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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Don't forget Nail Bars!

Can't move in my town for Nail Bars!

Harry Hill's TV Burp intensifies!

 Overread wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Out of curiosity, if not now, then does anyone know when 40k peaked in terms of number of active players? I'm not sure how you'd get that data though.

Thing is it varies region and country by country. GW is far more global than it ever was and their profits and investments at the present suggest that, at least at the global scale, their market has never been bigger. Heck even in the UK they must be doing very well to have held onto their highstreet positions. The UK highstreet is not a nice place to shops any more - many hobby/craft and other stores have outright closed up whilst what has remained is often clothing, mobile phones and food - and even clothing outside of tourist areas or highly affluent areas, is a bit rocky and prone to change hands.

You forgot the betting shops swooping in to prey on the vulnerable, and charity shops. Those seem to be on the increase.

That's very true - charity shops which don't pay most of the rates, likely pay little or no rent, often don't pay for stock (or if they do its very little) and have volunteer staff. Betting I've seen some go, but yeah they are on the rise as well and are pretty cheap to run - a few TV's and such then its mostly just processing bets where your customers throw money at you. I've even seen a few pawnshops on the rise here and there.

But your good old corner shop or hobby store or such are basically nearly all gone in many regions - those I see hanging on tend to be owned by older people who bought the shop years ago so at least don't have rent, but the business rates, taxes and overheads are still crippling; esp with so many now buying online where the prices are nearly always cheaper and the range far greater. Heck even a lot of the highstreet names only remain because they've an online store backing them up - the days when a local shop could support itself on local trade are long gone it would seem .

Agreed. I see an increase in charity shops, betting shops, and pawn shops as a sign of hard times though. It isn't a healthy sign for a high street.

About the only local shops that survive well are those where people still want to see the physical goods before buying, mainly grocers, bakers etc.

IMHO the only issue with 40ks popularity is it basically proved to GW they could do the bare minimum and a lot of PR and people would take the bait. They really haven't done much to improve the quality of the game at all, just a lot of posturing and acting like they are.

At least when they were declining there was hope of them really pulling their heads out of their assess. Instead we got them being a bit more talkative while steering the games in the same old direction, and they were rewarded for it with record profit so they have zero reason to actually improve as their fans showed them it's not a major concern.

GW is still the same people working in many departments, however they have changed a lot of things. For the first time in probably a stupidly long period of time the whole of 40K has an up to date current edition Codex. The only force that hasn't got one is Sisters of Battle - every other faction in the game is up to date. And this is on top of Index releases that were done on day 1 of the new edition launch.

AoS is in a worse place, but a big part of that is legacy issues they had to deal with as a result of its launch and big shifts in its focus and management over that period of time including a new CEO coming into power. However still there's a general hope and expectation that all factions will get a 2.0 compatible Battletome.


These are big real changes to GW's practice. In the past it wasn't when it was IF your army would see a Codex/Battletome and that IF could be months or years away. Plus there were several armies that skipped whole editions - heck armies like Sisters of Battle and Dark Eldar skipped more than one edition of updates.


GW might still have iffy balance elements, but FAQs and Errata are FAR faster in their release. Heck I recall GW released a load of FAQ/Errata documents in the past almost in the last month before the edition ended and they released a new edition of the rules.




So yes some of their same rules problems and balance are still there and there is room to improve; but they've already made some massive changes thus far. In fact I'd say the fact that GW took those steps and got a massive profit reward is more incentive for them to continue to improve. They changed things, listened to customers and reacted to feedback* and were rewarded with record sales. To me that suggests that if they want to continue to maintain and improve on that then its a direct sign that improving balance, improving communication and feedback are going to result in improved results - clearly what any company wants.


*not all feedback, no company will ever please all customers at the same time

Wayniac wrote:
IMHO the only issue with 40ks popularity is it basically proved to GW they could do the bare minimum and a lot of PR and people would take the bait. They really haven't done much to improve the quality of the game at all, just a lot of posturing and acting like they are.

At least when they were declining there was hope of them really pulling their heads out of their assess. Instead we got them being a bit more talkative while steering the games in the same old direction, and they were rewarded for it with record profit so they have zero reason to actually improve as their fans showed them it's not a major concern.

/shrug

The game, even the inferior game it was in 7th, is still far and away a superior game to most of the junk out there. If Infinity, Warmachine, X-Wing & co. can make money with their utter garbage, GW can make money with a medium-to-high quality game.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
IMHO the only issue with 40ks popularity is it basically proved to GW they could do the bare minimum and a lot of PR and people would take the bait. They really haven't done much to improve the quality of the game at all, just a lot of posturing and acting like they are.

At least when they were declining there was hope of them really pulling their heads out of their assess. Instead we got them being a bit more talkative while steering the games in the same old direction, and they were rewarded for it with record profit so they have zero reason to actually improve as their fans showed them it's not a major concern.

/shrug

The game, even the inferior game it was in 7th, is still far and away a superior game to most of the junk out there. If Infinity, Warmachine, X-Wing & co. can make money with their utter garbage, GW can make money with a medium-to-high quality game.

Dude, seriously...

I like 8th, but how can you cite the 3 most iconic games that objectively have better written rules than 40k? It's like you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
IMHO the only issue with 40ks popularity is it basically proved to GW they could do the bare minimum and a lot of PR and people would take the bait. They really haven't done much to improve the quality of the game at all, just a lot of posturing and acting like they are.

At least when they were declining there was hope of them really pulling their heads out of their assess. Instead we got them being a bit more talkative while steering the games in the same old direction, and they were rewarded for it with record profit so they have zero reason to actually improve as their fans showed them it's not a major concern.

/shrug

The game, even the inferior game it was in 7th, is still far and away a superior game to most of the junk out there. If Infinity, Warmachine, X-Wing & co. can make money with their utter garbage, GW can make money with a medium-to-high quality game.

Dude, seriously...

I like 8th, but how can you cite the 3 most iconic games that objectively have better written rules than 40k? It's like you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

I played a test game of X-Wing last year and assuming there have been to major rule changes, it was just fun because it was new and different. But that's just my opinion.

Eh, tight rules don't necessarily make for a better game. I mean, they don't hurt, but it's not a slam-dunk.

40k does well because it's 40k - a uniquely weird mish-mash of just about every sci-fi trope ever, developed and nutured over what, 30 or so years by a bunch of Nerds.

It's scope is vast. It's potential stories limitless. There's less chance of people screaming on about canon, because it's all totally pants-on-head-whilst-marrying-a-yard-brush crazy, stupid, and daft.

It also developed across those years with a firm DIY mentality. Now that's not justification for shonky rules - just that for some of us Old Grognards, that's just been part-and-parcel of it since forever, so we're less bothered by it.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
IMHO the only issue with 40ks popularity is it basically proved to GW they could do the bare minimum and a lot of PR and people would take the bait. They really haven't done much to improve the quality of the game at all, just a lot of posturing and acting like they are.

At least when they were declining there was hope of them really pulling their heads out of their assess. Instead we got them being a bit more talkative while steering the games in the same old direction, and they were rewarded for it with record profit so they have zero reason to actually improve as their fans showed them it's not a major concern.

/shrug

The game, even the inferior game it was in 7th, is still far and away a superior game to most of the junk out there. If Infinity, Warmachine, X-Wing & co. can make money with their utter garbage, GW can make money with a medium-to-high quality game.

Dude, seriously...

I like 8th, but how can you cite the 3 most iconic games that objectively have better written rules than 40k? It's like you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

Ironically, I completely agree.
I found these games to be boring at best and no matter how much I tried, I just couldn't get into them.
Mantic I had more success with and actually enjoy it.

Now there's a high chance that it's because GW as a whole has been part of my life for around 20+ years now and im too stubborn to change, but its mainly the models for me.
None of those companies make anything that really appeals to me.
Again, mantic steps in and I like quite a few of them, but they don't come close to GW in terms of a visual aspect.

 The Warp Forge wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:

The OP has a long and varied history of low grade trolling. The old hotness was something like 'How do I beat X?' and then responding with 'no, I don't want to do that,' at all suggestions, "Why do people say X is overpowered? I use them and they never do anything." *describes slowly walking something with powerful deep strike options across the table.* as well as being hung up on 40K getting 'Sigmar'd' back when AoS was new and awful.

Ah, those were the days! Back when I was a boy, I remember them well. Wasn't there a few threads where other people in his club were telling him off for a variety of reasons too?

Back to the topic, 40k is at its height. In my area my FLGS local championship tickets sell out within the first two hours of announcement. Max tables. Every time. My own personal interest has waned and now I leave the game, my Night Lords are just so frustrating to play with, even in casual games it's not worth the investment anymore. I look to greener pastures such as Batman, EDEN, Mythos, and more skirmish games and they suit my needs now. They also allow me to invest in other hobbies too, now I'm not shovelling money into a faction GW have clear no interest in.

To make a long story short, the rules got an overwhelming welcome overhaul but the same external balance issues arise from past editions, but everyone turns the other cheek because GW became more 'customer-friendly' with social media, ergo the white-knighting, echo-chamber on the Warhammer pages/groups is rife (despite GW asking for fair critique).

Pretty much sums it up in my opinion.

I'm another regular at TFW's flgs, and I can vouch we're booming at the minute. The championship sells out each event on the day the tickets go up (the first taking ~7 hours, the most recent taking 90 minutes including 3 reserves).

I have to admit, there's a few large-scale clubs up near us, and most of them run event-to-event so are mostly dominated by competative lists, which one would expect really.

So, no, 40k isnt dying, certainly not in the North-East of the UK, but in the city im at for uni there's pretty much nothing. There's the official GW store, which is nice enough, but I only know the name of one independant games store, and no more. So, yeah, totally dependant on location I guess.



The only thing I can say in regard to 40k as a whole is that currently GW is trying to facelift their entire line, which of course means they've front-loaded the Imperium like a cruise liner, because Poster Boys (tm), and with Vigilus Ablaze have finally updated the Token Bad Guys (tm), but everthing else is just getting shafted in the process.

I'm a Necron player, and as of the first (the 3rd Book if I recall) of 8th Ed (1st Xeno book of 8th, again IIRC), we came off real bad. CA has put us in a playable place, and we have a decent chance if things go our way.

But, as a book that suffers from early-launch syndrome, we're intrinsically underpowered against the rest of the books in rotation as a single book. Astartes of both flavours also suffer from this, but both of these have allies (Soup, although not intnetionally) to help out.

Necrons dont. We got shafted, badly. T'au also dont, and neither do Orks, but both of these books are regarded as internally better balanced than Necrons. Either way, they still struggle to complete against Imperial or Aeldari Soup, so it becomes clear that Soup is the problem.

I will admit im a titchy bit biased because both my armies came off badly (unless I spent a gakload on the new FoTM), but the power gap created by Soup armies is just too large to be bridged.

That said, unnecessary/pointless buffs are slightly annoying as well, but thats another discussion altogether.

Jackal90 wrote:

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

And if you express your opinion in a public place, there is a risk that you may be called on it--describing your opinion as your opinion is not a get-out clause for criticism. I don't get why so many people seem to have a problem with this rudimentary concept.

 Elemental wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

And if you express your opinion in a public place, there is a risk that you may be called on it--describing your opinion as your opinion is not a get-out clause for criticism. I don't get why so many people seem to have a problem with this rudimentary concept.

I get it.
But your attitude was that said person's opinion was wrong because it doesn't match yours.
And I agree, all opinions in a public place are open to discussion.
But there's a difference between not agreeing with an opinion and just stating it's wrong because yours is right.

Jackal90 wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

And if you express your opinion in a public place, there is a risk that you may be called on it--describing your opinion as your opinion is not a get-out clause for criticism. I don't get why so many people seem to have a problem with this rudimentary concept.

I get it.
But your attitude was that said person's opinion was wrong because it doesn't match yours.
And I agree, all opinions in a public place are open to discussion.
But there's a difference between not agreeing with an opinion and just stating it's wrong because yours is right.

I mean, to be fair I don't see how anyone could ever think GW writes a better game than games with actual well-written rules. opinion or not. It's subjective fact that those games have better rules, now whether or not the individual person feels they are enjoyable is 100% opinion.

Wayniac wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

And if you express your opinion in a public place, there is a risk that you may be called on it--describing your opinion as your opinion is not a get-out clause for criticism. I don't get why so many people seem to have a problem with this rudimentary concept.

I get it.
But your attitude was that said person's opinion was wrong because it doesn't match yours.
And I agree, all opinions in a public place are open to discussion.
But there's a difference between not agreeing with an opinion and just stating it's wrong because yours is right.

I mean, to be fair I don't see how anyone could ever think GW writes a better game than games with actual well-written rules. opinion or not. It's subjective fact that those games have better rules, now whether or not the individual person feels they are enjoyable is 100% opinion.

Where in the original quotes did rules come into it?
It was purely about enjoyment.
Its a game, it's sole purpose is to be enjoyable.

Rules wise I agree, GW is both wonky and inconsistent with 90% of their rules.

As a whole though, I just find games workshops products to be alot more submersive.
As I said, this may or may not largely be due to me growing up playing GW games.

I've tried just about every other miniature based game I can find and none really cut it for me.
Either the models are boring or just plain bad, or the setting and background seems forced or lacking.

Wayniac wrote:
It's subjective

Wayniac wrote:
fact

Pick one dawg.

Personally, though I haven't played Infinity, I loathe the gameplay of both X-wing and WMH, because I consider both to be so bogged down in rules designed for bleeding-edge competitive play that they completely lose the feel of the game. WMH doesn't play like a simulation of fantasy characters on a battlefield fighting, it plays like a game with tokens, where you might as well just be playing with round discs of cardboard with a little picture of the monster printed on them. That's my opinion - or, if you prefer, my "subjective fact" when it comes to that game system. Xwing does it a little better, but for a flight simulating game I'd so much rather pull out a beardier WW2 dogfighting game system with a little less concern about forcing its players to buy the boxes that have the best cardboard tokens and a little more sense of joyful simulation in the rules.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jackal90 wrote:


As a whole though, I just find games workshops products to be alot more submersive.

I agree last time I played I nearly drowned!

Jackal90 wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:


/shrug

The game, even the inferior game it was in 7th, is still far and away a superior game to most of the junk out there. If Infinity, Warmachine, X-Wing & co. can make money with their utter garbage, GW can make money with a medium-to-high quality game.

Dude, seriously...

I like 8th, but how can you cite the 3 most iconic games that objectively have better written rules than 40k? It's like you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

Its almost as if they are stating their opinion.....

I think in the case here at least 2 of the 3 (if not all 3) are generally regarded as very good games. And comparing them to 40k with even a few standard meterics (accessibility, clarity of rules, balance, focus, ease of play, etc.) those games better crafted than 40k. You, and I, might not like them but that doesn't make them inferior games to 40k. I might like The Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift more than Lawrence of Arabia, that definitely doesn't make it a superior movie in any respect. Just that I like a few bad movies. It is okay to like bad things like that. Just because you and/or I like these things doesn't make them good/superior. Just like not liking something makes it bad/inferior.

To be clear, I think Warhammer 40k is a very mediocre miniatures war game. Not the worst I have ever played (I won't bother playing a bad game more than once or twice), but it is probably the worst miniatures game I played with any consistency*. At the same time, I still like it well enough to play more than many of the other ones I have (well Kill Team anyways). I tried Infinity and X-wing both. I didn't really like them either. I have watched a couple of batreps of Warmachine as my gaming group transitioned from another miniatures game t to it. It didn't grab me, and I parted ways with that group. However, I certainly won't say that they are inferior to 40k. I still like 40k over any of them quite bit more even if I am mostly a skirmish miniatures game player and 40k is a bigger scope.

It is why I am so glad Kill Team exists as it is. Even Kill team has a lot of rough spots in the rules compared to the tightness of Infinity. More so, if you consider how simple Kill Team rules are compared to Infinity's complexity. However, the simplicity of Kill Team is what I like about it and the complexity of Infinity is what I didn't like about it.

I wouldn't say 40k is dying so much as it is hard for FLGS's to stay in business. It is a very NICHE hobby and not every place is going to have the customers to support it. That's why folks if you have a FLGS you like to go to, try and buy through them, support local businesses.

It's not dying. Is it getting bigger.

Part of that is the mass of warhammer video games that GW is pushing out the door. They are mass leasing their IP, which is helping to get it out the door and get exposure.

This gets people interested in the IP, which then get's people into the mini game.

So in answer to OP's question:

In your area? Maybe. Globally. No, it wouldn't seem so.