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Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

ThatMG wrote:
Also the Awakening makes every new SM codex out of date when they are hardly even released.

So... you've seen the book?

Because that seems like a fairly odd claim to make about a campaign book that we haven't even seen the contents of yet.

   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

BrianDavion wrote:
that said ti doesn't follow that 1k sons will get some new super psyker In fact if I was told "make a new 1k sons unit" I'd consider making a unique deamon engine to try and fill that area out. 1K sons needs some unique heavy supprot


Oh yes, a new psychic support engine. Every psyker within 6" gets +4 to its roll, and range of every psychic power is extended by 12". If you get to 15+ smite will be 2D6, and 3D6 for magnus

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 05:03:16


 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

ThatMG wrote:
8th edition spend £1k on your army and £1k on your books to play your army edition.

Like anyone complaining abput how much this hobby vosts actually spends money on this hobby.

Seriously though, I love this idea that in 2019 you can't just get lore from the internet or ignore any rules that you don't need to specifically play your own army and just read about what other armies can do online.

But sure, keep playing victim because the company that makes this game keeps updating the game because keeping the game updated keeps their bottom line looking good.
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




SemperMortis wrote:
ERJAK wrote:

Idk, everyone thought they'd have to buy vigilus and...nope.


I don't know, for my Orkz the Vigilus book is basically required to be competitive. Without it you can't use the SSAG which is unarguably the best weapon in our entire arsenal, not to mention that it gives you access to a 2nd shoot again stratagem. Heavily nerfed now that we don't use the Loota bomb anymore but still very important for Orkz to be competitive.


I guess they are planning to merge Vigilus and the new codexes. They are using this books like test ground to see if they released something broken, without that affecting the biggest population that will not get the books.
Maybe the pshychic awakening will be merged with the new codexes.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 insaniak wrote:
You can play competitively, and still not want to play using the rules from a specific campaign.


And when you show up and say "you can't use those rules for your army, I didn't buy them" everyone is just going to laugh and call you TFG and not play against you. You can decline to buy a book yourself but you don't get to insist that other people give up their rules because of that decision. Like it or not if they function like the previous supplements they will be part of the standard game and expected to be as legal as Codex: Space Marines.

Now, you would have a point if this was something like the old Cities of Death book, where you got new content that only applied to special Cities of Death games and nothing in the book applied to normal games. In that case it absolutely would be optional content that you could safely ignore because both you and your opponent(s) had to opt in to playing a special variant game. But that's not at all the case here. GW can call it a "campaign" all they want but in reality it's an extension of the codex intended for normal games, just like if GW published an FAQ/errata document that added a rule to a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 insaniak wrote:
It's not dishonest at all. You only 'need' a campaign supplement if you are choosing to use the rules in that supplement. Whether you're playing competitively or not, that's entirely your choice. You're not forced to use any given set of rules just because it exists.


By that standard the codex for your faction is "optional", since you can just play with the index rules. Hell, even the core rulebook is "optional" because nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to play the game. You're free to buy zero rules and just paint your pretty toys. But in the real world this is going to be an extension of the codex and you're putting yourself at a serious disadvantage by refusing to buy it. And it absolutely is dishonest to suggest otherwise, hiding behind a technicality that doesn't really apply in the typical situation and pretending that it makes the price a non-issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:


The LRBT formation and its relic are effectively mandatory if you're taking LRBTs.


But few people are persuaded into an army based around LRBTs even though it exists.


That's not the point. If you play IG you probably have and use LRBTs. If you were playing an army with LRBTs before the supplement, as many people were, you had two choices: buy the supplement to continue being on a level playing field with everyone else, or refuse to buy it and have a weaker army compared to someone with the exact same models on the table and a copy of the pay-to-win bonus rules. It would be like insisting on using the index rules for your LRBTs and not getting to fire twice. Who cares if it's technically legal, it's clearly a self-destructive choice to make.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/08/30 05:47:52


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in au
Stalwart Tribune





 Peregrine wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
You can play competitively, and still not want to play using the rules from a specific campaign.


And when you show up and say "you can't use those rules for your army, I didn't buy them" everyone is just going to laugh and call you TFG and not play against you.

Then...... don't?
If I didn't buy Vigilus, but played against friends who did I wouldn't tell them they couldn't use their specialist detachments, assuming I didn't read their book to use specialist detachments. It's like if a necron player decided that no one was allowed to use Vigilus since they didn't get anything in it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 05:59:10


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

 Peregrine wrote:
GW can call it a "campaign" ...

...and that would make it a campaign.



I'm honestly confused as to what 'disadvantage' you're seeing. You only wind up at a disadvantage if your opponent is using rules that you don't have access to. If you both agree to play the same game, without campaign rules, then I have no idea where this disadvantage is supposed to be coming from.

You are no more obligated to play with campaign rules than you were to play Apocalypse or Cityfight.

   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 insaniak wrote:
...and that would make it a campaign.


Calling a O a "square" doesn't make it a square, it makes it a mislabeled product. GW can call it whatever they want, but functionally it's an extension of your standard codex rules that applies to all games regardless of what narrative elements you are or are not using.

I'm honestly confused as to what 'disadvantage' you're seeing. You only wind up at a disadvantage if your opponent is using rules that you don't have access to. If you both agree to play the same game, without campaign rules, then I have no idea where this disadvantage is supposed to be coming from.


The disadvantage is that if you don't pay $TooMuch to get the rules that make your relic battle cannon D3 instead of DD3 you don't get that buff. Or you don't bring an army that fits your faction's pay-to-win formation and so can't use it effectively even if your opponent hands you a copy of the rules before the game begins. It's just like showing up to a game with the index because you didn't buy the codex, you have inferior rules because you didn't buy the more powerful ones.

You are no more obligated to play with campaign rules than you were to play Apocalypse or Cityfight.


Apparently you don't get it. This is not like previous expansions, the "campaign" rules are part of normal games. You don't have to agree to a special campaign game where campaign rules are included before using one of the formations and its associated stratagems. Your argument is no better than trying to say that Codex: Space Marines is "optional content" because you aren't obligated to use it and can insist that your opponent use their index rules if you don't want to play a game of C:SM Is Legal.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




The point he's getting at, and I don't agree with him much but on this I do, is that sure you can ask someone not to use campaign book rules, but honestly I doubt anyone will listen.

Heres the thing, you might get some people to not do so, but these will be legal rule expansions not just used in the campaign, GW will be sure of that so people buy the books. The fact they'll be legal in all ways, means people won't want to be denied their use, even if you'd rather not pay to win or to pay for that bloaty trend. It'll be just the way it goes, like vigilus it was rare the player not using those formations if their army came with them.

So yeah, it's optional, but if you want to keep up with everyone else unless everyone boycotts it you end up needing to as well to stay with some parity as these bonus rules lately haven't tended to be lateral changes but straight buffs to the armies they came out for.
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 Daedalus81 wrote:

I haven't seen any of these cracking the top tables. And the ones that do were typically alongside a Castellan or a blob of Discordants.

Victrix Guard
Siegebreaker
CF Liberators
Sword Bretheren
Stalker Pack
Cybernetica
Broodsurge
Windrider Host
Wraith Host
Emperor's Blade
Emperor's Conclave
Emperor's Fist
Tempestus Drop
Stompa Mob (duh)
Kult of Speed
Dread Waagh
Blitz Brigade
Bringers of Despair
Devastation Battery
Cult of the Damned
Daemonkin Ritualists
Host Raptorial
Fallen Angels
Legion of Skulls




I thought you followed the meta fairly closely?

All Ork lists use the Dread Waaaagh detachment for the relic.
Most Imperial Guard detachments are Emperors Fist or Emperors Blade.
The devastation battery is taken a ton in chaos lists.
Cybernetica cohort is taken regularly.
Brood surge is almost mandatory.
Vixtrix Guard rules were added to SM codex 2.0 I believe.
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope





Portland, OR

I had assumed it would be campaign books similar to vigilus. Advance the story, add new stuff to keep the game interesting, update things that need updating.

Isn't this what they said they were doing at the launch of 8th? Sprint through all the codexes and then introduce new units and stuff through campaigns. That's the way I understood it and I've enjoyed what's happened so far.

DC:80S--G+MB++I++Pw40k93-D++A+++/wWD166R++T(T)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




The very first thing they said was they realized 7th got too bloated and they wouldn't make that mistake again, and no we are here on the path back to hardcore bloat town.

Though you are correct, it's just like vigilus just with way more books and most all factions will have a reason to buy at least one of them this time around.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 06:54:32


 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





AngryAngel80 wrote:
The very first thing they said was they realized 7th got too bloated and they wouldn't make that mistake again, and no we are here on the path back to hardcore bloat town.

Though you are correct, it's just like vigilus just with way more books and most all factions will have a reason to buy at least one of them this time around.


actually martian_jo is absolutely correct. what GW said was that they no longer felt constrainted to limit additions to armies to codex releases and with the change in policy they can add new stuff. the whole "Ohh no bloat ever" crap? was bs being peddled by review websites like FLG etc. who frankly I doubt knew jack all about GW's long term plans. In fact I know they wheren't because I've play tested gaming supplements before. your focus is on testing whats in front of you, not discussing how it'll fit in with the wider release schedule.

as for all those whining about bloat. what thge feth do you think GW should do when their codices are completed?

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ClockworkZion wrote:
ThatMG wrote:
8th edition spend £1k on your army and £1k on your books to play your army edition.

Like anyone complaining abput how much this hobby vosts actually spends money on this hobby.

Seriously though, I love this idea that in 2019 you can't just get lore from the internet or ignore any rules that you don't need to specifically play your own army and just read about what other armies can do online.

But sure, keep playing victim because the company that makes this game keeps updating the game because keeping the game updated keeps their bottom line looking good.


You know that not everyone lives in america where houses are 4 times the size of a normal flat, and play at home. Some people play at stores, and at stores you can't just go and play with your set of printed official digital rule set, which you of course bought and not just downloaded. It is the same with CA and it is going to be the same for supplements. Maybe not all armies need them, an sm player can play without one, although his army does get better with one. But there are also armies that are just plain bad out of the codex, if a supplement makes them semi playable everyone is going to have to buy two books to start them on top of the CA.



as for all those whining about bloat. what thge feth do you think GW should do when their codices are completed?


I don't know, maybe fix the ones that are strickt worse versions of the index rule sets?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 07:03:37


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Maybe slow down a bit ? Actually give time for things to settle so they can really work on game balance ? I don't know, dumb things like that I guess.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Okey, but how long is that suppose to be. The game is what 30+ years old, people working on rules at the company work there for 10-20 years. 8th is 2 years old. When is the balancing suppose to start. Because right now it looks like GW is randomly making stuff powerful or just giving some factions extra rules, while giving nothing to other.

For example, the WS book seems to have a lot less stuff then the ultramarine book. I get that WS don't have special character models, so they won't have those. But why the fewer relics, or options for successors?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Karol wrote:
Okey, but how long is that suppose to be. The game is what 30+ years old, people working on rules at the company work there for 10-20 years. 8th is 2 years old. When is the balancing suppose to start. Because right now it looks like GW is randomly making stuff powerful or just giving some factions extra rules, while giving nothing to other.

For example, the WS book seems to have a lot less stuff then the ultramarine book. I get that WS don't have special character models, so they won't have those. But why the fewer relics, or options for successors?


That is exactly my point, in two years some armies have had 2 codex drops, and other awful armies have one, and are terribad. All of the bloat for the bloat gods is sort of just tossing rules everywhere while leaving some armies pretty meh for god knows how long. So they aren't just bloating with campaigns but also releasing multiple editions of codex drops and seemingly ignoring some armies who have been either gutted with choices, or just plain suck.

I say, they should work on game balance but they don't really want it I feel as you say, they've had a long time to learn things. Just like conflict breeds profit for an arms dealer, poor balance pushes players into the arms of each new rules drop in hopes this time, they'll be strong, or stay strong just feeding the arms race while leaving the playing field skewed all the while and ignoring core game issues. So GW as usual I guess.

My only point in responding here is the optional campaign really isn't an option its just an upscale in power you can ignore if you like but most won't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/30 07:15:39


 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





Game balance doesn't make money, forcing you to buy replacements via legends and rules bloating with campaigns does.

You go make the math.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Enticing people to buy more products isn't bad in itself, specially if the new thing is better, but only if the initial product was good to begin with. GW products sometimes don't work, and they don't put up warrnings that they may not.

Am not even against the idea of bad armies in a setting. But GW should at least voice it, that army X is going to get no updates, is not ment for new players and we left it there because someone may want to buy the models to paint. instead they market pre nerf and post nerf Inari the same way, and if someone doesn't know it better, which can happen if your a new player, you may buy in to an army which is horrible. Worse thing the horrible stuff does not cost cheaper then the good stuff. 400$ ispent on two different armies may feel like , one dude burning money, and the other is getting what he paid for.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Not Online!!! wrote:
Game balance doesn't make money, forcing you to buy replacements via legends and rules bloating with campaigns does.

You go make the math.



I know it brother. I'm not even saying its bad, it is what it is. I can wish they'd do better though, even if that dream is foolish.
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





AngryAngel80 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Game balance doesn't make money, forcing you to buy replacements via legends and rules bloating with campaigns does.

You go make the math.



I know it brother. I'm not even saying its bad, it is what it is. I can wish they'd do better though, even if that dream is foolish.


See, GW behaves like an industrial company that produced massed ware (cardboard boxes), and that is why they don't understand issues of their lines and instead just cut support.

F.E. Look how long Sissters were not really supported, GW not realizing that a non plastic line aswell as outdated rules won't help sales (eg minimal investment in the product line) makes them fail. That is also why they were so surprised when the Sisters came up so heavy in their survey.

In essence GW has the wrong mindset for the part of industry they are in.

And it get's doubly obvious when we are talking about FW armies, Elysians and Renegades.
1 was so overexpensive, even for FW standards stuck with outdated rules that you can easily see why they dind't sell.

As for the renegads. Whoever thought it would be a great idea to sell "Upgrade" sprues for them to be used in conjunction with GW legs is a bloddy moron, especially in the context of an army that had it's basic infantry priced at 3ppm over most editions. (and was infantry heavy) Add to that mostly outdated rules and you get the ides.
The irony of the later though is the IA13 book short before the end of 7th was a masterpiece. It was internally and externally as balanced as could be. Customizable to no end etc.
6 months later and GW writes now the rules for FW and we get an index that missed 60% of unique units and best off all charachter keywords on obvious charachters.
So ofcourse the sales are breaking down.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Karol wrote:
Okey, but how long is that suppose to be. The game is what 30+ years old, people working on rules at the company work there for 10-20 years. 8th is 2 years old. When is the balancing suppose to start. Because right now it looks like GW is randomly making stuff powerful or just giving some factions extra rules, while giving nothing to other.

For example, the WS book seems to have a lot less stuff then the ultramarine book. I get that WS don't have special character models, so they won't have those. But why the fewer relics, or options for successors?


they don';t have fewer relics, they each have the exact same number. they likewise have the same optiosn for sucessors, the ONLY thing the Ultramarines have regarding sucessors that white scars don't is a page of sucessor colour schemes. something done purely because they couldn't fit all of the know ultramarine sucesors in the space marine codex. white scars have the EXACT SAME NUMBER OF OPTIONS that Ultramarines do. they simply have less characters. anyone who tells you differant is lying.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






AngryAngel80 wrote:
Karol wrote:
Okey, but how long is that suppose to be. The game is what 30+ years old, people working on rules at the company work there for 10-20 years. 8th is 2 years old. When is the balancing suppose to start. Because right now it looks like GW is randomly making stuff powerful or just giving some factions extra rules, while giving nothing to other.

For example, the WS book seems to have a lot less stuff then the ultramarine book. I get that WS don't have special character models, so they won't have those. But why the fewer relics, or options for successors?


That is exactly my point, in two years some armies have had 2 codex drops, and other awful armies have one, and are terribad. All of the bloat for the bloat gods is sort of just tossing rules everywhere while leaving some armies pretty meh for god knows how long. So they aren't just bloating with campaigns but also releasing multiple editions of codex drops and seemingly ignoring some armies who have been either gutted with choices, or just plain suck.

I say, they should work on game balance but they don't really want it I feel as you say, they've had a long time to learn things. Just like conflict breeds profit for an arms dealer, poor balance pushes players into the arms of each new rules drop in hopes this time, they'll be strong, or stay strong just feeding the arms race while leaving the playing field skewed all the while and ignoring core game issues. So GW as usual I guess.

My only point in responding here is the optional campaign really isn't an option its just an upscale in power you can ignore if you like but most won't.


It's GW as usual as GW still has poor quality rules writers who don't have a solid grasp of game mechanics. They had to gut the game to make 8th simple enough to write rules for and yet they still struggle to handle 8th. We still have rule bloat (which people sung GW's praises about removing the bloat from 7th) and yet we are right back at it with expensive books that make relatively minor changes. 7th died for this mess and this new "simplied" edition is turning to be an even more rules source cluster feth.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

Karol wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
ThatMG wrote:
8th edition spend £1k on your army and £1k on your books to play your army edition.

Like anyone complaining abput how much this hobby vosts actually spends money on this hobby.

Seriously though, I love this idea that in 2019 you can't just get lore from the internet or ignore any rules that you don't need to specifically play your own army and just read about what other armies can do online.

But sure, keep playing victim because the company that makes this game keeps updating the game because keeping the game updated keeps their bottom line looking good.


You know that not everyone lives in america where houses are 4 times the size of a normal flat, and play at home. Some people play at stores, and at stores you can't just go and play with your set of printed official digital rule set, which you of course bought and not just downloaded. It is the same with CA and it is going to be the same for supplements. Maybe not all armies need them, an sm player can play without one, although his army does get better with one. But there are also armies that are just plain bad out of the codex, if a supplement makes them semi playable everyone is going to have to buy two books to start them on top of the CA.



as for all those whining about bloat. what thge feth do you think GW should do when their codices are completed?


I don't know, maybe fix the ones that are strickt worse versions of the index rule sets?

Way to misrepresent my arguement completely. And even in the states not all of us live in big houses and bleed cash. I rent a small studio apartment for example.

What I was saying is that these rules are optional for you to include in your army. Skip the preorder, check out some reviews and decide of you need them for how you want to play the game. If not, you can catch up on the lore online (Lexicanium is a good free lore resource, as is YouTube) and you can easilly read up on the options other armies have via reviews or tactics articles for free online as well. No purchasing a book just to know what Orks got in their new book.

An informed consumer is a smart consumer. Going into this thing blind under the assumption you must buy every book is a fool's errand and should be saved for collectors or the most die hard meta chasers.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Vankraken wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
Karol wrote:
Okey, but how long is that suppose to be. The game is what 30+ years old, people working on rules at the company work there for 10-20 years. 8th is 2 years old. When is the balancing suppose to start. Because right now it looks like GW is randomly making stuff powerful or just giving some factions extra rules, while giving nothing to other.

For example, the WS book seems to have a lot less stuff then the ultramarine book. I get that WS don't have special character models, so they won't have those. But why the fewer relics, or options for successors?


That is exactly my point, in two years some armies have had 2 codex drops, and other awful armies have one, and are terribad. All of the bloat for the bloat gods is sort of just tossing rules everywhere while leaving some armies pretty meh for god knows how long. So they aren't just bloating with campaigns but also releasing multiple editions of codex drops and seemingly ignoring some armies who have been either gutted with choices, or just plain suck.

I say, they should work on game balance but they don't really want it I feel as you say, they've had a long time to learn things. Just like conflict breeds profit for an arms dealer, poor balance pushes players into the arms of each new rules drop in hopes this time, they'll be strong, or stay strong just feeding the arms race while leaving the playing field skewed all the while and ignoring core game issues. So GW as usual I guess.

My only point in responding here is the optional campaign really isn't an option its just an upscale in power you can ignore if you like but most won't.


It's GW as usual as GW still has poor quality rules writers who don't have a solid grasp of game mechanics. They had to gut the game to make 8th simple enough to write rules for and yet they still struggle to handle 8th. We still have rule bloat (which people sung GW's praises about removing the bloat from 7th) and yet we are right back at it with expensive books that make relatively minor changes. 7th died for this mess and this new "simplied" edition is turning to be an even more rules source cluster feth.


All too true, and so it'll go on till they really jump the shark which is inevitable at some point. Wonder when we'll see free transports again.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

According to the whiners GW has been jumping the shark since at least 4th edition.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Well according to those who see no evil forever they never made a mistake yet. I guess they equal out ?
   
Made in us
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant





 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

This feels a little bigger than vigilus, which was just for marines (now partly invalidated by the new codex) and csm.


Guard got far more and far better out of Vigilus than Marines did.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain




On the Internet

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well according to those who see no evil forever they never made a mistake yet. I guess they equal out ?

They make mistakes, but this edition have also shown a much better job fixing said mistakes than ever before.

This assumption that they do things solely put of malicious intent is just silly.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 ClockworkZion wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well according to those who see no evil forever they never made a mistake yet. I guess they equal out ?

They make mistakes, but this edition have also shown a much better job fixing said mistakes than ever before.

This assumption that they do things solely put of malicious intent is just silly.


That really depends on what you consider malicious. Are they doing things to cause you pain for the joy of it ? No. Are they being less than honest brokers ? Yes. I shouldn't need to get into what or how, that is easy enough to see but they are at their best neutral towards us if anything. We as the players want a balanced, proper game, they want to profit off imbalance and just care in so far as selling us the new item on the list. That is the core tenant of any business sure, but that doesn't make them good by any stretch either.

If we get what we want, really that doesn't give us a lot of incentive to expand, so we're forever at odds in that regard. I wouldn't say they are malicious just dishonest.
   
 
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