Switch Theme:

Are we about to see another drop off?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander




Halifax

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
More importantly, games need to appeal to more than just white beardos. I have the good fortune of having a high quality board game café in my home-town's downtown, and the clientele there is considerably more diverse than at the local GW.

Part of it is the price, and part of it is that accessibility as they're a café which means that you can have snacks and drinks while you play your boardgames, some of which play considerably faster than miniature games. Women in particular seem to be a majority of the clientele, and I'd imagine it's because they're not quite as marginalised in board games as they are in miniature gaming.

Which isn't to say there isn't a huge, long way to go because of the kind of 'white fragility' and 'male fragility' that sees expanding the appeal of a product as a betrayal of its core audience. But that we might see something of a Gouldian 'punctuated equilibrium' occur at the next economic downturn as companies trying to milk the same old moobs go belly-up, and companies with broader, more inclusive markets see less of a decline in income.


I'd be curious to know what the general demographic is in the Warhammer Citadel, considering that's a cafe. See if it really does make any considerable difference.

Given the quantity of cafes in the area I'd be inclined to think it has more to do with the games, and perhaps the volume of games. In the café you see groups of 2-6 people sitting around tables laughing and having fun. In the GW you get the monkish painting types occupying the painting area, and then the big gaming tables divvied up between two guys being rather serious. The café also has several walls worth of games organised based on their depths and time-commitment so it's easier to walk in, pull down a game, and pull up a chair. Not to say my local GW isn't fun or doesn't have women, but the café seems to have more of both. It would be interesting to see if we could control for location, service, and cost (although given the cost of boardgames these days, and how the café as a wall of copies you can purchase, that might be about even...). I've been introduced to the manager who set the café up, so I might ask him about it.
   
Made in ca
Three Color Minimum






How did this go to speculation about a gaming industry drop-off to a discussion of racism, gender, and representation?

Back on topic, I think the board game Golden Age is ending. We will indeed see a decline, as the market is extremely saturated right now. I mean, I'm having a hard time justifying many game purchases these days, simply because I have more than my entire family knows what to do with.
At this point, most of my gaming money is spent on accessories for games, and less games themselves.

It almost feels like video games in the 80's.....
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

You only find it comical because it's not your experience. My gaming group of 30 (give or take) is about a 1/4 women. And that's mini games (not just GW) board games and a few card games. And the ages range from a couple of teens to late thirties i'd say.
You buried the lede there, didn't you? Board games and card games do not have the same requirement of money or time, now do they? In fact, usually, only one person owns the board game and everybody else just plays it, unlike a miniature game where everybody has their own models that they buy, assemble, and paint. It costs nothing to play somebody else's copy of Arkham Horror. A large board gaming group can split the cost of of a lot of board games, but every miniature gamer has to be fully invested in the game. If you play two miniature games, you are fully invested in two very expensive games.

I know tons of women who play board and card games - more than I know men who do, actually. But there's a wide gulf between playing Race For the Galaxy and Warhammer 40k. When you say there are 7 women in your gaming group, are they explicitly playing mini games? Are they buying/building/painting the miniatures themselves? Are they playing the game themselves, or are they sharing the hobby with their significant others, who might be the core driving force behind playing it? Like, my wife will play miniature games, but she plays the miniature games that I play, largely because she is sharing in my hobby rather than being an independent participant herself.

Now, you can make the argument that there is an audience for these types of female players. "Girlfriend games" are enough of a genre that you can turn these women into supplementary customers - but they'll drop the hobby if forced to become a primary. But there is money to be made there, though that is built on the premise that GW's customers are "white beardos" with "moobs" who can't get a girl. All the hub bub about boob plate and combat heels isn't about generating new women customers so much as it is about generating supplementary customers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ghool wrote:
How did this go to speculation about a gaming industry drop-off to a discussion of racism, gender, and representation?
Because that's what is most likely to cause an industry drop-off in the near future. I mean, it is one of the reasons Star Wars ain't doing so hot. And if Star Wars can be taken down, nothing is safe.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/07 18:37:21


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Sqorgar wrote:
 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

You only find it comical because it's not your experience. My gaming group of 30 (give or take) is about a 1/4 women. And that's mini games (not just GW) board games and a few card games. And the ages range from a couple of teens to late thirties i'd say.
You buried the lede there, didn't you? Board games and card games do not have the same requirement of money or time, now do they? In fact, usually, only one person owns the board game and everybody else just plays it, unlike a miniature game where everybody has their own models that they buy, assemble, and paint. It costs nothing to play somebody else's copy of Arkham Horror. A large board gaming group can split the cost of of a lot of board games, but every miniature gamer has to be fully invested in the game. If you play two miniature games, you are fully invested in two very expensive games.

I know tons of women who play board and card games - more than I know men who do, actually. But there's a wide gulf between playing Race For the Galaxy and Warhammer 40k. When you say there are 7 women in your gaming group, are they explicitly playing mini games? Are they buying/building/painting the miniatures themselves? Are they playing the game themselves, or are they sharing the hobby with their significant others, who might be the core driving force behind playing it? Like, my wife will play miniature games, but she plays the miniature games that I play, largely because she is sharing in my hobby rather than being an independent participant herself.

Now, you can make the argument that there is an audience for these types of female players. "Girlfriend games" are enough of a genre that you can turn these women into supplementary customers - but they'll drop the hobby if forced to become a primary. But there is money to be made there, though that is built on the premise that GW's customers are "white beardos" with "moobs" who can't get a girl. All the hub bub about boob plate and combat heels isn't about generating new women customers so much as it is about generating supplementary customers.


Not really. It was more to demonstrate that everyone enjoys various forms of table top, not just minis. But you glossed over that not only GW is played, but a few other manufacturers games. So there's branching out into other games as well as dealing with the financial side. Which really isn't a big issue for any working adult or teen for that matter. Girl friend games? Never heard of the term before and it's a crap one. People will play what they want with who they want, that's all that matters. And you're the only one who keeps going on about boob plate for some reason. Other than "outrage" on the internet, i've never even heard of it so much as commented on. And i have a big SoB army, if any of my group cared, they would have said so long ago.
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

 Ghool wrote:
How did this go to speculation about a gaming industry drop-off to a discussion of racism, gender, and representation?

Back on topic, I think the board game Golden Age is ending. We will indeed see a decline, as the market is extremely saturated right now. I mean, I'm having a hard time justifying many game purchases these days, simply because I have more than my entire family knows what to do with.
At this point, most of my gaming money is spent on accessories for games, and less games themselves.

It almost feels like video games in the 80's.....


That's my thinking as well. Though, admittedly, I spend much less time assembling, painting, and gaming than probably the average miniature gamer does. Or at least less than the primary customers do. I remember back in the previous golden age, I bought almost every GW game that came out and at least one army for it. But some of them I shouldn't have. I only ever played a few games of Battlefleet Gothic. I never even finished painting my Warmaster army. These days I but much less, but still have more than I have time to get to. And I've got to think that the people who are buying things the way I used to, must be getting to that point where they're just going to stop, because they've still got that last game they bought sitting there completely unplayed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I personally don't think that PC culture is likely to be something that causes a huge hit to the miniature gaming industry. It's really the oversaturation of different games, which in a way means there's a game for everyone, but also means there are more games than people have time to spend on them. Though individual companies might end up being hurt and alienating fans.

If nothing else, the historical gamers will keep miniature gaming alive. I doubt they are going to be influenced much by PC culture or need for "representation". They don't need to feel any pressure to put women in their Napoleonic armies to appeal more to women, or stop putting Confederate flags on their Confederate regiments to avoid offending anyone.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/07 18:46:56


 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






 Ghool wrote:
How did this go to speculation about a gaming industry drop-off to a discussion of racism, gender, and representation?

Back on topic, I think the board game Golden Age is ending. We will indeed see a decline, as the market is extremely saturated right now. I mean, I'm having a hard time justifying many game purchases these days, simply because I have more than my entire family knows what to do with.
At this point, most of my gaming money is spent on accessories for games, and less games themselves.

It almost feels like video games in the 80's.....


This is one of the things I am really liking about 5th Ed D&D right now. Most of the book releases have been Adventures, they'll last a long time and can be played with many different groups. But unlike 3rd and 3.5 they're not saturating the market with a book for each class, and each race, and so on and so on. The way UA is done now is brilliant and I'm really happy with the direction WoTC is taking the game.

40k, unfortunately is not doing this, this latest asinine Marine launch is terrible at cutting up the content, and with all most all the kits from shadowspear (Both sides) still being unreleased if just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. When I was looking through the game section of my local store the other day, it really did hit me that our hobbies just aren't really financially stable. I mean, consider a board game. Once I buy it, I don't need to buy it again. This means there are a finite market for a lot of these physical games, which is why you are starting to see AAA video game tactics showing up on the table top. (I.E. Breaking up the Marine codex into 6+ smaller faction codexes, releasing 12+ versions of lieutenants, only three of which you can actually buy by itself, and those three are locked behind chapter walls (so screw you non-codex chapter players!)

You know, I'd be willing to put money down that every single time GW does a major new release of primaris models, they'll sell a whole new round of codexes, 3-5 months after they put all the new models (with basic, barebones wargear) into a big box set.

They get your money for the box set (with stuff you really won't want, save for one unit that will be OP as hell)
They get your money for the new Codex
They get your money for any supplements
They will get your money for the full kits.

This isn't sustainable. GW has learned how to social media, everything else about the company is the same as it was 4 years ago.

Kingdom Death is another great example. The game is fun, very fun. But to be honest, owning it is a chore. There is just so much freaking stuff to buy and keep track of. I almost wonder if a miniature company with some role playing books wouldn't ultimately be better for the long term health of that game.

What a time to be alive.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Personal feelings of oversaturation aren't a huge problem. Industry boons aren't caused by people buying more; they're caused by more people buying. Golden ages end when the market stops pulling in new customers. A good example is how X-Wing becoming the number 1 minis game didn't really hurt any of the others because most of X-Wing's playerbase were new to the industry and not overly reliant on existing players. Likewise, videogames haven't grown by getting fans of Mario or Megaman to buy more games each year, but by pulling in huge groups of people that used to think games weren't for them.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

Sqorgar, I will go out and say that you do have a wrong opinion. There's no moral relativism here, you're being racist and sexist, and it's so blatant (as you try to couch your words as something else) that there will be no argument.

You're much better off on 8chan (which has been shut down, at least for now), or somewhere else similar.

DQ:70S++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k94+ID+++A++/sWD178R+++T(I)DM+++

Trust me, no matter what damage they have the potential to do, single-shot weapons always flatter to deceive in 40k.                                                                                                       Rule #1
- BBAP

 
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






 Lorek wrote:
Sqorgar, I will go out and say that you do have a wrong opinion. There's no moral relativism here, you're being racist and sexist, and it's so blatant (as you try to couch your words as something else) that there will be no argument.

You're much better off on 8chan (which has been shut down, at least for now), or somewhere else similar.


I hate to say it, but he's not 100% incorrect. Almost every female gamer I know, and all of my friends wives are more akin to casual gamers than they are to the "serious" types I see among the male population. Many of my female friends have told us on multiple occasions that they have fun with these hobbies because their BF/Husbands do, not because they are deeply invested in them.

There does seem to be some sort of gender split in gaming hobbies. Talking about it doesn't make one racist or sexist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sqorgar wrote:


When escapism becomes preachy, it stops being escapism.


I don't really fully agree with everything you've said, but his quote is spot on. It really should be highlighted.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/07 19:59:34


 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

I haven't seen anyone say anything racist or sexist. Saying that there aren't a lot of women miniature gamers is reality, not sexism. I think in this case, the Dakka mods have a wrong opinion. But hey, guess it's their site.
   
Made in ca
Tormentor






St. Louis

 Togusa wrote:
 Lorek wrote:
Sqorgar, I will go out and say that you do have a wrong opinion. There's no moral relativism here, you're being racist and sexist, and it's so blatant (as you try to couch your words as something else) that there will be no argument.

You're much better off on 8chan (which has been shut down, at least for now), or somewhere else similar.


I hate to say it, but he's not 100% incorrect. Almost every female gamer I know, and all of my friends wives are more akin to casual gamers than they are to the "serious" types I see among the male population. Many of my female friends have told us on multiple occasions that they have fun with these hobbies because their BF/Husbands do, not because they are deeply invested in them.

There does seem to be some sort of gender split in gaming hobbies. Talking about it doesn't make one racist or sexist.

There is absolutely a gender split in gaming hobbies. It's mostly because gaming has a pretty long history of sexism, be it objectification of women in games or more overt sexism and harassment at game stores and conventions. It's not because gaming magically only appeals to folks who have a penis.

Out of my female friends who play, some are casual players, some are tournament players, and some are world renowned painters. There's just as much variety among them as there is among male gamers.
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

Laughing Man, your assessment is ridiculously wrong. Women are generally less interested in tactical war games than men, and it's not because of sexism. Just look at historical gaming. There's literally zero objectification of women in those miniature and I've never heard of any harassment of women at any conventions, and it's been around much longer than fantasy and sci-fi gaming. Yet still mostly men play them. So how did the evil patriarchy keep women out of historical miniature gaming?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/07 20:08:37


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




South New Jersey

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Laughing Man, your assessment is ridiculously wrong. Women are generally less interested in tactical war games than men, and it's not because of sexism. Just look at historical gaming. There's literally zero objectification of women in those miniature and I've never heard of any harassment of women at any conventions, and it's been around much longer than fantasy and sci-fi gaming. Yet still mostly men play them. So how did the evil patriarchy keep women out of historical miniature gaming?


Gender and national security gaming

Women and wargaming: the good, the bad, and the ugly

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Laughing Man, your assessment is ridiculously wrong. Women are generally less interested in tactical war games than men, and it's not because of sexism. Just look at historical gaming. There's literally zero objectification of women in those miniature and I've never heard of any harassment of women at any conventions, and it's been around much longer than fantasy and sci-fi gaming. Yet still mostly men play them. So how did the evil patriarchy keep women out of historical miniature gaming?


It's almost like women aren't particularly interested in something that actively recreates organizations that have barred or widely disapproved of their participation for generations...
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






Nurglitch wrote:
 Sqorgar wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
Sometimes it helps to understand how other people see you.
Don't be a jerk.

It often helps to understand how others see you because then you can develop a sense of empathy for the Other, rather than throwing a tantrum about how all the women and darkies are ruining everything.


I am a little late to the party, but so far I'm not seeing anything in Sqorgar's posts that says anything remotely like that.

Unless I'm just missing something this poster is discussing the act of adding these types of characters into media to pacify a segment of the population rather than for good story telling. Making Thor black, or Capatain Marvel a woman doesn't really do anything to tell a great story. I sort of think of it as skinning a character in fortenite rather than creating an engaging and interesting character, who happens to be "x, y, z."

Is anyone a Grey's Anatomy fan out there? Let me give you an example of a shoehorned black character for a show that sometimes stumbles all over-itself to win the progressive race game.

Dr. Miranda Bailey is a black surgeon of impeccable skill and determination. A show long runner, she's been a major character for all 15 seasons of the show and literally worked her way up from the bottom to become the chief of surgery of the hospital. An impressive character, except that she isn't. For the majority of the show she has been little more than a plot device to say "look! We have a black woman in a position of power, and she's so strong and beautiful." For 15 seasons they have consistently ignored massive sections of her backstory and character in order to push the agenda.

To simplify, the show portrays her as:

Black
Female
Strong

The Show constantly ignores:

She is quite brilliant
She is quite talented (in medicine)
She is a fan of Science Fiction and Fantasy (1 episode in 15 seasons even touches on this, and only for about 10 minutes)
She has great instincts for watching over the other surgeons
She has a great set of morality (rare for that show)
She has a personal code that really could make for a ton of interesting episodes.

Unfortunately, all we ever get to see of her is that she is black, female, and strong. If there were a character whos entire writing was White, Male and Strong, wouldn't we also react by pointing out the bad writing and poor characterization?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Laughing Man wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
 Lorek wrote:
Sqorgar, I will go out and say that you do have a wrong opinion. There's no moral relativism here, you're being racist and sexist, and it's so blatant (as you try to couch your words as something else) that there will be no argument.

You're much better off on 8chan (which has been shut down, at least for now), or somewhere else similar.


I hate to say it, but he's not 100% incorrect. Almost every female gamer I know, and all of my friends wives are more akin to casual gamers than they are to the "serious" types I see among the male population. Many of my female friends have told us on multiple occasions that they have fun with these hobbies because their BF/Husbands do, not because they are deeply invested in them.

There does seem to be some sort of gender split in gaming hobbies. Talking about it doesn't make one racist or sexist.

There is absolutely a gender split in gaming hobbies. It's mostly because gaming has a pretty long history of sexism, be it objectification of women in games or more overt sexism and harassment at game stores and conventions. It's not because gaming magically only appeals to folks who have a penis.

Out of my female friends who play, some are casual players, some are tournament players, and some are world renowned painters. There's just as much variety among them as there is among male gamers.


I'm not really sure I believe that.

Sexism ceartainly still exists in the hobbies and has since the beginning. But, is it really the reason why women do not flock to the hobby in droves? Or is it that they aren't interested in the slightest?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
I haven't seen anyone say anything racist or sexist. Saying that there aren't a lot of women miniature gamers is reality, not sexism. I think in this case, the Dakka mods have a wrong opinion. But hey, guess it's their site.


There is a lot of puckering when these topics come up. Just like with guns or other hot-button issues. I think people are just afraid to even discuss them due to the mobs out there that knee-jerk to call you a racist and ruin your life.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/08/07 20:20:24


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

I support the mods. Sqorgar's posts have exemplified the attitude that scared my wife out of wargaming when she briefly got involved with it. Fortunately, modern games have better representation and fewer creepy bits, so she is able to enjoy gaming at home or with friends she knows.

   
Made in ca
Tormentor






St. Louis

 Togusa wrote:
I'm not really sure I believe that.

Sexism ceartainly still exists in the hobbies and has since the beginning. But, is it really the reason why women do not flock to the hobby in droves? Or is it that they aren't interested in the slightest?

Given that something like 90% of the top tier painters that I know of are women (Lamb, Martin, Reimer, etc.), I think we can safely say that it's not "they aren't interested in the slightest," although "why don't they play with me" might be a pretty decent question. And again, locally my community of 30+ gamers is at least a third women. They're not wives who have been grudgingly dragged along to game night (although quite a few are certainly married to each other those relationships often stemmed from a shared interest in gaming in the first place), they're hobby enthusiasts just like any of the male gamers I hang out with. Sure, the plural of anecdote is not data, but the local gaming scene has made a determined effort to be inclusive, and it's paying off.
   
Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I support the mods. Sqorgar's posts have exemplified the attitude that scared my wife out of wargaming when she briefly got involved with it. Fortunately, modern games have better representation and fewer creepy bits, so she is able to enjoy gaming at home or with friends she knows.


It's interesting how two different people can have such varying experiences.

I've noticed something about a lot of the women in my life, most of them are far more productive than I am.

I am friends with or know well 11 different women and 9 different men.

Of the 11 women, 8 of them have Post Graduate Degrees and very well paid important careers.
Of the remaining 3, all of them have at least a masters.

Of the men, 3 of them have PGDs, 1 has a Masters, and three have Bachelors degrees. 2 Didn't even graduate from HS.

When I talk about gaming with my Female friends, they almost always say that it is fun to play a game or two together, but they don't understand how I can make it something that takes up my majority time. I can tell from talking with them, that while they enjoy participating, they aren't on the same level that I am on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Laughing Man wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
I'm not really sure I believe that.

Sexism ceartainly still exists in the hobbies and has since the beginning. But, is it really the reason why women do not flock to the hobby in droves? Or is it that they aren't interested in the slightest?

Given that something like 90% of the top tier painters that I know of are women (Lamb, Martin, Reimer, etc.), I think we can safely say that it's not "they aren't interested in the slightest," although "why don't they play with me" might be a pretty decent question. And again, locally my community of 30+ gamers is at least a third women. They're not wives who have been grudgingly dragged along to game night (although quite a few are certainly married to each other those relationships often stemmed from a shared interest in gaming in the first place), they're hobby enthusiasts just like any of the male gamers I hang out with. Sure, the plural of anecdote is not data, but the local gaming scene has made a determined effort to be inclusive, and it's paying off.


That's good to see. I've been lucky to know that all the groups I've been in have been very accepting of others with no stipulations on what you are or look like.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/07 20:37:13


 
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker






Las Vegas, NV

Nurglitch wrote:
They can redo the Space Marine codex. It was the first, and possibly the weakest. There's a bunch of material that can be incorporated, and lots of kits that can be dropped.


Just coming into the thread now and reading it through, I wanted to point out that Nurglitch hit the nail on the head a little over a week ago as to what GW's next direction will be. I would expect to see further codex redos in the coming months, with the Sisters of Battle release slotted in there somewhere.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Togusa wrote:
Sexism ceartainly still exists in the hobbies and has since the beginning. But, is it really the reason why women do not flock to the hobby in droves? Or is it that they aren't interested in the slightest?


It's a chicken/egg situation and not one exclusive to women. We all develop interests but we're also constantly rejecting interests and a lot of that rejection comes from signals that tell us something isn't "for us". Gaming has spent decades selling itself as a boys club, so there are absolutely a couple generations of women that aren't interested or at the very least, are trained to resist those interests. The reverse is also true. I love to cook and bake, but my daughter has a fairy bakery show with a token skateboarding boy constantly telling me the activity isn't "for me" and honestly, if "making food" wasn't kind of critical to survival, I'm not sure I would have really given it a fair try for similar reasons. Sure, being inclusive might not win over a whole new audience, but not being exclusive at least gives people not conditioned against or willing to fight through it a chance to share in something we all enjoy.
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

Women and men are different. And that's okay. The fact that there are more men than women interested in miniature gaming, or any particular game, does not mean the industry or game is sexist.
   
Made in gb
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Devon, UK

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Women and men are different. And that's okay. The fact that there are more men than women interested in miniature gaming, or any particular game, does not mean the industry or game is sexist.


This. ^

Some people seem to think equality is a statistical ideal, rather than about fairness.

It is ok if all the things are not strictly represented along socio economic, race or gender splits, all that is important is that if someone outside of the normal statistical breakdown is interested then those differences are not a hinderence to their participation. Equally, nobody who is a sucky opponent should get given any extra leeway because of their race or gender.

None of the women I know have ever exhibited any more than polite interest in gaming, at best. The painting side tends to garner a little more interest from those with an existing creative bent, but more often all I get is slightly amused indulgence. Not a one of them couldn't be a gamer if they'd the mind to, it is simply a case of a near complete lack of interest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/07 21:40:45


We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander




Halifax

 Azreal13 wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Women and men are different. And that's okay. The fact that there are more men than women interested in miniature gaming, or any particular game, does not mean the industry or game is sexist.


This. ^

Some people seem to think equality is a statistical ideal, rather than about fairness.

It is ok if all the things are not strictly represented along socio economic, race or gender splits, all that is important is that if someone outside of the normal statistical breakdown is interested then those differences are not a hinderence to their participation. Equally, nobody who is a sucky opponent should get given any extra leeway because of their race or gender.

None of the women I know have ever exhibited any more than polite interest in gaming, at best. The painting side tends to garner a little more interest from those with an existing creative bent, but more often all I get is slightly amused indulgence. Not a one of them couldn't be a gamer if they'd the mind to, it is simply a case of a near complete lack of interest.

It's less about an ideal than an underserved market. There's no particular reason why there should be more men in hobby gaming than women. There's some decent arguments as to why it should be the other way around. As pointed out, some people see women in their lives with no interest in gaming or miniatures, and some do (and see why they might lose interest after encountering Sqorgar-like fans). Have you considered how many men you know that regard it with a similar bemusement that you're an adult man playing with toys? How many men that might enjoy it, but again either don't like the company, or have other interests? Observer bias is one of the reasons science uses things like the null hypothesis and data, rather than anecdotes.

The point being that the wider the market, the better. The drop-off comes when the so-called 'core audience' has been milked dry. I think we saw something like that during 7th edition, and GW responded effectively by broadening the appeal of their products. Similarly broadening the appeal of your products to the majority of Humanity seems like a good way of avoiding a drop-off rather than depending on the same old. It's also good from the perspective of the people that get to enjoy it, as Warhammer's longevity and availability is surely one of the contributors to its success.
   
Made in gb
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Devon, UK

There's no particular reason why there should be more men in hobby gaming than women


That's where the whole argument falls over. There's absolutely good reasons why different things appeal to different people along all sorts of divisions.

One of the great things about capitalism is it's more or less purely democratic, if people aren't making things then there's probably a good reason. Given the whole premise of this thread is the anticipated drop off from what is considered by many to be just about the greatest time to be a gamer, if those things aren't being made now then the odds of it being because there's a huge untapped market of female gamers that's gone unnoticed are pretty small.

Are there members of minority groups who may be interested in gaming that haven't be caught in the net yet? Probably. Are they a statistically significantly higher percentage of those groups versus individuals who are smack bang in the middle of the core demographic? I'd be less certain.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




UK

Honestly the whole men vs women thing is often way more complex than people realise. Many of the differences are real, but many times they are not the result of that simple difference in gender, but often a whole rafter of elements that add together. They can even be minor things that just add up to a barrier; and many barriers can be quite casual.


Consider how if we go back 20 or 30 years or so many video games were the domain of the geek and nerd. Your typical "Jock/sporty/coolkid/whatever" wouldn't be caught dead playing games.

And yet arcades were a thing and also today games are pretty much commonplace. In fact its almost getting to a point where if you don't game in some form its more abnormal than normal.





Also many times it can simply be that because a group is made up of a single division of society it appears less interesting to those of different divisions. There's more of a cultural/generational/gender divide and thus a bit more a social hump to get over.
Wargames might be the domain of guys more than gals, but that could in part simply be because many of the game groups are full of guys.

You can see the very same thing in other hobby interests. Take horse riding, many of the pony and riding clubs are full of women to the extent that a guy is rarer. And yet we know that there's no real gender divide on if people wish to ride or not (ps this is a UK view - I'm very sure that in the USA there are some regions where the gender balance is fully even or even the total reverse - which further proves my point that gender differences in hobbies/interests are often not limited to it just being about gender as such).

A Blog in Miniature - now featuring reviews of many new Black Library books (latest Novellas) 
   
Made in us
Infiltrating Broodlord




Lake County, Illinois

Who made you the arbiter of who should be in the miniature gaming hobby? There aren't many men into knitting. Should that hobby change so that it appeals more to me if some random person decides that more men in knitting would make them feel better about themselves for some reason? No. It's enough that I could do it if I was interested. Nobody is stopping me except me.
   
Made in us
Tormentor






St. Louis

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Who made you the arbiter of who should be in the miniature gaming hobby? There aren't many men into knitting. Should that hobby change so that it appeals more to me if some random person decides that more men in knitting would make them feel better about themselves for some reason? No. It's enough that I could do it if I was interested. Nobody is stopping me except me.

Fun fact: There's actually been a rather large influx in the knitting hobby in the last several years, thanks largely to discussions about toxic masculinity and misogyny. The response from the knitting community? The more the better. Knitting as a hobby isn't regarded as a women's hobby because women are better or at it, or because they keep men away. It's a women's hobby because men view it as such, and label other men interested in it as weak, feminine, or gay.

Meanwhile, the wargaming hobby remains vastly the domain of men because of gatekeeping like this, where any representation of women in major roles and not as sex objects is often seen as an attack on the hobby as a whole, and a betrayal of the core audience. It's a male dominated hobby because of harrassment of women who express interest, or automatically writing them off as someone's girlfriend/seeking male attention.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Who made you the arbiter of who should be in the miniature gaming hobby? There aren't many men into knitting. Should that hobby change so that it appeals more to me if some random person decides that more men in knitting would make them feel better about themselves for some reason? No. It's enough that I could do it if I was interested. Nobody is stopping me except me.


I would suggest you have a look into knitting groups, you may be very surprised.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Who made you the arbiter of who should be in the miniature gaming hobby? There aren't many men into knitting. Should that hobby change so that it appeals more to me if some random person decides that more men in knitting would make them feel better about themselves for some reason? No. It's enough that I could do it if I was interested. Nobody is stopping me except me.


I think it would be great if someone started selling patterns for chainsword socks, but that's just me. I don't think there needs to be an arbiter. I think the question of who should be in the hobby is simply answered with "everyone".
   
Made in us
Tormentor






St. Louis

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Who made you the arbiter of who should be in the miniature gaming hobby? There aren't many men into knitting. Should that hobby change so that it appeals more to me if some random person decides that more men in knitting would make them feel better about themselves for some reason? No. It's enough that I could do it if I was interested. Nobody is stopping me except me.


I would suggest you have a look into knitting groups, you may be very surprised.

I'm personally a big fan of the large amount of knitted banana hammocks I keep seeing.
   
 
Forum Index » Dakka Discussions
Go to: