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Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Ishagu wrote:
Nothing stopping any of you from playing narrative to your heart's content!


Surely you mean FORGE THE NARRATIVE!

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 some bloke wrote:
I like the idea of a hero-maker, where perhaps the shiny gubbinz (or boring-named equivalent) would include a variety of special abilities as well as weapons & armour. You could pay 1CP to make a character a Hero, or 3CP to make one a Legend. Heroes get 3 items from the shiny gubbinz section, and Legends get 5. Otherwise it's the standard 1 item per army.

No CP; points! This idiocy of making unit upgrades to cost CP instead of points must stop, it is really annoying. Why regular marines can buy their veteran units for point, but the primaris must pay CP for theirs? Why can Ultramarines buy a chapter master which gives them two CP with points, whilst many other chapters need to pay two CP for their chapter master? (For a net loss of whopping four CP!)

Any pregame updates (CM, Veterans, Relics etc) should cost points, the CP should only be for abilities that are used during the game.

But otherwise a good concept!

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

 Crimson wrote:
 some bloke wrote:
I like the idea of a hero-maker, where perhaps the shiny gubbinz (or boring-named equivalent) would include a variety of special abilities as well as weapons & armour. You could pay 1CP to make a character a Hero, or 3CP to make one a Legend. Heroes get 3 items from the shiny gubbinz section, and Legends get 5. Otherwise it's the standard 1 item per army.

No CP; points! This idiocy of making unit upgrades to cost CP instead of points must stop, it is really annoying. Why regular marines can buy their veteran units for point, but the primaris must pay CP for theirs? Why can Ultramarines buy a chapter master which gives them two CP with points, whilst many other chapters need to pay two CP for their chapter master? (For a net loss of whopping four CP!)

Any pregame updates (CM, Veterans, Relics etc) should cost points, the CP should only be for abilities that are used during the game.

But otherwise a good concept!


This.

CP is nowhere near granular enough for this sort of thing.

Hence why we have the current problems with artefacts - with pistols worth 5-10pts being costed exactly the same as auras or other buffs worth 30-50pts.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dandelion wrote:
Besides, I fail to see how making, say, Longstrike into a generic tank commander would be a balance issue.

Because then you'd be seeing commander "smashstrike" (read - pick busted combo of traits buffing his primary task to the exclusion of everything else) exactly as often, except he will be far more OP and annoying to face than a special character who can be made fluffy or balanced much more easily. See BA smash captain of 8th edition, IH smashbiker of 7th, or Custode murderhobo of HH. Last one being so broken garbage he could solo primarchs with ease. In what world is that an improvement or in any way preferable over characterful characters?

BrianDavion wrote:
It's worth noting that when a character is genuinely unique and isn't just a more powerful version of X. people tend to immediatly dismiss it as bad, never take it etc. Exhibit A, Castellan Crowe. he's a unique character with an intreasting story, one that actually makes him NERFED. don't often hear about him being used.

He is nerfed because GK writer after Ward was seriously incompetent, though. In 5th edition, he was interesting sidegrade, which, while not all that powerful, was taken by people who wanted to take GK army in slightly different direction. I feel people who don't like special characters never saw what was possible with them in 5th edition.

 Just Tony wrote:
Because in the codex he was introduced in, Mat Ward assured us that there are three types of Space Marines: Ultramarines, those that wish they were Ultramarines, and those that are genetic deviants that should be disregarded in that tome. The ones in the second type include founding legions that aren't deviants. THAT is why. Because Ward's sun rises and sets around the Ultramarines, and nobody saw fit to correct that issue.

People still parrot that laughable 4chan nonsense?

Every single word above is comically wrong, seeing he introduced way to make all troop bike armies to appease WS players, added ton of techmarine/master of the forge types for IH players, gave ever other 1st founding legion special character with tons of unique rules and wargear, THEN allowed for Ultramarine characters to be taken in other chapters with zero downsides, except for replacing UM tactic with the one of your preferred legion. No other SM codex ever had this much thought put into it when it came to building fluffy armies.

It's 2019, and people who still say that inane nonsense either never read 5th edition SM codex, or were incapable of actually understanding what was written in it
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Irbis wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
Besides, I fail to see how making, say, Longstrike into a generic tank commander would be a balance issue.

Because then you'd be seeing commander "smashstrike" (read - pick busted combo of traits buffing his primary task to the exclusion of everything else) exactly as often, except he will be far more OP and annoying to face than a special character who can be made fluffy or balanced much more easily. See BA smash captain of 8th edition, IH smashbiker of 7th, or Custode murderhobo of HH. Last one being so broken garbage he could solo primarchs with ease. In what world is that an improvement or in any way preferable over characterful characters?


Then why aren't Guard Tank Commanders OP broken cheese spamming broken trait combos and one shotting Primarchs? Oh, maybe smash captains et al. are an outlier and are not representative of the majority of generic characters. Much like how Castellans are not representative of all LoW.

Plus the only traits that benefit a hammerhead would be:
- reroll ones to wound against vehicles (which is what longstrike has already) so moot
- reroll hit rolls within 12" (longstrike hits on 2s so that's reroll ones basically)
- advance and shoot (just makes him faster sometimes)
- if you make a hit roll of 6, add 1 to that wound roll (unreliable)

So pick one.
Oh and a relic to make him harder to be hit. (there's no offensive relic for hammerheads, unless you count the destabilser, but you could put that on a fireblade to have the same effect)

So again, I fail to see the balance issue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 23:24:09


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Are people still saying the Iron Hands Chapter Master builds were broken? LOL they were just a good tool in the world where you could get Gladius, which was actually broken.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User





My take:

Special Characters should be "here's X build of a regular Character but slightly better at this one specific thing".

i.e. the commonly quoted example of "Calgar is a Chapter Master with really awesome gauntlets" versus taking a Chapter Master with regular Gauntlets that gets pretty close. As opposed to now where "Calgar is a Chapter Master with really awesome gauntlets, takes half damage, has Toughness 5 and gives you extra Command Points".

I think the current Eldrad Ulthran is actually a better example of what makes a good special character. Compared to a regular Farseer, he gets a lot of buffs. But he's actually a little more expensive than a Jetbike Farseer, and from there things start to make sense. As the pre-eminent Psyker, he knows and can cast 3 powers as opposed to 2. He gets a special rule where if you successfully cast a power, you get +1 to your next cast roll. He gets a special melee weapon that is more of a side-grade than anything. And he gets a 3++ as opposed to a 4++. For these bonuses he loses; FLY, 9" of movement, a 6" auto-advance rule, a twin-linked Shuriken Cannon and access to a 12" S9 gun.

So he has a better invulnerable save and better Psychic ability at the cost of mobility and shooting power. As well as a side-grade melee weapon. Whilst costing more. He does not provide enough of a buff over a regular Farseer to be a must-take, but he is viable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/06 04:29:52


 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 Irbis wrote:

He is nerfed because GK writer after Ward was seriously incompetent, though. In 5th edition, he was interesting sidegrade, which, while not all that powerful, was taken by people who wanted to take GK army in slightly different direction. I feel people who don't like special characters never saw what was possible with them in 5th edition.
:


won't deny that, the GK codex after 5th have all been phoned in visionless crap heaps

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/06 04:46:00


Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

You have relics to make custom characters with special attributes and effects.

In fact custom characters are overall more popular. Nothing needs to be changed.

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Iowa

 Ishagu wrote:
You have relics to make custom characters with special attributes and effects.

In fact custom characters are overall more popular. Nothing needs to be changed.

Why can’t I make my own relics?

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in gb
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot





Holy Terra

You can. In open/narrative play!

-~Ishagu~- 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ishagu wrote:
You can literally do these things in fun narrative games but they have no place in matched play.

Nothing stopping any of you from playing narrative to your heart's content!

Now if only matched play was the way people played the game. It is a bit like telling someone who is poor and/or unhealthy, to stop being poor&unhealthy, so they aren't poor&unhealthy.
   
Made in dk
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






Dandelion wrote:
Why aren't Guard Tank Commanders OP broken cheese spamming broken trait combos and one shotting Primarchs? Oh, maybe smash captains et al. are an outlier and are not representative of the majority of generic characters. Much like how Castellans are not representative of all LoW.

No relics or Stratagems and no personal WL traits that are near anywhere as good as the army-wide or aura WL traits. Tank Commanders did immediately start using the new relic BC and if they had a WL trait that increased the damage of one of their weapons by 1 they might use that, especially if they also had Stratagems that let them shoot twice, re-roll failed hit rolls with another Stratagem etc. etc. The reason Smash Captains became OP was #1 they were too cheap, #2 they could stack buffs. Tank Commanders are already cheap enough to be good, they just need more stacking buffs to become insane. Stacking abilities is extremely dangerous, as we saw when stacking CP regeneration was allowed, suddenly instead of increasing CP by 50% you increase it by 150-200% because you take 2-3 Relics/Traits that generate CP. Look at Bloodletters, Obliterators, Doom/Jinx all of these are better than the sum of their parts because two 50% increases will result in 1,5x1,5=2,25x damage not 1+0,5+0,5=2x damage, that's free damage that you can build into your list by finding the right combos. The CA heroic rules were a bit half-baked and I did start trying to assign pts to all the abilities, but it'd be a huge mess and require hundreds of competitive games before it became balanced. GW would have to lower balance for at least 3 months in the competitive scene to make somewhat balanced costs for these buffs and another 6-24 months to get rid of the last OP combos within such a system. At worst we could see the game turning into 100% Character hammer which probably means another round of Castellan domination because someone thinks that +1 damage to one shooting weapon is worth 5 pts.
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison




Bristol

 Ishagu wrote:
You have relics to make custom characters with special attributes and effects.

In fact custom characters are overall more popular. Nothing needs to be changed.


Then why are relics limited by subfactions within the codex?

Why can my Vior'la Tau not get the JSJ relic? Or the improved Plasma Rifle?

If relics are the means to make generic characters with special abilities then why are there rules which reduce their availability to generic HQs?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/06 07:29:12


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in dk
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Ishagu wrote:
You have relics to make custom characters with special attributes and effects.

In fact custom characters are overall more popular. Nothing needs to be changed.


Then why are relics limited by subfactions within the codex?

Why can my Vior'la Tau not get the JSJ relic? Or the improved Plasma Rifle?

If relics are the means to make generic characters with special abilities then why are there rules which reduce their availability to generic HQs?

To give flavour to the individual factions. Like why do you only get certain buffs in melee or shooting? Because it gives flavour.
   
Made in gb
Instigating Incubi




The dark behind the eyes.

Ikol wrote:
My take:

Special Characters should be "here's X build of a regular Character but slightly better at this one specific thing".


If you go that route then how about actually making them worse at something else? e.g. Urien has a better aura than regular haemonculi but is irredeemably awful in melee.

But instead it seems people want special characters to just be better at everything.


Ikol wrote:
i.e. the commonly quoted example of "Calgar is a Chapter Master with really awesome gauntlets" versus taking a Chapter Master with regular Gauntlets that gets pretty close. As opposed to now where "Calgar is a Chapter Master with really awesome gauntlets, takes half damage, has Toughness 5 and gives you extra Command Points".


My point exactly.


Ikol wrote:

I think the current Eldrad Ulthran is actually a better example of what makes a good special character. Compared to a regular Farseer, he gets a lot of buffs. But he's actually a little more expensive than a Jetbike Farseer, and from there things start to make sense. As the pre-eminent Psyker, he knows and can cast 3 powers as opposed to 2. He gets a special rule where if you successfully cast a power, you get +1 to your next cast roll. He gets a special melee weapon that is more of a side-grade than anything. And he gets a 3++ as opposed to a 4++. For these bonuses he loses; FLY, 9" of movement, a 6" auto-advance rule, a twin-linked Shuriken Cannon and access to a 12" S9 gun.

So he has a better invulnerable save and better Psychic ability at the cost of mobility and shooting power. As well as a side-grade melee weapon. Whilst costing more. He does not provide enough of a buff over a regular Farseer to be a must-take, but he is viable.


The problem with your example is that you've basically written off the non-Jetbike Farseer entirely. The fact that Jetbike Farseers exist doesn't excuse Eldrad being orders of magnitude better than foot-Farseers.


 Ishagu wrote:
In fact custom characters are overall more popular.


So why does GW keep crapping all over them?


 Ishagu wrote:
Nothing needs to be changed.


I wish GW had taken that view back when characters still had options.

Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"



 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






It sounds like what we need is a return to the older ways, but perhaps with an injection of the new to compensate.

I'm thinking along the lines of the Ogre Kingdoms book, which has tyrants which can pick a Big Name (and pay the points) and any wargear (all totalling 100 points).

Then add in the CP business, where your character can pay 1CP to take a second name.

Names would be the abilities, and wargear is, obviously, the fancy wargear. All of them would cost points.

the "pay 1 CP for another name" would mitigate the points limit - IE if you have a character which is allowed 30pts of names & wargear, they can take a 50pt name for 1CP and 50pts, in addition to their 30pts already.

Special characters would then have their own names, which would be unique - EG you couldn't build a ghazkull, because he would have "da biggest boss there ever woz" rule which, obviously, only he can have. you might have names like:

Arch Arsonist (all units in 3" treat burnas and skorchas as having 10" range)
Mekaniak (always repair 3 wounds on vehicles, mek only)
'Ead 'Unter (gain 1VP for each character this model kills in CC)

and so on.

This allows for special characters to be built, for your army, but maintains a place for the pre-made special characters which feature in the army lore.

Provided the right combos are limited (EG if 2 guns work well together, to become OP, limit to one gun) and the points are balanced, this could work fine. It would be cool to allow all characters a minimum of 10pts to spend on names etc.

Orks in 8th, W/D/L
5/0/1 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison




Bristol

 vict0988 wrote:

To give flavour to the individual factions. Like why do you only get certain buffs in melee or shooting? Because it gives flavour.


But it doesn't really do that, does it? What flavour is given to the T'au sept (as in the whole sept) by having a single commander able to JSJ, an ability which in all previous editions of the game the Tau appeared in they could do innately? Has everyone but a single Commander in the T'au sept forgotten how to use their jetpacks in a method which is explicitly described in the lore as a standard tactic?

Flavour for subfactions should be in the subfaction rules, not in relics which are just granting special abilities which often don't even make sense to be faction specific.

For instance, Bor'kan gets a special plasma rifle because their sept is great at making stuff. Okay, then why does Vior'la get a fancy flamer? Why does the superior craftmanship of the Bor'kan sept mean they can make better plasma rifles but not flamers? And why does Farsight, from Vior'la, have an improved plasma rifle?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/06 10:26:26


The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal





 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:

To give flavour to the individual factions. Like why do you only get certain buffs in melee or shooting? Because it gives flavour.


But it doesn't really do that, does it? What flavour is given to the T'au sept (as in the whole sept) by having a single commander able to JSJ, an ability which in all previous editions of the game the Tau appeared in they could do innately? Has everyone but a single Commander in the T'au sept forgotten how to use their jetpacks in a method which is explicitly described in the lore as a standard tactic?

Flavour for subfactions should be in the subfaction rules, not in relics which are just granting special abilities which often don't even make sense to be faction specific.

For instance, Bor'kan gets a special plasma rifle because their sept is great at making stuff. Okay, then why does Vior'la get a fancy flamer? Why does the superior craftmanship of the Bor'kan sept mean they can make better plasma rifles but not flamers? And why does Farsight, from Vior'la, have an improved plasma rifle?


There are also cases where the rules make the artefacts seem almost contradictory.

For example, the Drukhari Kabal of the Poisoned Tongue specialises in two things - melee and poison (getting to reroll 1s to wound in both).

With that in mind, there are 3 weapons that stand out:
- The Djin Blade (a melee Artefact any Archon can take)
- The Parasite's Kiss (a pistol Artefact any character can take)
- The Soul Seeker (a pistol Artefact unique to Poison Tongue Archons)

Now, it could be argued that the third artefact is the most appropriate, since its the one unique to their subfaction, but all three of the above are based around melee or poison.

Hence, from a flavour perspective, it would seem logical to pick one of the above on a Poison Tongue Archon. You might be wondering then what the problem is.

The problem is that the rerolls from Poison Tongue don't work on artefacts. Hence, if you actually take an appropriate artefact, you're literally no better than an Archon from any other faction would be with the same artefact. Possibly even worse, given that other subfactions have better Warlord Traits for melee. What's more, not only does the Poison Tongue bonus not work with the 2 generic artefacts, it doesn't even work with its own unique artefact.

I suppose what bothers me more than anything is that it would be such a minor bonus anyway. Rerolling 1s to wound with a S4 melee weapon. Wow. All those Imperial Knights don't stand a chance now.
   
Made in dk
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot







Look guys, I did not write these codices, there is a thread in the Proposed Rules section for Tau but we still need one for Drukhari arguing about changes we want for Relics, WL traits and Stratagems, these threads discuss both balance and flavour and I think it's interesting to discuss. In this case, I really just want to say the writers of these two codices made poopy decisions with some of the relics. Not that the whole system of locking certain choices to certain sub-factions is inherently a bad idea due to the writers not getting things right. The Craftworld codex is especially bad in terms of the wrong kind of flavour being given to factions. I suppose unlocking things does remove all these small oopsies, but Necrons do have some thematic locks, like Imotekh the Phaeron of Sautekh likes to scare the pants of his enemies and the Sautekh relic lets one of your characters do just that. Or Nephrekh being obsessed with stars so their weapon is a staff of light that blinds people. I could probably change my mind if GW said it's the current rules never changing or removing the locks tomorrow, but I really do hope they fix and balance these issues of balance and theme rather than just ignore it/wipe away their attempt at tying rules and theme.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/06 11:36:31


 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Striking Scorpion





Midlands, UK

I'm another who generally prefers generic characters, for a couple of reasons. As others have said, it makes the universe seem a much smaller place if the same named characters show up all the time. Also in a hobby that's all about "my guys", I'd rather use my own characters rather than the ones that the GW writers have defined.

So, given I prefer not to use named characters, I'd rather they didn't do anything too unique, that you can't do with a regular character. One that springs to mind is 7th edition Vulkan He'Stan. I've got a Salamanders army, and I wanted them to be more effective with flamers and meltas than other space marine armies because that's fluffy for them. But for some reason, they forget their melta skills when the Forgefather isn't there? That irked me, and it's the sort of named character design I prefer to avoid.That should have been an inherent trait of the subfaction, not something granted by a named character.

I don't think we're going to get generic HQs anywhere near as customisable as they used to be so long as GW continue on this no model no rules direction. But as long as the rules don't force me to take a named character to gain some benefit that my faction should have inherently, I'll be content.

Regarding some of the other discussions going on here - I find any and all "pay CP to upgrade to chapter master" type things to be silly and I'd much rather they cost points. I thought CP were supposed to be a sign of how well led the army is, and that makes sense when you've got named characters like Calgar generating CP. So why then do the chapter masters of the Doom Eagles, Excoriators and Novamarines cost their armies CP instead? It makes no sense.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 Bellerophon wrote:
I'm another who generally prefers generic characters, for a couple of reasons. As others have said, it makes the universe seem a much smaller place if the same named characters show up all the time. Also in a hobby that's all about "my guys", I'd rather use my own characters rather than the ones that the GW writers have defined.


This is a thing I totally don't get. In 5th edition basically every codex had a blurb about how Thrakka/Calgar couldn't be everywhere, so you could just create your own character and use their rules for them. My Thrakka used to be "Da Old Boss" - an old, grumpy Blood Axe warboss with failing memory that gave non-sense targets to attack to the amusement of his warband. His leftennants were Dakkan Laughs-All-The-Time (Biker Warboss) and Mekboss Fiesmek (KFF Mek).

Sadly 8th locked Thrakka into Goff and thus forced him to retire.

People field smurfs, ponys and hello kitties as ultramarines, but somehow no one manages to put his own name on a Chronus painted in black and orange.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/06 12:48:01


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User





 vipoid wrote:
Ikol wrote:
My take:

Special Characters should be "here's X build of a regular Character but slightly better at this one specific thing".


If you go that route then how about actually making them worse at something else? e.g. Urien has a better aura than regular haemonculi but is irredeemably awful in melee.

But instead it seems people want special characters to just be better at everything.


Ikol wrote:
i.e. the commonly quoted example of "Calgar is a Chapter Master with really awesome gauntlets" versus taking a Chapter Master with regular Gauntlets that gets pretty close. As opposed to now where "Calgar is a Chapter Master with really awesome gauntlets, takes half damage, has Toughness 5 and gives you extra Command Points".


My point exactly.


We seem to agree on these points here, so that's nice.

 vipoid wrote:

Ikol wrote:

I think the current Eldrad Ulthran is actually a better example of what makes a good special character. Compared to a regular Farseer, he gets a lot of buffs. But he's actually a little more expensive than a Jetbike Farseer, and from there things start to make sense. As the pre-eminent Psyker, he knows and can cast 3 powers as opposed to 2. He gets a special rule where if you successfully cast a power, you get +1 to your next cast roll. He gets a special melee weapon that is more of a side-grade than anything. And he gets a 3++ as opposed to a 4++. For these bonuses he loses; FLY, 9" of movement, a 6" auto-advance rule, a twin-linked Shuriken Cannon and access to a 12" S9 gun.

So he has a better invulnerable save and better Psychic ability at the cost of mobility and shooting power. As well as a side-grade melee weapon. Whilst costing more. He does not provide enough of a buff over a regular Farseer to be a must-take, but he is viable.


The problem with your example is that you've basically written off the non-Jetbike Farseer entirely. The fact that Jetbike Farseers exist doesn't excuse Eldrad being orders of magnitude better than foot-Farseers.


The non-Jetbike Farseer is 110 points, 115 with Singing Spear.
The Jetbike Farseer is 135 points, 140 with Singing Spear.
Eldrad is 135 points.

Those 25 points buy Eldrad / the Bike-seer the durability. As well as the Bike-seer's mobility whilst Eldrad gets slightly better psyking.

Upgrading an Ulthwe Farseer to Eldrad costs the same as upgrading any Farseer to a Bike-seer. You just get different buffs for that cost.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Ikol wrote:

The non-Jetbike Farseer is 110 points, 115 with Singing Spear.
The Jetbike Farseer is 135 points, 140 with Singing Spear.
Eldrad is 135 points.

Those 25 points buy Eldrad / the Bike-seer the durability. As well as the Bike-seer's mobility whilst Eldrad gets slightly better psyking.

Upgrading an Ulthwe Farseer to Eldrad costs the same as upgrading any Farseer to a Bike-seer. You just get different buffs for that cost.

The bike upgrade is too cheap. Mobility options for characters almost always are.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
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 Crimson wrote:

The bike upgrade is too cheap. Mobility options for characters almost always are.


Well it used to be 35 points to take the bike, but then the cost of a base Farseer got lifted by 10 and the bike version didn't get touched.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Ikol wrote:
 Crimson wrote:

The bike upgrade is too cheap. Mobility options for characters almost always are.

Well it used to be 35 points to take the bike, but then the cost of a base Farseer got lifted by 10 and the bike version didn't get touched.

I know. That was stupid.


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Irked Necron Immortal





Ikol wrote:

The non-Jetbike Farseer is 110 points, 115 with Singing Spear.
The Jetbike Farseer is 135 points, 140 with Singing Spear.
Eldrad is 135 points.

Those 25 points buy Eldrad / the Bike-seer the durability.


And if it was *just* durability, then Eldrad would be fine. The issue is that it also buys him an entire extra power, an extra cast each turn and a casting bonus for each power he's successfully manifested. He even has a better melee weapon thrown in as a bonus.

It's a massive bonus over the foot Farseer at a tiny cost.


Ikol wrote:

Upgrading an Ulthwe Farseer to Eldrad costs the same as upgrading any Farseer to a Bike-seer. You just get different buffs for that cost.


But you're basically just comparing to the Jetbike Farseer.

Even if the Jetbike Farseer was removed, Eldrad gets so much over a regular Farseer as to be an auto-include. If nothing else he's getting 50% more casts each turn for less than a 20% increase in cost.


 Crimson wrote:
The bike upgrade is too cheap. Mobility options for characters almost always are.


This is also true.

That being said, I think part of the problem is that many mobility options - particularly bikes - also grant extra durability. In addition to being vastly more mobile (which is probably worth 25pts just by itself), Jetbike Farseers also get +1T and +1W.

You'd think that perhaps speed would require some sort of trade-off, but instead fast models get to have their cake and eat it.

I think it's a real issue when it comes to armies like Space Marines, as automatic invulnerable saves combined with the extra durability of bikes makes stuff like Terminator Armour virtually pointless. Why bother when Bikes get you near enough the same thing whilst more than doubling your speed?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/06 14:16:01


 
   
Made in de
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Coming from lotr I was always surprised how few characters there are in 40K. If anything I'd say keep them special, they should give the army something unique you can't do with a generic character. HOWEVER with the subfactions in 8th it'd be cool to have some kind of additional special rule for subfaction characters that don't have a named character (with a model). I know, there's the warlord trait already, but named characters have that AND something else. So basically, as long as there's not a named character for every subfaction give the factions that don't have one the ability to make one out of their generic chars.
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
Why aren't Guard Tank Commanders OP broken cheese spamming broken trait combos and one shotting Primarchs? Oh, maybe smash captains et al. are an outlier and are not representative of the majority of generic characters. Much like how Castellans are not representative of all LoW.

No relics or Stratagems and no personal WL traits that are near anywhere as good as the army-wide or aura WL traits. Tank Commanders did immediately start using the new relic BC and if they had a WL trait that increased the damage of one of their weapons by 1 they might use that, especially if they also had Stratagems that let them shoot twice, re-roll failed hit rolls with another Stratagem etc. etc. The reason Smash Captains became OP was #1 they were too cheap, #2 they could stack buffs. Tank Commanders are already cheap enough to be good, they just need more stacking buffs to become insane. Stacking abilities is extremely dangerous, as we saw when stacking CP regeneration was allowed, suddenly instead of increasing CP by 50% you increase it by 150-200% because you take 2-3 Relics/Traits that generate CP. Look at Bloodletters, Obliterators, Doom/Jinx all of these are better than the sum of their parts because two 50% increases will result in 1,5x1,5=2,25x damage not 1+0,5+0,5=2x damage, that's free damage that you can build into your list by finding the right combos. The CA heroic rules were a bit half-baked and I did start trying to assign pts to all the abilities, but it'd be a huge mess and require hundreds of competitive games before it became balanced. GW would have to lower balance for at least 3 months in the competitive scene to make somewhat balanced costs for these buffs and another 6-24 months to get rid of the last OP combos within such a system. At worst we could see the game turning into 100% Character hammer which probably means another round of Castellan domination because someone thinks that +1 damage to one shooting weapon is worth 5 pts.



All you've proven is that new units can be broken if they're not balanced in the context of their codex. Congratulations, water is wet and the sky is blue. And guess what, in the context of Tau there are no relics/traits that could possibly make them OP (seriously, they all are designed to buff the suit commanders), so the point is moot until the codex gets an update.
   
Made in dk
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






Dandelion wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
Why aren't Guard Tank Commanders OP broken cheese spamming broken trait combos and one shotting Primarchs? Oh, maybe smash captains et al. are an outlier and are not representative of the majority of generic characters. Much like how Castellans are not representative of all LoW.

No relics or Stratagems and no personal WL traits that are near anywhere as good as the army-wide or aura WL traits. Tank Commanders did immediately start using the new relic BC and if they had a WL trait that increased the damage of one of their weapons by 1 they might use that, especially if they also had Stratagems that let them shoot twice, re-roll failed hit rolls with another Stratagem etc. etc. The reason Smash Captains became OP was #1 they were too cheap, #2 they could stack buffs. Tank Commanders are already cheap enough to be good, they just need more stacking buffs to become insane. Stacking abilities is extremely dangerous, as we saw when stacking CP regeneration was allowed, suddenly instead of increasing CP by 50% you increase it by 150-200% because you take 2-3 Relics/Traits that generate CP. Look at Bloodletters, Obliterators, Doom/Jinx all of these are better than the sum of their parts because two 50% increases will result in 1,5x1,5=2,25x damage not 1+0,5+0,5=2x damage, that's free damage that you can build into your list by finding the right combos. The CA heroic rules were a bit half-baked and I did start trying to assign pts to all the abilities, but it'd be a huge mess and require hundreds of competitive games before it became balanced. GW would have to lower balance for at least 3 months in the competitive scene to make somewhat balanced costs for these buffs and another 6-24 months to get rid of the last OP combos within such a system. At worst we could see the game turning into 100% Character hammer which probably means another round of Castellan domination because someone thinks that +1 damage to one shooting weapon is worth 5 pts.



All you've proven is that new units can be broken if they're not balanced in the context of their codex. Congratulations, water is wet and the sky is blue. And guess what, in the context of Tau there are no relics/traits that could possibly make them OP (seriously, they all are designed to buff the suit commanders), so the point is moot until the codex gets an update.

Did you even read it? It has nothing to do with the base unit, it might be perfectly fair and balanced, but if you stack enough buffs that are anything but completely trash on top of a unit, that unit will one-shot Primarchs. So if you add re-roll hit rolls of 1, +1 to wound and +1 D on top of a Tank Commander for prices that might individually be fair enough, then that all told will become OP, because the buffs will total more than the sum of their parts. The re-roll 1s to hit will mean more wound rolls, then those extra wound rolls will have an easier time wounding and all the extra hits and extra wounds will do more damage. Either the abilities are useless on their own and balanced when taken together or they are OP when taken together. You can't just have infinite possibilities without also creating infinitely many OP combos. The larger the number of combos, the larger the number of broken combos. Saying that there are no buffs that could become OP for Commanders seems uninformed, Commanders are already OP, giving them builds that are even more OP is a bad idea.
   
 
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