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 SickSix wrote:
Old Marines are on life support. 'Spears of the Emperor' confirms their demise.

Spoiler:

In 'Spears' they convert a severely wounded normal marine to a Primaris marine, in the apothacarion of a Cruiser. And you know what they call the procedure? Calgarian rites.

Black Library is generally ahead of the table top by a year or two. So when Black Library is basically writing the phase out of Old Marines, then don't expect them to recieve new rules anytime soon. They are done. Kaput. Kicked the bucket.

The unfortunate thing is that the lore of Primaris has been setup so that once Primaris completely take over, the only thing that is going to differeniate the chapters is strategums and chapter tactics. No more death company, no more wulfen (thank god), no more super unique units. Everyone will be the same with just slight rules tweaks. (IMHO, BORING).

The price for getting rid of mary sue wulfen.

That would be a silver lining, for sure.

 SickSix wrote:
Old Marines are on life support. 'Spears of the Emperor' confirms their demise.

Spoiler:

In 'Spears' they convert a severely wounded normal marine to a Primaris marine, in the apothacarion of a Cruiser. And you know what they call the procedure? Calgarian rites.

Black Library is generally ahead of the table top by a year or two. So when Black Library is basically writing the phase out of Old Marines, then don't expect them to recieve new rules anytime soon. They are done. Kaput. Kicked the bucket.

The unfortunate thing is that the lore of Primaris has been setup so that once Primaris completely take over, the only thing that is going to differeniate the chapters is strategums and chapter tactics. No more death company, no more wulfen (thank god), no more super unique units. Everyone will be the same with just slight rules tweaks. (IMHO, BORING).

you realize Calgar was updated to a Primaris Marine on table top like 6 months ago right? that mariens can be updated is hardly proof the sky is falling.

Voss wrote:

DA don't like primaris, BA are already 50%+ primaris, though there are chapters like the flesh tearers that despise them.

Blood Angels are about 75% Primaris after the Desolation of Baal. Dante estimated no more than 300 had survived.

SickSix wrote:

The unfortunate thing is that the lore of Primaris has been setup so that once Primaris completely take over, the only thing that is going to differeniate the chapters is strategums and chapter tactics. No more death company, no more wulfen (thank god), no more super unique units. Everyone will be the same with just slight rules tweaks. (IMHO, BORING).

I doubt the Death Company are gone. The rage always returns, the final entry in the BA timeline hints at it. One of the studio guys stated the Wulfen were made fit into a primaris army. I'm drawing a blank on the guy's name.

My guess is the current codexes will remain, so you can continue to use your old marines.But will get over shadowed by a new primaris only codex. Future campaign books will add specialist units to the primaris range. Worse case scenario there will be a gap.

 Ishagu wrote:
d and some of the HQ's looks ridiculous and wouldn't even be able to walk in real life.

I'm baffled that people want MORE armour marks on the same Marines. How many more redundant units do people want for the line?

Armor Marks that have no rules difference? There's no confusion and no redundancy. It's a cosmetic function only. Some like beakies, some like Mark III, some like Mark 8. But they all function the same. I wish more games did this. World of Warcraft has a new aesthetic every expansion. I would have been thrilled if they gave us a graphics option to paint every model in X expansion so you could pick the look you like best and see everyone in that way. Obviously not possible in 40K with physical models, but let each player run their own Armor Marks works for me. If they want to play a very old Chapter with lots of old armor, have at it. If they want to run a new one that doesn't have much of any hand-me-downs good for them.

and how many armor mark boxes can the game sustain? I mean "just put out more space marine armor marks" isn't a partiuclarly good plan.

SeanDrake wrote:


We have 4 terminators variants because the plastics were made for HH and it was daft not to include them in 40k they are also distinct with trade off’s made in the rules.

I absolutely agree it would have been daft not to include the other Terminator suits in 40K. I don't know that they needed individual rules, with tradeoffs. There's no individual rules for Mark Beakies, and Crusaders etc.

Maybe but I think the seperate termy rules work nicely. I'd be fine if they didn't have seperate rules though.

BrianDavion wrote:
and how many armor mark boxes can the game sustain? I mean "just put out more space marine armor marks" isn't a partiuclarly good plan.

The Primaris Boxes already have the solution. Look at how many Primaris boxes have greave fronts that go on incomplete leg sets. One box, multiple skins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Maybe but I think the seperate termy rules work nicely. I'd be fine if they didn't have seperate rules though.

They work, but they're not really necessary. Few people would have even blinked if they all had the same rules. We're actually used to it. Its more surprising they have special rules than if they didn't. We're used to Power Armor is Power Armor, Terminator Armor is Terminator Armor, and they all function the same on the table top.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
and how many armor mark boxes can the game sustain? I mean "just put out more space marine armor marks" isn't a partiuclarly good plan.

The Primaris Boxes already have the solution. Look at how many Primaris boxes have greave fronts that go on incomplete leg sets. One box, multiple skins.

Well, to be fair, Mark X armor is described to be highly modular allowing parts to be removed and/or added as needed. Games Workshop doesn't really need to create a Mark XI as much as they can just say this is a new configuration of Mark X armor.

That's not to say they would make use of they way the designed the models to make it easier to create new kits. To be honest, I did wonder why they bothered to the greaves being multi-part like that when the easy-to-build were just a solid piece. It seemed to be the legs were slim enough to not need the extra part count. I don't know if that was the case though.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
and how many armor mark boxes can the game sustain? I mean "just put out more space marine armor marks" isn't a partiuclarly good plan.

The Primaris Boxes already have the solution. Look at how many Primaris boxes have greave fronts that go on incomplete leg sets. One box, multiple skins.

Well, to be fair, Mark X armor is described to be highly modular allowing parts to be removed and/or added as needed. Games Workshop doesn't really need to create a Mark XI as much as they can just say this is a new configuration of Mark X armor.

That's not to say they would make use of they way the designed the models to make it easier to create new kits. To be honest, I did wonder why they bothered to the greaves being multi-part like that when the easy-to-build were just a solid piece. It seemed to be the legs were slim enough to not need the extra part count. I don't know if that was the case though.

The Non-ETB Inceptors are a whole lot better looking - more polished. Without the multi-part legs they can't model as many voids between parts - look at the feet and those grav plate shock absorbing boot things, and the barrel guard on the assault bolters. The Aggressors have options on the legs for the Sergeant to get an Aquilla style decoration on the shin. They can take the same principle to get the different knee joints/plates on the different 1.0 power armor marks, then its just a matter of matching the front chest piece, shoulder pads and heads- which would probably mean more plastic used, and more bits tossed in a box, which could be the reason they don't do this.

Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

because why would GW sell both items when they could instead have a conspiracy to cut their best selling line in half!?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

My guess is:
This is a balance reboot, to try and "fix" space marines not an expansion of the model range.
They've learned from initial GK roll out and evolution going too high on the points costs is too hard to balance vs the horde armies so they can't make Primaris an addition to with higher points costs.
Space Marines are their baseline to balance everything else against - and Space Marines aren't balanced to everything else anymore.
The problem they're trying to fix became noticable after Necrons 3+ +Reanimation - and nerfing Necrons hasn't helped vs the other armies so its easier to buff Marines with their own gimmick - +1A +1W.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

Because why have 2 units that do the exact same thing and fill the exact same role?

The SM line is a complete fething mess of bloated units with bloated options that are all stepping on eachothers toes for design space. The primaris line has significantly less options (which means you need to buy another box of a different unit if you want x type of weapon) and more specialized roles which means there is little to no overlap.

 Lance845 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

Because why have 2 units that do the exact same thing and fill the exact same role?

The SM line is a complete fething mess of bloated units with bloated options that are all stepping on eachothers toes for design space. The primaris line has significantly less options (which means you need to buy another box of a different unit if you want x type of weapon) and more specialized roles which means there is little to no overlap.

thats a bad answer, because by your own admission primaris are differant from space Marines. yes the OLD Marine line has a lot of bloat, which is a problem only in terms of "ok where do we go with new kits from here?" right now despite Primaris Marines being around I'd be willing to bet good money that old Marines still outsell a number of other Xenos armies. bluntly put GW likely has, finanically speaking more incentive to chop Eldar Necrons or Orks then they do to chop old Marines

Breton wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Tacticals and the renaissance Primaris Marines have different stats.
Dito for Scouts and the infiltrating Primaris.
So why shouldn't they both (1W and 2W) exist in the 40k universe?

My guess is:
This is a balance reboot, to try and "fix" space marines not an expansion of the model range.
They've learned from initial GK roll out and evolution going too high on the points costs is too hard to balance vs the horde armies so they can't make Primaris an addition to with higher points costs.
Space Marines are their baseline to balance everything else against - and Space Marines aren't balanced to everything else anymore.
The problem they're trying to fix became noticable after Necrons 3+ +Reanimation - and nerfing Necrons hasn't helped vs the other armies so its easier to buff Marines with their own gimmick - +1A +1W.

Haha pls. Nothing gw does model design wise has any thought to balance! They go purely by what would sell and whaterver the sculptor feels like at the moment (so rule of cool). Do you really think they even consider horde contra elite balance when inventing new primaris stuff? They simply make marine inspired units but bigger.

actually primaris are almost exactly what was being asked for to fix marines back in 7th. 2 wounds, specialized squads

BrianDavion wrote:
actually primaris are almost exactly what was being asked for to fix marines back in 7th. 2 wounds, specialized squads

Except in 7th having 2 wounds was a benefit. In 8th having 2 wounds actually makes you MORE fragile.

BrianDavion wrote:
actually primaris are almost exactly what was being asked for to fix marines back in 7th. 2 wounds, specialized squads

Tacticals didn't need fixing in 7th. Invulns, lack of multdamage weapons, psychic powers, and the odd relatioship between vehicles and monstrous creatures needed fixing in 7th.

Any issue with tacticals was secondary to all that. As soon as Tacs got access to weapons that did more than one wound, to compete with the proliferation of larger models, they got better. And as soon as they got the ability to split fire to make better use of their mixed weapons, they got better.

Most of the desire for units to specialize with their weapons came from the fact that units could only fire at one target. That's no longer an issue.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except in 7th having 2 wounds was a benefit. In 8th having 2 wounds actually makes you MORE fragile.

I am but a spring flower who did not play 7th, please explain. How are two wounds worse than one?

Since new CSM models who share pretty much the same stat line as normal marines came out this year, there is a chance that once the primaris marines are finally made into a full army then normal marines will get the height boost CSM got and continue to stay around for years to come. Maybe at some point (when the primaris line gets re-released for example) normal marines and primaris marines will be merged into 2W, 2A marines who can take special weapons and have AP-1 bolters.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
actually primaris are almost exactly what was being asked for to fix marines back in 7th. 2 wounds, specialized squads

Except in 7th having 2 wounds was a benefit. In 8th having 2 wounds actually makes you MORE fragile.

Plasma is gonna kill your marine no matter how many wounds it has or doesn't have.

It doesn’t make you “more fragile”, but the prevalence of D2 weapons means W2 models can be killed as easily as W1 models if you’re not careful. They’re still more resilient vs D1.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn’t make you “more fragile”, but the prevalence of D2 weapons means W2 models can be killed as easily as W1 models if you’re not careful. They’re still more resilient vs D1.

It actually kind of does make the army more fragile as a whole. Individual models are harder to kill but you have fewer models on the table and there are a lot of multi-wound weapons out there.

The Newman wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn’t make you “more fragile”, but the prevalence of D2 weapons means W2 models can be killed as easily as W1 models if you’re not careful. They’re still more resilient vs D1.

It actually kind of does make the army more fragile as a whole. Individual models are harder to kill but you have fewer models on the table and there are a lot of multi-wound weapons out there.

You don't have to take fewer numbers. A loaded out Tac squad costs more than an Intercessor squad. Your build is your own doing.

 Insectum7 wrote:

The Newman wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It doesn’t make you “more fragile”, but the prevalence of D2 weapons means W2 models can be killed as easily as W1 models if you’re not careful. They’re still more resilient vs D1.

It actually kind of does make the army more fragile as a whole. Individual models are harder to kill but you have fewer models on the table and there are a lot of multi-wound weapons out there.

You don't have to take fewer numbers. A loaded out Tac squad costs more than an Intercessor squad. Your build is your own doing.

Tacs and Intercessors are about even if you take sensible load-outs for them. A fully min-maxed Dev squad is about even with a min Hellblaster squad. But then you look at Inceptors, Eliminators, Infiltrators, or Redemptors next to their mini-marine equivalents and they're awfully spendy.

I suspect primaris Marines having 2 wounds is why we see so many 2W weapons used in the table top. Marines are the most common army and TAC lists thus tend to be designed to counter commonly seen Marine units. and in that regard Marines can't really win no matter what they use.. well unless they don't use Marines (see scouts, the loyal 32 etc)

What are you comparing to what? The 'comparative' units get less obvious. I hope you're not comparing Inceptors to Assault Squads.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect primaris Marines having 2 wounds is why we see so many 2W weapons used in the table top. Marines are the most common army and TAC lists thus tend to be designed to counter commonly seen Marine units. and in that regard Marines can't really win no matter what they use.. well unless they don't use Marines (see scouts, the loyal 32 etc)

Much of the 2W weapons are great/best-choice weapons regardless of the existence of Primaris.

 Insectum7 wrote:
What are you comparing to what? The 'comparative' units get less obvious. I hope you're not comparing Inceptors to Assault Squads.

I suspect he is. frankly IMHO inceptors are best compared to a bike squad. the inceptor is more points for sure but has several advantages vs bikes namely the abilioty to deep strike, fly and being infantry (and thus capable of entering ruins)

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What are you comparing to what? The 'comparative' units get less obvious. I hope you're not comparing Inceptors to Assault Squads.

I suspect he is. frankly IMHO inceptors are best compared to a bike squad. the inceptor is more points for sure but has several advantages vs bikes namely the abilioty to deep strike, fly and being infantry (and thus capable of entering ruins)

Bikes work, but also Vanguard Vets with Jump Packs and dual Plasma Pistols, which at my last look came out pretty comparably in cost, wound for wound, shot for shot.