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Made in us
Horrific Hive Tyrant




Tampa, FL

 TwilightSparkles wrote:
I think a key point is that for a lot of hobbyists, first contact with a games system is a forum or Facebook group. A lot of these now suppress any “negativity” but the problem is that this extends into inexcusable defence of the owning company.

I’ve seen on one Facebook group for a newly released licences game where admin defend a certain company that has not , in some apparent cases, sent preorders paid in April whilst releasing the product at retail. Or where mispacks are hilariously out of control - people getting 3 identical figures when it should be 3 quite different figures. Or the fact the company has so many emails coming in that the mailbox has been full for weeks.

All it does is make the admins look like rabid fanboys.

Another issue is unfair standards. Dakka along with other places do not, I believe, allow hosted image leaks or discussion of exact points values. Yet Natfka and reddit are awash with 40k chapter approved scans to the point where you could print all the points changes off.



I think that's more based on size. I was in a few FB groups that did the same, because they were afraid of being reported for showing images. I've also seen plenty that seem to think GW's points (the actual points) are copyrighttable/IP and don't allow individual points only the totals (Dakka might do this as well I don't remember) when even if GW wanted to go after it, they wouldn't have any leg to stand on as long as it wasn't a scan.

What I dislike the most though are the people who justify it with what is basically "Because we said so and you agreed to our rules" without any actual reason beyond that. It just smacks of knowing that you're wrong, but not caring and feeling insulted that you're asked to justify your position with a rational reason. One FB group I'm in had this recently, the admin was trying to play the old "We said you can't, you can follow the rules or leave" and eventually gave an actual reason (which I didn't quite agree with, but at least it was a legit reason beyond "Because"). People seem reluctant to actually give valid reasons if they feel they don't have to.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 TwilightSparkles wrote:

All it does is make the admins look like rabid fanboys.


To be fair, everyone's talking about how engaged and aware the online audience is. Who do yall think is going to be the kind of person who actually administrates such a community?

I was a bit of an outlier picking a place up rather than letting it die. It was near impossible to find other people who were not absolute fanatics about one thing or another and were still willing to even moderate.

It's rather rare for places to be reasonably well moderated without some serious psychosis on the mod team. Social media made it so every loony could create their own community and leaves the common newbie at the mercy of whoever accidentally wound up at the top of the SEO rankings. Generally that will be the largest community, which after a few years is likely to settle out into a relatively stable one(or one with a mass migration of users on the regular because of nearly unimaginable influxes of new users).

If you meet an admin who isn't a frother, thank them once in a while. It's not a massively thankful job to chide people into being somewhere near civil.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/10 20:24:16


 
   
Made in gb
Freelance Soldier




Nottingham, England

I’m in non hobby Facebook groups for some stuff people are seriously passionate about and spend way more money on, admins manage fine without being little dictators. At most some groups ban a couple of topics which always result in chaos, so for example an Orlando group bans discussion of taking kids out of school for holiday and animal welfare at Sea World. Everything else is fine.

I always think Privateer Press is a good example of self destroying an online community because they couldn’t handle the negativity.

Inordinately complex rules for a group just scream that someone is unemployed and a jobsworth IMO.
   
Made in gb
Princeps of the Emperor's Titan!






There's negativity, and there's constructive criticism though.

Which would you prefer to read?

Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives?Why not join us?

 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



UK

If people want to read endless whining screeds then there are specialist forums that already cater to them.

One thing some people can't seem to handle is facebook groups having standards of behavior.

I've seen Hendybadger get attacked for having 'no racist, homophobic or sexist comments' in his skirmish group rules by someone saying he was being 'political'. Again there are specific groups and forums set up already where you can combine the hobby with racism, sexism and white supremacy.

Someone's facebook page was recently taken down because they refused to let someone put white supremacist symbol minis on their facebook group and the person complained to facebook about how they were being oppressed.

Facebook groups have rules and to be brutally honest, the people who can't abide by those rules don't seem to be a big loss. Some things being ok on dakka or 4chan doesn't mean that the rest of the hobby shares those standards, though I know that can be a shock to some people.

The OP was maybe attacking the AT2018 group for not hosting content on 3d printed stuff (is he clear at any point about what he's upset about?), but it's clearly set up as a semi-official group and some of the admins are gw adjacent, ie ex staff, with the writers in the group as well, so it's not a huge surprise that they aren't advertising stuff that is piggybacking on or copying GWs IP.

If people want to advertise IP rip offs why not just do it here? There's a current mod approved thread here for Overwatch rip offs where talking about IP gets your post deleted.

On the Spikey Bits forum a sculptor posting about how as a small business recasting was killing him financially got absolutely shredded by people saying that asking for a price where he made a small profit on his work, rather than actively losing money with everything he produced, meant he deserved to get ripped off.

For people upset about the standards of facebook groups, they have alternatives where there aren't standards to use instead.

Standards of behavior and simple group rules, that are in the most part pretty basic, aren't a shadowy elite gatekeeping the hobby, but something common in the wider community.

Check out my youtube channel at www.youtube.com/channel/UCc8CECcBOeCO-srhlUwf_lQ 
   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

auticus wrote:
I think its more that people don't want to debate or have discussions that challenges their viewpoints and ideologies and that if you debate or challenge then that is toxic and negative. People like discussions. Just so long as they aren't challenging their ideologies or viewpoints and the discussion is on the path of mutual agreement.


Is it the chicken, or is it the egg?

I won't argue that some Facebook groups and other Forums are becoming rather gunshy about disagreement, but the forums I've called home for almost my entire adult life have remained quite tolerant of opposing views. However, the manner in which people communicate those views often struggle to stay within community guidelines.

Said forums allow for political debates constantly, and while the overall political lean would certainly be to the left, there are a number of right leaning/conservative members. Those who stay around are the ones that find themselves able to communicate their viewpoints eloquently and consistently. Nobody expects 100% agreement on every topic all the time. The snag becomes that most of us have been at this for a decade or two at this point, many of the arguments have been had, re-had, hashed out, and then trotted out again every year or two for good measure. We've been there, and done that, so unless someone is bringing something new to the table, it can get a little exasperating to be literally going over the same points from a year or two ago, even if it's 'new' to someone else in the discussion.

The other side of it is the general acceptance of weaponized communications. We've seen allegations (with what I find to be compelling evidence) of state actor's using troll farms to manipulate political discussions, company's using 'brand ambassador's' and 'influencers' (ugh), and the ever present trolls/donkey caves who are quite eager to continue a crusade against an individual or company for slights as often perceived as they might be real.

I think what I'm trying to get at is that the conversation isn't just about how moderators handle these individuals and topics, but also how the conversation happens, and the individuals that make it up as well. Sometimes having a blanket rule to fall back on can be abused, but sometimes you've just had enough of some fethwits bullgak and it's easier to say that they have failed to uphold the standards set by the community, and then show them the door.

I actually agree that closed echo chambers are often a bad thing, however I have also seen many 'new challengers' wade in to decry said echo chamber... and fail to do anything but fling mud and declare everyone who doesn't immediately appreciate their genius to be sheeple. The ideas and arguments presented should stand on their own, but it's far too common that someone clearly comes in with a chip on their shoulder, or to just troll and stir up muck until they're told off. Some stick around, manage to express their thoughts and concerns eloquently, change minds and perhaps even have their mind changed. I wonder if this doesn't tie to how many of us who have spent a decade or two or more on the internet are just aging? The mind is more open to change and new concepts/ideas in younger years, but that doesn't come as easily later on. I think I was more flexible in some ways in my 20's, less so in my late 30's, and perhaps that comes across digitally as well.

I strive to remain an open minded sort, but when the same gak disturbers start banging on about the same gak they've been outraged over for weeks or months or longer, it's hard to take them seriously or feel particularly put off when they're given a time out. And that's regarding more serious topics like political issues. With a hobby/game, I find it even easier to accept 'the moderator's/admin's house, their rules', because almost nobody is Jean Valjean on the barricades standing against dastardly evil doers, and even if they have a point, many will run it into the ground, losing what little support they might have had.

One of the biggest disparities I see on this is threading of comments. I hate Facebook groups, everything as a nested jumble, which often wanders off topic by the second comment. While a forum, I find Reddit's non-linear approach similarly annoying. Give me forums like Dakka where a topic follows a more measured and chronological pace, with major tangents generally shut down by the moderators over that mess any day.

So, to loop back around, I don't entirely agree that it's a matter of people needing to be in their own little bubbles. That alone is a heavily weighted statement often coming up in political discussions between the US left and right wings, with the latter often condemning the former as 'snowflakes', but in my experience those same groups are no less demanding of their own 'safe spaces' and lack of disagreeing viewpoints (so, same alleged outcome, but with a healthy dose of hypocrisy added on top).
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Macon, GA

I'll be honest, I've dipped my toe in a few of the bigger, general interest 40k FB groups, and they're pretty unpleasant. It's a lot of gakposting and just really nasty behavior.

My Painted Armies
: Co. B, 37th Praetorian IG: 21,000pts
KOW Ogres: 4500 points
Loyalist Emperor's Children: 2500 points 
   
Made in us
Soul Token




West Yorkshire, England

Wayniac wrote:
I think that's more based on size. I was in a few FB groups that did the same, because they were afraid of being reported for showing images. I've also seen plenty that seem to think GW's points (the actual points) are copyrighttable/IP and don't allow individual points only the totals (Dakka might do this as well I don't remember) when even if GW wanted to go after it, they wouldn't have any leg to stand on as long as it wasn't a scan.

What I dislike the most though are the people who justify it with what is basically "Because we said so and you agreed to our rules" without any actual reason beyond that. It just smacks of knowing that you're wrong, but not caring and feeling insulted that you're asked to justify your position with a rational reason. One FB group I'm in had this recently, the admin was trying to play the old "We said you can't, you can follow the rules or leave" and eventually gave an actual reason (which I didn't quite agree with, but at least it was a legit reason beyond "Because"). People seem reluctant to actually give valid reasons if they feel they don't have to.


I think it's more often that you don't want to give an offender a reason which they will endlessly argue about ("it was just banter, sheesh, why is everyone so thin-skinned round here?"). And sometimes you'll have members who are being repeatedly toxic and abrasive while cynically staying juuuuuust within the letter of the law, and they're often more damaging than a random drive-by rager who flames out and gets banned.

"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich." 
   
Made in gb
Wicked Warp Spider





 Polonius wrote:
I'll be honest, I've dipped my toe in a few of the bigger, general interest 40k FB groups, and they're pretty unpleasant. It's a lot of gakposting and just really nasty behavior.


that does seem to be an issue the wider the group is, the more faction focussed FB groups I belong to do seem generally more civil

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
 
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