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Not Online!!! wrote:
Bs, chainsword for free, atsknf should have a price.

And DttFE shouldn't?

As an Ork player, I'll just say that if you don't want 11ppm CSMs, I'll be happy to take that pricetag and stat line off your hands and slap it on my Nobz. :p

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
55 points compared to 50 is pretty much nothing. ESP if you are getting +3 CP for that detachment. They survive better - and they also shoot better if stationary. Also getting benefit from traits. If Alpha legion (seems to be another good choice) they are MUCH more survivable than cultists.

RC is the *only* situation where that math works, and that assumes the rumor about cultists going back to 4ppm is false, which, if true, shoots that whole theory in the foot.

I don't believe the rumor. It's a win win ether way though. My black legion will be really happy with 50 points being saved on cultists.

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM should be better bezerkers.

The Blood Angels preview disagrees with you.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/blood-of-baal-chapter-focus-the-blood-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Fingers crossed that Terminators of all stripes get another reduction and Aggressors get bumped up. Assault Centurions are too cheap now as well, and I can't believe I'm saying that.

The base-line Predator has no business being more expensive than a Vindicator.

Reivers ... really can't come down in price any, and price isn't their problem in the first place. Being a troop profile in the Elite slot with no weapon upgrades to make them worth using is their problem.

The Leman Russ Demolisher needs a bump. I don't begrudge them the updated Demo Cannon so much, but double-tapping with that gun for less than a regular Russ is barking insanity.

All of the Daemon troop choices are over-priced.

The basic Custodian Guard and Wardens are over-priced. So is the Contemptor dread.

Min assualt cent squad is comparable in cost to a redemptor dread.
They move half as fast.
They have less range
Less wounds
Less toughness

A +1 save
Way more attacks
Way more total shots of less quality.

They are perfectly balanced when you compare them to a redemptor. Know what they aren't auto include when they can't deep strike into opponents face? Because you will NEVER use their CC stats without spamming the unit. Assault cents are just too slow to use. It is the stratagems and warlord traits that make them broken - so remove those.

Dev cents are actually overcosted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
So basically gw is just saying that csm are inferior to loyalist marines? The fact that they're cheaper means gw has no plans on giving them better rules in comparison to loyalists.

So there you go. Fought in the hh. Survived 10000 years in the eye of terror. Not as good as thin blooded 20 umpteenth founding loyalists.

It's even worse when you look at the new ba rules coming in pa3. Gw has a definite bias.

CSM have been driven mad with hatred and daemonic influences. It certainly decreases their abilities compared fresh marines who are much better supplied and stoic and can control themselves better. Something I'd like to see is the ability to take a chainsword for 1 point on their standard bolter CSM in addition. This way wed have them costing the same with the SM unit shooting better (on turn 2 maybe) and the CSM assaulting better (on turn 2 maybe). Would be perfectly fair.

Oh give me a fething break. Crazier than death company? You're average flesh tearer? Carcharadons?

Even the purer legions like night lords or alpha legion?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Bs, chainsword for free, atsknf should have a price.

What he said.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Pb are overpriced?

I retract that assertion. They cost too much as min squads paying the troop tax, but I get the distinct impression that's not really what you should be doing with them.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Bs, chainsword for free, atsknf should have a price.

And DttFE shouldn't?

Not really. It's a bad rule overall. GENERIC explosion on a 6 is worth something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Spiky 17 went down 30 points. That is a big deal. Or basically you get free autocannons on all your 5 man marine units.

Again, you're better served by Cultists so you can get weapons and units that actually kill stuff.

55 points compared to 50 is pretty much nothing. ESP if you are getting +3 CP for that detachment. They survive better - and they also shoot better if stationary. Also getting benefit from traits. If Alpha legion (seems to be another good choice) they are MUCH more survivable than cultists.

Only as Red Corsairs, which get no benefits of being a Legion.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If you're setting on an objective wouldn't it be better to be T4 2+ and LD8 over T3 5+ and LD6?

You're not counting on their durability, you're counting on forcing your opponent to focus on other things. If they want your obsec dead, the difference in effort to remove Cultists vs Marines is negligible.

No, it is not negligible. If a repulsor rattles off all it's secondary and tertiary weapons (pod, icarus, 2 ihs, thb, hogc, 2 sb, 2 frag) at CSM in cover it kills 4.7 (so @ 18"). If it does the same to cultists in cover it kills 14.5, which is enough to kill two units with morale or to wipe a bigger unit.

So, of course, if we're looking at a singular scenario of whether or not a unit holds an objective and ignore the rest of the battle field then, yes, both these units die. But the nuance is that the CSM actually have a chance on the bell curve to survive and the cultists have none and, should the SM player be plucky, could wipe multiple cultist units.

The number of shots available in an army are finite. If that Repulsor does not direct all of the listed weapons at the CSM they have an even greater chance to survive. The cultists do not. In fact the HOGC and 2 IHS are enough to clear a 10 man of cultists assuming they're not willing to spend 2 CP on sticking, but then your exposure is super limited, because almost any gun can tackle straggling cultists where the same is not really true for CSM.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Regarding the Daemon Prince decrease, I certainly hope this applies to ALL datasheets of Daemon Princes whether CSM, Tson or DG. The precedent was set in the last FAQ that these 3 are all the same Datasheet for the purposes of the Ro3.

It would be counter to that FAQ to give each a different points cost if they are "all the same datasheet"

They aren't and certainly DG and ts ones don't need it compared to the others.

Whether DG/Tsons need the decrease compared to the CSM DP or not is irrelevant. They can't be the same, yet pay different points.
The addition of Faction traits, relics, Psychic powers, etc is what makes them fit into their respective Codices, and are basically just added on to the existing model.
It's no different than taking an UM Captain and a Salamander Captain in the same list. The both play differently due to their Chapters, but they are both Captains

To give them different costs should also mean they are treated as different datasheets in ALL respects, included Ro3.

-

 Galef wrote:

To give them different costs should also mean they are treated as different datasheets in ALL respects, included Ro3.

-

Rule of 3 has no fixed wording. It's not a hard-and-fast rule. It's an event-recommendation that TOs are explicitly encouraged to adapt and tinker with as they see fit. Whether different points (or even the current status-quo) would mean DPs are limited to 3 or 3 per Codex is ultimately still up to each individual TO (assuming they even adopt GW's event recommendations mostly unchanged).

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM should be better bezerkers.

The Blood Angels preview disagrees with you.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/blood-of-baal-chapter-focus-the-blood-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/

Good lord...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Bs, chainsword for free, atsknf should have a price.

And DttFE shouldn't?

Yes, because dttfe is useless against most factions AND A MELEE ONLY ABILITY.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Pb are overpriced?

I retract that assertion. They cost too much as min squads paying the troop tax, but I get the distinct impression that's not really what you should be doing with them.

yeah That i agree on

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Only as Red Corsairs, which get no benefits of being a Legion.

Also requires giving up the single best stratagem Chaos has.

DG/Tsons not needing the decrease is the point.

Points serve as a balancing tool. If unit A cost 100 points and does X, unit B shouldn't cost 100 points and do X+Y+Z regardless what the name of unit B is.

If your beef is with the rule of 3 and it's application to demon prices that's another can of worms but points cost needs to be at least tangentially related to on table abilities/effectiveness.

I'd love for marine units to have different point values. RG assault cents cost 80, WS 70 oh ultras you get them for 55. With the power of the new doctrines, chapter tactics and strats GW is throwing around now a days it seems to be the only way to balance units that have wildly different effective strength based on the buffs they can combo.

The gulliman tax on marines is the same thing but in this case it is even harder to balance because there is no gulliman model to nerf to at least try to balance this out.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
It's a 20% reduction. That's pretty huge. 15 points for a marine with a force weapon and a +1 cast / +1 deny (and then +2 for SB). Then add whatever they get in PA.

'But the ship has already hit the Space Marine iceberg sir!'

This. We've already torn a hole through 4 watertight compartments with the Space Marine supplements.

That said, nothing says we can't keep the pumps going to try to keep buoyancy for a little longer. I'll welcome a strike squad cost reduction.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 Galef wrote:

To give them different costs should also mean they are treated as different datasheets in ALL respects, included Ro3.

-

Rule of 3 has no fixed wording. It's not a hard-and-fast rule. It's an event-recommendation that TOs are explicitly encouraged to adapt and tinker with as they see fit. Whether different points (or even the current status-quo) would mean DPs are limited to 3 or 3 per Codex is ultimately still up to each individual TO (assuming they even adopt GW's event recommendations mostly unchanged).

I am specifically referring to the FAQ the calls out CSM/DG/Tsons DPs specifically. It doesn't matter what codex they are from, if using the Ro#, you can only even have 3 DPs period.
If that is how GW wants it, fine, but they should not then give each a different points cost.

Basically what I am says is one of 2 things need to happen:
A) All DPs get dropped in point via CA or
B) Only CSMs get dropped in points, but the above FAQ be likewise revoked

But want is more likely to happen and continue the inconsistency is:
C) Only CSM DP get a points drop, but the FAQ stands

bananathug wrote:
DG/Tsons not needing the decrease is the point.

Points serve as a balancing tool. If unit A cost 100 points and does X, unit B shouldn't cost 100 points and do X+Y+Z regardless what the name of unit B is.

If your beef is with the rule of 3 and it's application to demon prices that's another can of worms but points cost needs to be at least tangentially related to on table abilities/effectiveness.

I agree, but my "beef" isn't with Ro3 or CA in particular, but with inconsistency as a whole. The DP specific Ro3 treats DPs of any color as the same datasheet. CA should too, or both Ro3 and CA should treat them as different

-

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM should be better bezerkers.

The Blood Angels preview disagrees with you.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/blood-of-baal-chapter-focus-the-blood-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/

Good lord...

Don't worry. I'm sure the tyranids "half" (probably more like 25%) of the book will be just as good.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Fingers crossed that Terminators of all stripes get another reduction and Aggressors get bumped up. Assault Centurions are too cheap now as well, and I can't believe I'm saying that.

The base-line Predator has no business being more expensive than a Vindicator.

Reivers ... really can't come down in price any, and price isn't their problem in the first place. Being a troop profile in the Elite slot with no weapon upgrades to make them worth using is their problem.

The Leman Russ Demolisher needs a bump. I don't begrudge them the updated Demo Cannon so much, but double-tapping with that gun for less than a regular Russ is barking insanity.

All of the Daemon troop choices are over-priced.

The basic Custodian Guard and Wardens are over-priced. So is the Contemptor dread.

Min assualt cent squad is comparable in cost to a redemptor dread.
They move half as fast.
They have less range
Less wounds
Less toughness

A +1 save
Way more attacks
Way more total shots of less quality.

They are perfectly balanced when you compare them to a redemptor. Know what they aren't auto include when they can't deep strike into opponents face? Because you will NEVER use their CC stats without spamming the unit. Assault cents are just too slow to use. It is the stratagems and warlord traits that make them broken - so remove those.

Dev cents are actually overcosted.

1) Did I mention Centurion Devastators? [/any character played by Samuel Jackson ever]

2) The Redemptor is an interesting comparison. I think you're evaluating it wrong, but it's interesting. Removing those Strats / Traits isn't going to happen in CA though.

The Newman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Fingers crossed that Terminators of all stripes get another reduction and Aggressors get bumped up. Assault Centurions are too cheap now as well, and I can't believe I'm saying that.

The base-line Predator has no business being more expensive than a Vindicator.

Reivers ... really can't come down in price any, and price isn't their problem in the first place. Being a troop profile in the Elite slot with no weapon upgrades to make them worth using is their problem.

The Leman Russ Demolisher needs a bump. I don't begrudge them the updated Demo Cannon so much, but double-tapping with that gun for less than a regular Russ is barking insanity.

All of the Daemon troop choices are over-priced.

The basic Custodian Guard and Wardens are over-priced. So is the Contemptor dread.

Min assualt cent squad is comparable in cost to a redemptor dread.
They move half as fast.
They have less range
Less wounds
Less toughness

A +1 save
Way more attacks
Way more total shots of less quality.

They are perfectly balanced when you compare them to a redemptor. Know what they aren't auto include when they can't deep strike into opponents face? Because you will NEVER use their CC stats without spamming the unit. Assault cents are just too slow to use. It is the stratagems and warlord traits that make them broken - so remove those.

Dev cents are actually overcosted.

1) Did I mention Centurion Devastators? [/any character played by Samuel Jackson ever]

2) The Redemptor is an interesting comparison. I think you're evaluating it wrong, but it's interesting. Removing those Strats / Traits isn't going to happen in CA though.

They really are comparable. Both offensively and defensively. Cents just have a lot more damage up close but with no practical way of getting there. UNLESS - you magically teleport them there with sneaky stratagems/WL traits that shouldn't exist. Straight up. Remove those strats or prevent cents from using them. Assault cents just got dropped in points. They were unplayable before. They will still be played even with a points hike if you can teleport them turn 1 for the cost of free.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM should be better bezerkers.

The Blood Angels preview disagrees with you.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/blood-of-baal-chapter-focus-the-blood-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/

Good lord...

Don't worry. I'm sure the tyranids "half" (probably more like 25%) of the book will be just as good.

The trait is slightly better. Nothing to write home about. I'm quite curious how much more expensive DC Intercessors will be and if they'll be allowed to go to 15 models. The doctrine is good, but turn 3. If they have a strat to get it early it will be quite scary.

They don't have Cents or 11" flamers so that's good, I guess. The other upside is BA will probably run a ton of infantry, maybe?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If you're setting on an objective wouldn't it be better to be T4 2+ and LD8 over T3 5+ and LD6?

You're not counting on their durability, you're counting on forcing your opponent to focus on other things. If they want your obsec dead, the difference in effort to remove Cultists vs Marines is negligible.

No, it is not negligible. If a repulsor rattles off all it's secondary and tertiary weapons (pod, icarus, 2 ihs, thb, hogc, 2 sb, 2 frag) at CSM in cover it kills 4.7 (so @ 18"). If it does the same to cultists in cover it kills 14.5, which is enough to kill two units with morale or to wipe a bigger unit.

So, of course, if we're looking at a singular scenario of whether or not a unit holds an objective and ignore the rest of the battle field then, yes, both these units die. But the nuance is that the CSM actually have a chance on the bell curve to survive and the cultists have none and, should the SM player be plucky, could wipe multiple cultist units.

The number of shots available in an army are finite. If that Repulsor does not direct all of the listed weapons at the CSM they have an even greater chance to survive. The cultists do not. In fact the HOGC and 2 IHS are enough to clear a 10 man of cultists assuming they're not willing to spend 2 CP on sticking, but then your exposure is super limited, because almost any gun can tackle straggling cultists where the same is not really true for CSM.

Maybe I'm too late to this conversation, but why are people discussing CSM vs cultists without factoring in the CSM having a heavy weapon? Backfield cultists aren't contributing much. CSM will cost a bit more but can. And Combi weapon + reaper CSM closer up actually do something.

I wonder if we'll see a bunch of BA Suppressors to shut down overwatch.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM should be better bezerkers.

The Blood Angels preview disagrees with you.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/25/blood-of-baal-chapter-focus-the-blood-angelsgw-homepage-post-2/

Good lord...

Don't worry. I'm sure the tyranids "half" (probably more like 25%) of the book will be just as good.

The trait is slightly better. Nothing to write home about. I'm quite curious how much more expensive DC Intercessors will be and if they'll be allowed to go to 15 models. The doctrine is good, but turn 3. If they have a strat to get it early it will be quite scary.

They don't have Cents or 11" flamers so that's good, I guess. The other upside is BA will probably run a ton of infantry, maybe?

my guess is DC intercessors will be a strat

 oni wrote:
I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I suspect that they didn't go far enough with points adjustments similar to CA:2017 and CA:2018.

The Eldar flyers definitely needed a points increase, but I don't think 150 is enough. I'm curious to see if the Wave Serpent is affected. It's wargear needs to be tripled at the very least.

They likely hold back from too wide of a swing entirely because of the lead time.

11 point chaos marines is awesome!

Ork-en Man wrote:
I wonder if we'll see a bunch of BA Suppressors to shut down overwatch.

I wouldn’t be surprised would be a nice combo.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:


Maybe I'm too late to this conversation, but why are people discussing CSM vs cultists without factoring in the CSM having a heavy weapon? Backfield cultists aren't contributing much. CSM will cost a bit more but can. And Combi weapon + reaper CSM closer up actually do something.

Because if the unit cant take all special / heavy weapons then it's trash. Or so the logic goes.

I don't understand why some people are saying that DG and TS shouldn't get price decreases. Maybe PM should be a point or two more expensive than regular CSM, but nothing more, and TS aren't even really a fully formed army.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

More importantly, why are you trying to justify a bad unit just like you did with Warp Talons before? Is it hard to accept some units are just useless and that's the end of it?

LOL, ok.

Let's play a game. Below are two tables. Each has a set of data for one of 3 units (Cultists, CSM, and Bolt Rifle Primaris). No traits or bonuses. These units are all the same total price (5 point cultists, 11 CSM, 17 primaris). Any fractional models are still counted, so 3.2 Primaris would get 3.2 and 6.4 shots respectively. Each mode is a different position within the battlefield (i.e. RF range, moving, etc).

The first table is damage dealt by the unit. Damage dealt numbers have been multiplied by a common factor to prevent backing into the result. Please rank the units A,B, and C as to which you think is best. Please also determine which you think is Cultist, CSM, and Primaris.

The second table is damage received by the unit. Please rank units D, E, and F as to which you think it best. Please also determine which you think is Cultist, CSM, and Primaris.

I'm curious is it the order of: primaris, csm, cultist on the ABC table and then: primaris, cultist, csm on the DEF table?
Also how do you explain how unit A is so much more efficient at killing GEQ?

I fear Daedalus spent a lot of time trying to teach something to a poster that doesn't seem to even play 40k.