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That's interesting. Seems like Dorn's real strength is actually his ability to identify the flaws in things. Flaws of character, flaws in fortifications, flaws in plans, and of course the flaws in himself...

Again, the only time Perturabo and Dorn actually fought each other, Perturabo came up on top.

The only excuse Dorn fanboys have is that "he totally meant to lose". Please, stop. Dorn lost against Perturabo in the cage regardless of questions about "fairness" and he was completely wrong about Perturbo not being able to destroy his fortifications on Terra.

I'm not saying Dorn was a bad primarch, or even a bad strategist, merely that he was not infallible and that a lot of his blunt "honest opinions" were actually wrong. In fact, he was by all accounts a brilliant strategist but also arrogant, stubborn, self-important, honest to a fault, and had a very low opinion of people who didn't meet his expectations (pretty much anyone who was not the emperor or himself).

w1zard wrote:
Again, the only time Perturabo and Dorn actually fought each other, Perturabo came up on top.

The only excuse Dorn fanboys have is that "he totally meant to lose". Please, stop. Dorn lost against Perturabo in the cage regardless of questions about "fairness" and he was completely wrong about Perturbo not being able to destroy his fortifications on Terra.

Didn't lose. Iron Warriors were broken as a legion. The Fists lost more men, but they could replace those, because they weren't filthy traitors living in hell with no supply lines.
Olympia was destroyed preceding this battle- the IW had to self destruct their own fortress to deny it to the Fists. The Imperial Palace was not breached.

Lexicanum wrote:Under Perturabo's command, a combined assault was launched that finally saw a traitor breakthrough. Perturabo combined an underground assault in tunneler drills with a pinpoint Chaos titan Macrocannon bombardment. The walls of the Emperor's Palace finally broke, unleashing a flood of traitors into the inner courtyards of the Palace. A massive labyrinth of hallways, complexes, courtyards, and buildings, fighting in the outer palace was room-to-room and saw heavy casualties inflicted on the Traitors. Moreover, the inner sanctum of the palace had been heavily reinforced and in the enclosed spaces Traitor titans and heavy war engines became easy prey for the well-prepared loyalists. The Adeptus Custodes made a fierce counterattack at the inner gardens of such brutal efficiency that none of the traitor horde could initially stand against them. However in the end, the Titans of the Legio Mortis proved decisive in a traitor breakthrough. In addition traitor numbers were too great and even the Custodes were overwhelmed. After inflicting horrendous casualties on the traitor forces, so much so that the Chaos Titans could no longer continue to advance, the Custodes would fall back to the final defensive line around the Imperial Palace, the Eternity Gate, manned by the Blood Angels and their Primarch Sanguinius. Perturabo and his Iron Warriors thought that their job had been done, and the Primarch left the battle for the Inner Palace to instead direct a siege against the Imperial Fists Fortress Monastery nearby.

Hilariously, if Pert had stayed to fight instead of pursuing his vendetta, they might have broken through the Eternity gate and bagged the Emperor. Instead, the traitors did not breach the gate, and had to flee or be destroyed to a man by the Imperial Reinforcements- Wolves, Ultras, possibly a few loyalist Dark Angels.

Despite objections by Rogal Dorn, the Emperor decided to willingly fall into Horus' trap knowing all too well what awaited him.

Like Father, like best son. Rogal was taught firsthand that if you are willing to sacrifice everything, you can achieve lasting victory.

After three weeks and six days, Ultramarines intervened, driving off the Iron Warriors. Unable to defeat both Legions combined, Perturabo concentrated his forces on denying the Imperial Fists withdraw and disrupting their ability to collect their dead and wounded battle-brothers, of which 400 were never recovered.

4 weeks in Perturabos 'trap', without resupply, inflicting heavy losses on their enemy. All Pert got from this was 400 fists geneseed. This cannot have been enough to replace the men he lost- whose bodies were left behind in the ruins of the eternal fortress. Meanwhile, logic dictates that Dorn recovered the rest of the bodies- so 1 to 2 new spacemarines for every one that fell.

The Iron Warriors escaped and in exchange for forfeiting the captured Loyalist gene-seed to the Gods of Chaos, Perturabo was raised to Daemon Princehood.

Escaped their own trap. I can only imagine how that conversation went with the Chaos gods.
"Yessss, bring us the head of the Emperor's Champion, and aksssept your assssscencion!"
"Well, we didn't get him and had to flee for our lives. But look- 400 fist corpses!"
"They lossst more men than that to warp accidentssss during the crusade! I thought you said you won? "
"I totally won. I outsmarted him by not facing him in combat, at all. I'm giving you the geneseed as a sacrifice!"
"Geneseed are not skullssss. What am I going to do with fleshy organs? Why didn't you use them to make more marinesss?."
"You gave Fulgrim daemonhood for dicking me around on an Eldar would with a stone."
"Classic! As I recall, you tried to stop him too..."

I'm not saying Dorn was a bad primarch, or even a bad strategist, merely that he was not infallible and that a lot of his blunt "honest opinions" were actually wrong. In fact, he was by all accounts a brilliant strategist but also arrogant, stubborn, self-important, honest to a fault, and had a very low opinion of people who didn't meet his expectations (pretty much anyone who was not the emperor or himself).

Dorn wasn't infallible, that's true. He was loyal to the Emperor and his brothers and didn't see the darkness and weakness in their souls. He could have never imagined that Kurze would raise arms against him. He was a quick learner though, as bisected Alpharius learned.

Smartest thing Perturabo ever did was to not fight Dorn.

Only a Fist fanboy could see losing the majority of their legion and having to be saved by another legion as a "victory". Yes, the Iron Warriors had to withdraw, but you notice was because the Ultramarines showed up, not because of anything Dorn did... Perturabo was toying with Dorn and making him and his men suffer until that point because he was enjoying it too much. Perturabo's biggest flaw was his personal vendetta against Dorn not allowing him to "seal the deal" so to speak.

Just gonna point out that the "Only a Fanboy..." argument doenst lend you (or anyone that uses it) any credibility in their argument, instead it paints you as a fanboy in the opposite direction, who's view is completely based in Bias, no matter how much of a point you might have.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Just gonna point out that the "Only a Fanboy..." argument doenst lend you (or anyone that uses it) any credibility in their argument, instead it paints you as a fanboy in the opposite direction, who's view is completely based in Bias, no matter how much of a point you might have.

Both parties are fanboys. But only one of them is right. Pert would splat dorn. You cannot argue this fact in good faith. Demon Primarch > Primarch in terms of power. That alone would seal the deal.

Is the argument Dorn vs Daemon Pert or Dorn vs Pert?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Just gonna point out that the "Only a Fanboy..." argument doenst lend you (or anyone that uses it) any credibility in their argument, instead it paints you as a fanboy in the opposite direction, who's view is completely based in Bias, no matter how much of a point you might have.

Nah, pointing out when the other side is stretching the facts to a ludicrous degree doesn't mean I'm a fanboy in the opposite direction. It means I'm calling a load of BS what it is.

Not when you keep relying on "pointing it out" as your primary defense.

w1zard wrote:
Only a Fist fanboy could see losing the majority of their legion [citation needed]and having to be saved by another legion as a "victory". Yes, the Iron Warriors had to withdraw, but you notice was because the Ultramarines showed up, not because of anything Dorn did... Perturabo was toying with Dorn and making him and his men suffer until that point because he was enjoying it too much. Perturabo's biggest flaw was his personal vendetta against Dorn not allowing him to "seal the deal" so to speak.

Can you list a source that says the fists lost the majority of their legion at the eternal fortress?

Pert allowed his personal vendetta to get in the way of lasting success (Primarch kill, legion destruction, clean escape). For the second time. Did Dorn expect this, knowing Perturabo?
He failed to anticipate the largest Imperial faction intervening in his sadistic petty nonsense. Did Dorn know this would happen, knowing Roboute?
He was forced to withdraw from his own trap.

The alternative to attacking the Eternal fortress unsupported gave the Iron Warriors time to withdraw.

Roboute's plan was to arrive with all available force in time- they could have destroyed the world from orbit if any Iron Warriors remained. This plan preserved imperial strength at the expense of allowing traitors escape. It was the conservative play, but would offer the least opportunity for Primarch kill or lasting damage to a traitor legion.

Dorn had given them no quarter in Olympia, this was their last real space fastness (that we know of) and the last opportunity to bring them to battle en masse. Dorn also knew that if he gave Pert the opportunity to kill him, Pert would not withdraw before Roboute could rally enough force.

 =Angel= wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Only a Fist fanboy could see losing the majority of their legion [citation needed]and having to be saved by another legion as a "victory". Yes, the Iron Warriors had to withdraw, but you notice was because the Ultramarines showed up, not because of anything Dorn did... Perturabo was toying with Dorn and making him and his men suffer until that point because he was enjoying it too much. Perturabo's biggest flaw was his personal vendetta against Dorn not allowing him to "seal the deal" so to speak.

Can you list a source that says the fists lost the majority of their legion at the eternal fortress?

Pert allowed his personal vendetta to get in the way of lasting success (Primarch kill, legion destruction, clean escape). For the second time. Did Dorn expect this, knowing Perturabo?
He failed to anticipate the largest Imperial faction intervening in his sadistic petty nonsense. Did Dorn know this would happen, knowing Roboute?
He was forced to withdraw from his own trap.

The alternative to attacking the Eternal fortress unsupported gave the Iron Warriors time to withdraw.

Roboute's plan was to arrive with all available force in time- they could have destroyed the world from orbit if any Iron Warriors remained. This plan preserved imperial strength at the expense of allowing traitors escape. It was the conservative play, but would offer the least opportunity for Primarch kill or lasting damage to a traitor legion.

Dorn had given them no quarter in Olympia, this was their last real space fastness (that we know of) and the last opportunity to bring them to battle en masse. Dorn also knew that if he gave Pert the opportunity to kill him, Pert would not withdraw before Roboute could rally enough force.

seems logical to meand is certainly the way I'd write it if I wanted to write the story without it turning into a (painful to read) emofest.

 =Angel= wrote:
Can you list a source that says the fists lost the majority of their legion at the eternal fortress?

We know almost the entire legion went into the cage along with Dorn because the Index astartes I and II both agree on this. What this number is, we have no idea, but the nominal strength of the Imperial Fists was around ~100,000... although the siege of Terra and the scourging probably reduced that number significantly.

As for the number of remaining Fists at the end of the Iron Cage:
"What remained of the Imperial Fists was a hardened, veteran force willing and able to comply with the Codex Astartes... ...The Legion was then split into at least five Chapters, including the Crimson Fists, Black Templars, Soul Drinkers, and Excoriators."
-Index Astartes II

These were the only second founding chapters formed by the Fists. If all were codex compliant (which they seemed to be at least initially) and including the numbers of the Fists that stayed with the original legion, there seemed to be about 5,000-6,000 Fists left.

So... anywhere from 15,000-60,000 went in, and only 6,000 MAX came out alive.

Table wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Just gonna point out that the "Only a Fanboy..." argument doenst lend you (or anyone that uses it) any credibility in their argument, instead it paints you as a fanboy in the opposite direction, who's view is completely based in Bias, no matter how much of a point you might have.

Both parties are fanboys. But only one of them is right. Pert would splat dorn. You cannot argue this fact in good faith. Demon Primarch > Primarch in terms of power. That alone would seal the deal.

Might need to define Demon Primarch there. Corax beat Demon Lorgar easily and that was after Lorgar stopped being the worst Primarch.

Table wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Just gonna point out that the "Only a Fanboy..." argument doenst lend you (or anyone that uses it) any credibility in their argument, instead it paints you as a fanboy in the opposite direction, who's view is completely based in Bias, no matter how much of a point you might have.

Both parties are fanboys. But only one of them is right. Pert would splat dorn. You cannot argue this fact in good faith. Demon Primarch > Primarch in terms of power. That alone would seal the deal.

Except Primarch Perty kicked Deamon Angrons Arse, power is nothing if you cant use it properly.

w1zard wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Can you list a source that says the fists lost the majority of their legion at the eternal fortress?

These were the only second founding chapters formed by the Fists. If all were codex compliant (which they seemed to be at least initially) and including the numbers of the Fists that stayed with the original legion, there seemed to be about 5,000-6,000 Fists left.

So... anywhere from 15,000-60,000 went in, and only 6,000 MAX came out alive.

The first issue with that is the Ultras only have 16 2nd founding chapters we know of, they would have had more dudes than the Fists even before the Eternal fortress Numbers on successors are deliberately vague so you can insert your chapter. If the Ultras were only 16K, the Fists didn't lose a majority.

The second is that it assumes the Black Templars started codex compliant and built their numbers. The templars were the 'chapter' for the marines who wanted to remain a crusading legion from the outset.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:"He was, after all, the one guy who said 'Sure, cool, this Chapter idea is brilliant. But mine will be six times the size of everyone else's, just because I say so. Later, Terrans.'"

It also assumes the others were ALL codex compliant, which is a far more reasonable assumption, but we don't know that because we don't know exactly how many there were. A lowball estimate would be that the Templars and other Fists chapters brought the total number of Dorn's sons to 10K+, after the cage. Its a good time to form chapters as there's plenty of spare geneseed to go around. If less than 20k+ went in, they didn't lose a majority.

The third issue is we don't know the numbers of the legion going in. As you mention, they started the heresy at maybe 100k and took heavy casualties fighting titans on mars, in the battle of phall and in the solar war and the scouring thereafter.

The Perturabo apologists are trying to make casualties suffered into some kind of victory for the Iron Warriors. GW's numbers are absolutely all over the place at the best of times - when the background was initially written the legions were much smaller. Further, the theme of 40k is that you sacrifice to win, and the Iron Warriors didn't.

Is this a 30k or 40k question? Because in 40k I'm pretty sure any daemon primarch can beat any non-daemon primarch more or less by default 1 on 1.

In 30k, it would probably be a lot closer.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Is this a 30k or 40k question? Because in 40k I'm pretty sure any daemon primarch can beat any non-daemon primarch more or less by default 1 on 1.

Not so. After the Scouring, Corax chased the Traitors into the EoT and kerb-stomped Daemon-Lorgar so hard he ran away through a warp portal and locked himself in a room for 9000 years. This was after Lorgar's ascension so daemonhood is not a guarantee of victory, even in a 1-on-1 duel. Mind you, Corax implied he had found a non-chaotic way to "level-up". He certainly had some funky new abilities such as transforming into a murder of crows.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Is this a 30k or 40k question? Because in 40k I'm pretty sure any daemon primarch can beat any non-daemon primarch more or less by default 1 on 1.

Not so. After the Scouring, Corax chased the Traitors into the EoT and kerb-stomped Daemon-Lorgar so hard he ran away through a warp portal and locked himself in a room for 9000 years. This was after Lorgar's ascension so daemonhood is not a guarantee of victory, even in a 1-on-1 duel. Mind you, Corax implied he had found a non-chaotic way to "level-up". He certainly had some funky new abilities such as transforming into a murder of crows.

That's a cool story, but not as cool as transforming into a murder of Alpha Legionnaires.

Even as an Imperial Fists player, I gotta agree that Dorn is kind of a chump regarding combat.

Dorn was a good tactician though and only bested by Horus in the number of liberated worlds (according to Horus Rising Novel).

 =Angel= wrote:
A lowball estimate would be that the Templars and other Fists chapters brought the total number of Dorn's sons to 10K+, after the cage. Its a good time to form chapters as there's plenty of spare geneseed to go around. If less than 20k+ went in, they didn't lose a majority.

The third issue is we don't know the numbers of the legion going in. As you mention, they started the heresy at maybe 100k and took heavy casualties fighting titans on mars, in the battle of phall and in the solar war and the scouring thereafter.

Even in an absurdly biased best-case scenario, where the Black Templars actually had 4K marines and weren't codex compliant + there are a few other Imperial Fist second founding chapters we don't know about... it means that there were roughly 12,000 survivors of the iron cage. Assuming an extremely lowball estimate of 16,000 Fists going into the cage, that is still 25% death rate, which is still absolutely atrocious casualties. I still can't see how anyone can claim that as a "Fist victory", especially since the Iron Warriors suffered far fewer casualties and basically lost nothing of strategic worth from the engagement.

 =Angel= wrote:
Further, the theme of 40k is that you sacrifice to win, and the Iron Warriors didn't.

I don't even know what you mean here or why it is remotely relevant to what we are talking about.

w1zard wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
A lowball estimate would be that the Templars and other Fists chapters brought the total number of Dorn's sons to 10K+, after the cage. Its a good time to form chapters as there's plenty of spare geneseed to go around. If less than 20k+ went in, they didn't lose a majority.

The third issue is we don't know the numbers of the legion going in. As you mention, they started the heresy at maybe 100k and took heavy casualties fighting titans on mars, in the battle of phall and in the solar war and the scouring thereafter.

Even in an absurdly biased best-case scenario, where the Black Templars actually had 4K marines and weren't codex compliant + there are a few other Imperial Fist second founding chapters we don't know about... it means that there were roughly 12,000 survivors of the iron cage. Assuming an extremely lowball estimate of 16,000 Fists going into the cage, that is still 25% death rate, which is still absolutely atrocious casualties. I still can't see how anyone can claim that as a "Fist victory", especially since the Iron Warriors suffered far fewer casualties and basically lost nothing of strategic worth from the engagement.

 =Angel= wrote:
Further, the theme of 40k is that you sacrifice to win, and the Iron Warriors didn't.

I don't even know what you mean here or why it is remotely relevant to what we are talking about.

My point is that victory is not a numbers game in 40k. In many cases the stakes are high enough that 100% casualties are acceptable losses for the force involved- as long as the warp portal is sealed, or the device is activated or the ritual is broken. The Imperium don't get to declare victory in Armageddon because more Orks died than men. The Iron Warriors didn't get to declare victory at Hydra Cordatus because they killed a bunch of guardmen. Objectives must be achieved.

The Invaders Space Marines took 70% casualties destroying a craftworld and in the subsequent retaliation from Alaitoc, losing their fortress monastery in the process. The Highlords can poop out another chapter called 'the Invaders 2, Successor Bugaloo' tomorrow, but the Eldar aren't getting any more craftworlds. In the same way, the Imperium/Chaos isn't getting any new primarchs.

Killing a Primarch can only be achieved through sacrificing men and risk of failure. The threat of a traitor legion having a realspace stronghold is another. It's clear that Dorn would have sacrificed himself and all his sons to kill Pert and Pert would have sacrificed all his sons to not die. Dorns objective militarily was to remove the IW from imperial space, preferably in bodybags/Iron cages. That's why when the Iron Warriors were driven from realspace- it was an Imperial victory. The heavy casualties turned it into more of a pyrrhic victory- the best kind of 40k victory.

Incidently the first book of Siege of Terra confirms that Dorn's stragety from the start was to delay delay delay until Gulliman could arrive so... given his stragety worked..

The Emperor of Mankind wrote:"Poor, brave Malcador the Hero. He reserved a fragment of his strength for me. It gives me little time to pass final orders to you. If you do as I ask then I shall not wholly die, my spirit at least will survive. My injuries are severe, more so than I had hoped but less than I feared. My psychic powers will return to me in time but my body will never heal. I shall never walk amongst you again. I am now bound to this machine for all time. My faithful bodyguard and attendants know what is required. You must do as they request!

"Dorn and Jaghatai, you have much work to do. Though the head of the serpent has been destroyed its coils still choke the safety of Mankind. You and your loyal brothers must fight on. Cleanse the taint of treachery from our stars. Never again must we allow the Ruinous Powers of Chaos to have such a chance. Now all of you go! You know your duties. Execute them well. The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

A final point of the cage. Dorn was following direct instructions from the Emperor, which Guilliman did not receive. The Scourging of the Imperium effectively ended with the implementation of the Codex Astartes, breakdown into chapters- but the Iron Warriors still had a real-space fastness.The Black Templars effectively continue the crusade where other chapters have consolidated.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Maybe just MAYBE they were both being a bunch of idiots.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong... Perturabo is an EXTREMELY flawed man. Imagine not being able to defeat your rival completely because you hate him so much that you were too busy trying to make him suffer...

But IMO Dorn is just as flawed, and for some reason a lot of people seem to think he was the golden boy when he really wasn't. He was arrogant, stubborn (beyond even Perturabo), honest to a fault (which contrary to what people like to think is NOT a good thing), and not very nice to pretty much anyone who wasn't the emperor. He also had an inflated sense of his own abilities and self-importance among the primarchs because he was given the job of fortifying Terra (Malcador roasts him constantly about this).

And yet Dorn for all his faults was not close to the petulant diva pretending to be a martyr that Perturabo turned out to be.

Perturabo outclasses Dorn in siege skill and raw intelligence yet if given the choice between working with Dorn or Perturabo i would pick Dorn Perturabo for all his skill and might never grew beyond the petulant man child he was on Olympia.

Which i suspect is the reason that the Emperor picked Dorn over Perturabo to fortify Terra .

Perturabo's flaws are just not worth the effort when there is someone else who is almost as skilled a siegemaster who is not a petulant man child

I personally voted Perturabo in a one versus one combat- he has a small arsenal on him and able to beat Daemon Angron in melee after getting weakened from the Angel Exterminatus event. Granted I don’t think it’s an automatic win but I’d put my money on ‘ol Perty. If the Black Templar’s are any indication then Dorn could well be an extremely gifted fighter and he does have Alpharius under his belt for victories, but that required help if I remember correctly.

The guy who got the credit vs the guy who did the work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did'nt Dorn also get beat to within an inch of his life by Curze. This vs a Primarch who could outfight both Angron and Fulgrim.

Perturabo is like the Siege expertise of Dorn with the Technical and artisanal hability of Ferrus Manu all of those combined in a toxic package of overvaluation. And I love him for that.

I wouldn't say it would be a easy fight because no fight between two primarchs would be, no matter what most people says. The strongest and the weaker primarch were enough close in skill, power and/or special habilities that everybody would have a fair chance agaisnt another, depending more in context than anything else.

But I don't understand why people call Perturabo a petulant man child when the Emperor admited that he was on purpose keeping Perturabo out of the spotlight and making him a bitterd basstard for his own plans of the future heresy.

 Galas wrote:
Perturabo is like the Siege expertise of Dorn with the Technical and artisanal hability of Ferrus Manu all of those combined in a toxic package of overvaluation. And I love him for that.

I wouldn't say it would be a easy fight because no fight between two primarchs would be, no matter what most people says. The strongest and the weaker primarch were enough close in skill, power and/or special habilities that everybody would have a fair chance agaisnt another, depending more in context than anything else.

But I don't understand why people call Perturabo a petulant man child when the Emperor admited that he was on purpose keeping Perturabo out of the spotlight and making him a bitterd basstard for his own plans of the future heresy.

Petulant manchild




{Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. [b]You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]

'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.[/b]'}

No it was not the emperor or Dorn or anyone else who held Perturabo back it was his own flaws.

Those quotes are absolutely unbiased and 100% objetive.

I mean, Perturabo was a dick and had a big "notice me senpai" complex.
Thats his whole point, like all the chaos primarchs they where heavely flawed by design. Barring Angron, he was clearly a loyalist primarch from the beginning, but as Malcador and the Emperor pointed out, the butcher nails destroyed his future and he was nothing but a broken tool.

But I don't understand why people call Perturabo a petulant man child when the Emperor admited that he was on purpose keeping Perturabo out of the spotlight and making him a bitterd basstard for his own plans of the future heresy.

I haven't been keeping up with the fluff what is this about?