods:
Units disembarking from drop pods ignore the 9" restriction (but must be fully within 3" of the Drop pod instead of partially). With the advent of orks getting excellent deepstrike charges, I'd say this is hardly unbalanced especially since its capped at a 10 man capacity (as opposed to 30 ork boys).

Teleport homers:
Scouts, scout bikes, and land speeder storms can activate a teleport homer strategem for 1 cp. If they do so at the end of the movement phase any unit with the TERMINATOR key word may immediately be removed from the board and placed entirely within 6" of the scout unit and outside of 9" of any enemy units.

Land Raiders:
Assault ramp, if the land raider has made a charge this turn and has units embarked then at the end of the charge phase the units may disembark and MUST be within both 3" of the landraider and 1" of one of the landraiders chosen charge targets. For purposes of fighting the embarked unit counts as having declared a charge against all units that the landraider declared a charge against but may not be overwatched. Possibly give the LR a bonus to hit on charge.

Dreadnoughts:
Get rid of the difference between Dreadnought drop pods and standard drop pods. Increase movement to 8" for all dreadnoughts.

Marines: Not much I'd change for them in terms of positioning, MAYBE give them 7" movement.

Teleport Jammers:
Either a one use equipment or possibly a strategem for land speeders. Extends the deep strike denial range from 9" to 12"

Predators: Turret weapons ignore the heavy weapon movement penalty
Vindicators: Ignore the HW movement penalty

Focusing on Generalists Changes:
Marines: +1 attack. Shoot the choppy. Chop the shooty. Possibly a point decrease for special weapons.

Rhinos: Please give fireports back, if not let us swap the SB for flamers (advance and fire + overwatch protection)

Razors: Don't use em, cant speak about their effectiveness or how to change them.

Whirlwinds: Go back to previous editions and give it both profiles and choose when it fires.

Synopsis:
Basically, marines should have trouble taking blow-for-blow style engagements but should excel in dissecting parts of the opposing force and cracking flanks. Most of the positioning changes help them concentrate force to hit the enemy hard. While the generalists changes help marines when they get stuck into that flank. Still needs to be thought out more obviously, but I feel these changes would end up giving marines a proper fighting style.
   
Made in it
Waaagh! Ork Warboss




Italy

Fireports to all vehicles that can carry models and aren't open topped is a good suggestion that would improve the quality of 40k IMHO. Not only rhinos but all tanks with a transport capacity. Of course just 1-2 models should be able to fire from the inside.

Rhino's price is fair, the drop pods are utterly overcosted. They should realistically be priced at 50-60 points at most since the best combos they had in 7th (flamers and meltas) aren't effective in 8th. Drop pods should be the cheapest SM transport, and able to carry dreads: it's basically the only real change that I'd like to see with SM other than adding more punch in melee.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/11/16 11:51:55


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





"Land Raiders:
Assault ramp, if the land raider has made a charge this turn and has units embarked then at the end of the charge phase the units may disembark and MUST be within both 3" of the landraider and 1" of one of the landraiders chosen charge targets. For purposes of fighting the embarked unit counts as having declared a charge against all units that the landraider declared a charge against but may not be overwatched. Possibly give the LR a bonus to hit on charge. "
That's the first Assault Ramp suggestion this edition that I *didn't* hate.

Fireports:
Rhinos getting 2 Fireports back would be excellent. Not all transport tanks should have fireports (Serpents certainly shouldn't have them), but Rhinos certainly should.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




"I feel that most complaints against marines are pretty unfounded."

Tournament data suggests otherwise. Based off the CA leaks, GW disagrees as well. I guess they want to see some units other than scouts and Capt Smash, too.
   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider




Vilehydra wrote:
to fix this people have kept proposing straight numerical upgrades. This seems to be the wrong way to move in an already crowded design space, so instead I'd propose a horizontal change. Marines are generally sent in as strike forces. They must be surgical to deal with larger forces piece by piece, and they must be generalists as they don't have the numbers to support true specialists.
yes very happy with that.
.

Positioning Changes:

Teleport homers:
Scouts, scout bikes, and land speeder storms can activate a teleport homer strategem for 1 cp. If they do so at the end of the movement phase any unit with the TERMINATOR key word may immediately be removed from the board and placed entirely within 6" of the scout unit and outside of 9" of any enemy units.


You could say all the battle line squads can use the stratagem. Tactical sergeants have had access to them before, it seems like that makes it less niches. Scouts certainly aren’t underused atm, and they’re still the better platform since they infiltrate.

Land Raiders:
Assault ramp, if the land raider has made a charge this turn and has units embarked then at the end of the charge phase the units may disembark and MUST be within both 3" of the landraider and 1" of one of the landraiders chosen charge targets. For purposes of fighting the embarked unit counts as having declared a charge against all units that the landraider declared a charge against but may not be overwatched. Possibly give the LR a bonus to hit on charge.

Yeah great, and it gives land raiders a use for power armored models. It’d be nice for this to be generalized to open topped units, but that seems very out of control.

Marines: Not much I'd change for them in terms of positioning, MAYBE give them 7" movement.


I’d like to shoot rapid fire and pistol weapons after a run move, at -1 to hit or not. Preserving the bolt carbine doesn’t seem very important. I’d especially don’t want them to have a higher top speed than eldar or hormagaunts.


Predators: Turret weapons ignore the heavy weapon movement penalty
Vindicators: Ignore the HW movement penalty


The potential has always been there.

   
 
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