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Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





Daemons definitely need to have gunline units. And I don't mean the odd mediocre engine or two, I mean MEQ's and TEQ's; Doom-style daemons that can dish out heavy amounts of firepower. Instead of bolters and lasguns, maybe they could have weapons with the same stats, but are different lore-wise, like guns made of fused human flesh that shoot out rounds of flaming bone or corrupted arrows (like the ones Tzaangors use) or shards of metal forged in the armories beneath Khorne's fortress. These new units could be crafted to complement the old models, so you could have a gun line or daemonic soldiers and tanks raining down fire on the enemy while units of bloodletters and a 'thirster deepstrike from behind.
   
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Dakka Veteran




 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Daemons definitely need to have gunline units. And I don't mean the odd mediocre engine or two, I mean MEQ's and TEQ's; Doom-style daemons that can dish out heavy amounts of firepower. Instead of bolters and lasguns, maybe they could have weapons with the same stats, but are different lore-wise, like guns made of fused human flesh that shoot out rounds of flaming bone or corrupted arrows (like the ones Tzaangors use) or shards of metal forged in the armories beneath Khorne's fortress. These new units could be crafted to complement the old models, so you could have a gun line or daemonic soldiers and tanks raining down fire on the enemy while units of bloodletters and a 'thirster deepstrike from behind.

Do they though? I always thought of Chaos Daemons as a melee army with some (very) light fire support. Even Tzeentch, the shootist of the gods, is primarily melee with fire support IMO. If you want a gunline with your daemons then bring in some Daemon Engines or CSM.

TBH, Soul Grinders are kind of weird for me. They feel like they should belong with CSM rather than Daemons. They are the *only* vehicle in the Daemons codex, and it doesn't help that they share the majority of their kit with defilers.
   
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Daemons are designed to either be used as a unified codex or used alongside a CSM detachment. I don't get the fascination with mono-god, pure daemon armies being viable when they aren't even shown to work that way in the fluff.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




1. The fact that the three Detachment limit in 2000 point games doesn't allow you to do all four gods is stupid. "BuT wHaT aBoUt CaSuAl PlAy" yeah nobody cares. GW can't makes sensible suggestions period.
2. Daemons are a fething uninspired codex much like the Dark Eldar one.
3. Paint some Skullcannons green and run a cheap HQ with the Crown relic for exploding shots when they wound?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler





JakeSiren wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Daemons definitely need to have gunline units. And I don't mean the odd mediocre engine or two, I mean MEQ's and TEQ's; Doom-style daemons that can dish out heavy amounts of firepower. Instead of bolters and lasguns, maybe they could have weapons with the same stats, but are different lore-wise, like guns made of fused human flesh that shoot out rounds of flaming bone or corrupted arrows (like the ones Tzaangors use) or shards of metal forged in the armories beneath Khorne's fortress. These new units could be crafted to complement the old models, so you could have a gun line or daemonic soldiers and tanks raining down fire on the enemy while units of bloodletters and a 'thirster deepstrike from behind.

Do they though? I always thought of Chaos Daemons as a melee army with some (very) light fire support. Even Tzeentch, the shootist of the gods, is primarily melee with fire support IMO. If you want a gunline with your daemons then bring in some Daemon Engines or CSM.

TBH, Soul Grinders are kind of weird for me. They feel like they should belong with CSM rather than Daemons. They are the *only* vehicle in the Daemons codex, and it doesn't help that they share the majority of their kit with defilers.


Having a mostly melee army in 40k is very difficult. As was said in an earlier post, they are just ported from fantasy, with only a few rule changes. This just doesn't cut imo. Soul Grinders, like most daemon engines, need better WS and BS, and unlike their CSM counterparts, their shooting can't currently be upgraded. Personally, I think that all units with the daemon keyword, whether faction or not, should be able to seamlessly work together in detachments.

Canadian 5th wrote:Daemons are designed to either be used as a unified codex or used alongside a CSM detachment. I don't get the fascination with mono-god, pure daemon armies being viable when they aren't even shown to work that way in the fluff.


They do work that way, though. The Blood Crusade was basically a colossal horde of Khorne daemons surfing across the warp and destroying any planets they ran into, and Almarit was conquered by a pure daemon army. Daemon worlds dedicated to single gods do exist, and they didn't come into being through polite financial transactions. Mono-daemon armies most certainly have been seen. Should SM mono-chapter armies not be viable since they often work by themselves?
   
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Dakka Veteran




 ArcaneHorror wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Daemons definitely need to have gunline units. And I don't mean the odd mediocre engine or two, I mean MEQ's and TEQ's; Doom-style daemons that can dish out heavy amounts of firepower. Instead of bolters and lasguns, maybe they could have weapons with the same stats, but are different lore-wise, like guns made of fused human flesh that shoot out rounds of flaming bone or corrupted arrows (like the ones Tzaangors use) or shards of metal forged in the armories beneath Khorne's fortress. These new units could be crafted to complement the old models, so you could have a gun line or daemonic soldiers and tanks raining down fire on the enemy while units of bloodletters and a 'thirster deepstrike from behind.

Do they though? I always thought of Chaos Daemons as a melee army with some (very) light fire support. Even Tzeentch, the shootist of the gods, is primarily melee with fire support IMO. If you want a gunline with your daemons then bring in some Daemon Engines or CSM.

TBH, Soul Grinders are kind of weird for me. They feel like they should belong with CSM rather than Daemons. They are the *only* vehicle in the Daemons codex, and it doesn't help that they share the majority of their kit with defilers.


Having a mostly melee army in 40k is very difficult. As was said in an earlier post, they are just ported from fantasy, with only a few rule changes. This just doesn't cut imo. Soul Grinders, like most daemon engines, need better WS and BS, and unlike their CSM counterparts, their shooting can't currently be upgraded. Personally, I think that all units with the daemon keyword, whether faction or not, should be able to seamlessly work together in detachments.

I've been playing Chaos Daemons since mid-7th edition, so I am well aware of how difficult 8th edition is for melee focused armies. That being said, daemons of 7th edition had considerable advantages over their 8th edition counterparts that made them more playable.

1) Army wide deep strike. This made up for a lack of mobility in many of the options, and you could overwhelm an opponent with targets. Paying 1/2CP in 8th limits what units are usable.
2) Morale immunity to anything except close combat casualties. In 8th, any large unit is likely to lose more models to morale from shooting losses. This makes actually means large units are half as survivable as MSU.
3) Clearly summoning, but free units was BS, so it's fairer in 8th that you don't get them for free, BUT the mechanism now sucks to utilise.
4) Keeping enemy units in combat. You can do this in 8th, but it is a lot harder than 7th.
5) The limited amount of high ROF weaponry. When 8th dropped everything twin-linked gained more shots. It has just gone on with bolter drill, and the stuff previewed for the Admech. Daemons are priced higher than guards men, presumably because of their invuln, but when the meta is about high ROF AP-1 weaponry, the invulnerable doesn't really matter any more than an equivalent armour save, which brings me to
6) No benefit from cover. In 7th you had terrain that mattered for daemons. Nurgle with Stealth and Shrouded in ruins were near on impossible to move unless you had ignore cover. In 8th terrain only serves to slow you down or prevent you from charging because the enemy took up the 2nd level of the ruins.

As for the daemon engines, I don't disagree, but I don't think they make sense in a pure daemons aspect. They represent daemons bound to machines by mortals. So it makes sense for mortals to be around when they are. However, as it stands, you can unify Daemons and Daemon Engines into a god faction detachment (eg, Nurgle, Tzeentch, etc) and the buffs from pure daemons tend to also affect the daemon engines.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think that this thread was hijacked at some point.

It was a thread about a theme restriction concern and then it became yet another thread on "Shooting is OP".

By the way, flamers and exalted flamers are quite good ranged choices. Not long ranged sure, but not everyone needs to be T'au.
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




The whole issue is the poorly designed daemons codex. You can take units from 1 god - get a bonus, you want any of the other 75% of the codex in your detachment? Bonus taken away. Synergies with the other 75% of the codex? Almost none. Synergies with chaos space marines of various flavour - multiple.

The daemona codex is designed to shoe horn you in 1 direction with your god choice then move to an ally faction, otherwise you only ever reduce your own capabilities, which is madness.

People are comparing to marine chapters. A better example is losing your chapter bonus if you included more than 1 type of troop. Or a librarian and any other character.
   
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United Kingdom

Spoletta wrote:
I think that this thread was hijacked at some point.

It was a thread about a theme restriction concern and then it became yet another thread on "Shooting is OP".

By the way, flamers and exalted flamers are quite good ranged choices. Not long ranged sure, but not everyone needs to be T'au.


It's extremely hard to have this discussion without that being brought up, though, since min-max shooting via almost unrestricted choice is what causes theme lists to be pointless.

Having said that, I agree with the comments on self-restriction to some extent. I played a mono-Tzeentch daemon army in 8th WHFB and I knew it was going to struggle in nearly every battle, but it had some entertaining tricks that made up for it.

There is a bigger issue that hangs over 40k 8th and has done (to a more extreme degree) since the codexes started coming out. The problem is that unfettered choice through detatchments means the best choice is nearly always the only choice. This is more skewed for some keywords than others, notably Imperium, though it has received some nerfs over time.

Any choice other than the most efficient combination is going to struggle in a system as lethal as 40k 8th. At least my WHFB 8th daemons could fly about to dodge facings or hide behind a hill and use direct damage spells.

In 8th 40k, entertainment is essentially on you and your group (if you have one) to tailor, not just the list, but also the terrain and, eventually, the people around you. Ironically, self-constraint might be the only way to garner enjoyment if you aren't hell-bent on efficiency and competitiveness in it's most ruthless form.

By the way, I'm not knocking competitive mindsets or players, sometimes casual players are just as unpleasant and caustic. I also often find that very competitive (i.e. those who routinely go to tournaments) often are very solid players in terms of knowledge of the rules and how to use them.

Unfortunately GW cannot really enforce the social side of the hobby other than some words at the front of a rule book. However what they can do is create the kind of restriction that results in more varied choice, side-grades are most preferable to myself, as would a percentage system that was used in the past (at least in WHFB 8th).

However this is just me and I respect that many dislike the 'core-tax' of being forced to take sub-optimal troops choices (which does exist in a lesser form within detachments). It's clear there is something more than just raw competitive numbers driving some people's choices, because there is some variation in armies at tournaments, although most are of the efficient flavour of the time. Because of this I think it's important to take stock of what is beyond the min-max, so you don't find yourself in a dead area with no players.

I don't think perfect balance is obtainable, nor is it necessarily the best outcome, but at the same time there is a degree of skew that keeps being switched around like some multi-dimensional see-saw; when one end is up another 20 are down. I don't know if that produces a sustainable level of entertainment to keep people interested.

Having said all that, 8th 40k seems more enjoyable than 7th, on the whole.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/13 09:21:30


All I know is, I'm at least 92% Sure that Bette Davis Eyes was playing when Fulgrim and Ferrus fought.
 
   
Made in us
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Spoletta wrote:
I think that this thread was hijacked at some point.

It was a thread about a theme restriction concern and then it became yet another thread on "Shooting is OP".

By the way, flamers and exalted flamers are quite good ranged choices. Not long ranged sure, but not everyone needs to be T'au.


50pts for what amounts to an IG lascannon HWT but with D3 damage and 18" range is not...great....
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Having said all that, 8th 40k seems more enjoyable than 7th, on the whole.

i am pretty sure that is like saying water is wet.
But at a level where literally everything is better then 7th in regards to 40k-

Heck 6th is better then 7th and that one was allready quite MEH.

   
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 Insectum7 wrote:
^Imo Obliterators are the shooty daemons, they're just not in the daemon book. But if you want your DOOM, Horrors, Obliterators and Soul Grinders make for a fine start.

Edit: Obliterators even have the Daemon keyword


I mean they're objectively not. They're CSMs and they require a ton of CSM support. I love how we've gone from "you're not using the whole codex!" to "You're not using everything from that other codex."

Codex Chaos Daemons has 57 unit entries. More than Codex: Chaos Space Marines. This argument that they're somehow "supposed to be an ally dex" is like 7 orders of magnitude more cartoonish for daemons than it is for actual small factions when they're bad like admech GK and Harlequins.
   
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CSMStackitis is no joke.


   
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the_scotsman wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
I think that this thread was hijacked at some point.

It was a thread about a theme restriction concern and then it became yet another thread on "Shooting is OP".

By the way, flamers and exalted flamers are quite good ranged choices. Not long ranged sure, but not everyone needs to be T'au.


50pts for what amounts to an IG lascannon HWT but with D3 damage and 18" range is not...great....


Someone is forgetting that one of the two has character protection, and it isn't the IG one. The IG team is 75 points and cannot survive being looked at.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/13 11:36:14


 
   
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I seem to recall Nurgle forces having Plague Towers and Plague Catapults back in Epic - while the Tower would no doubt be a LoW unit, akin to the Lord of Skulls, perhaps the Catapult could make a return for some thematic fire support?

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Unless their shooting is insanely powerful, a single shooting unit will not redeem an army relying on melee and short range otherwise.

To make daemons work you would have to replace all slots with units that are at least decent at shooting - like successful nid and ork lists do.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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Not Online!!! wrote:
Having said all that, 8th 40k seems more enjoyable than 7th, on the whole.

i am pretty sure that is like saying water is wet.
But at a level where literally everything is better then 7th in regards to 40k-

Heck 6th is better then 7th and that one was allready quite MEH.


Sure, that was my point. I mean, from observation, I note that most forums like this one tend to (over time) turn into the same repetitive opinions and points, repackaged and re-posted for redundancy. In that sense I would say it is perfectly apt.

Though I continue to be interested in the 'Stockholm Syndrome' aspect of wargamers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/13 13:27:33


All I know is, I'm at least 92% Sure that Bette Davis Eyes was playing when Fulgrim and Ferrus fought.
 
   
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The other option is to make daemons wholly unique.

For example, the Daemon Army List in 30k doesn't deep strike, but also doesn't deploy normally. Instead, it has warp rift markers, which daemons treat as a board edge. Enemy models can shut the warp rift markers so friendly daemons have to protect them. Units come in from reserves on the old 3+, though some have a rule letting them come in turn 1 automatically so you don't autolose if you play mono daemons (the Vanguard of Hell special rule if you must know). That 3+ is unmodifiable for daemons alone, as well. This deployment method is unique to Daemons, and keeps them from being predictable. The Warp Rifts don't even have to be in your deployment zone; indeed, daemon players don't really "have" a strict deployment zone. But the closer they are to the enemy, the easier they are for the enemy to close.

Furthermore, the daemons have a scaling system to represent their tenuous grasp on reality - turns 1 and 2, they get +1 Str and +1 T, turns 3 and 4 they get nothing, turns 5 and 6 they get -1 str and -1 T, and turn 7 (or more if there are more) they're -2 and -2.

Lastly, they even have ways to change up the mission that they're playing. They can pick from 6 different army types (the Big 4 are represented, plus Malal (anti-chaos daemons), plus undivided) and these army types define their Warlord Traits, special rules, access to wargear, but also have a curious rule that lets them replace the victory condition of any mission with a victory condition unique to that army type, though it typically has drawbacks.

For example, the Slaanesh one (known as the Lurid Onslaught) has the Tainted Dream special rule:
HH Book 8 Malevolence wrote:The Daemons of the Ruinstorm player receives 1 victory point whenever an enemy unit fails a morale check (this does not include tests to regroup, but does include Pinning tests, Fear tests, and tests made due to the Stupefying Musk emanation). However, any enemy unit that succeeds at any of these checks due to Insane Heroism (a double 1) reduces the total number of VPs scored by this army by d3.


First of all, the Stupefying Musk emanation is an emanation (Wargear) available if you pick the Lurid Onslaught army type, if you're curious. I won't go into detail. Second of all, remember this entirely replaces the normal mission rules if you choose to use it, for the daemon player; the other player still plays the normal mission for VP. So the Daemons are playing an entirely different game than the mortals, acting in inscrutable ways.

So, TLDR:
A 30k Daemons army does not:
1) Deploy the same as a regular army
2) Play the same mission as a regular army
3) Build their army the same way as a regular army

This makes the faction feel unique and distinct, both respecting the lore by portraying Daemon legions as an inscrutable force who care little for military logic and improving gameplay by allowing an all-melee (or mostly melee) force to play a totally different game than their opponent.

Of course, it would need tweaks being brought into 8th; no charge out of reserves in HH is what keeps this balanced in a big way (imagine a warp rift plonking daemons in your butt and they got to charge!). But it's something that FW has done, even absent Alan Bligh; if GW's main studio cared, they could do the same. They just don't care, which really is the main gripe.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/13 13:28:19


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Not Online!!! wrote:
CSMStackitis is no joke.


And easily countered. The fact that Possessed Blob even got as far as it did is terribly silly. I hadn't lost to it once.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
Unless their shooting is insanely powerful, a single shooting unit will not redeem an army relying on melee and short range otherwise.

To make daemons work you would have to replace all slots with units that are at least decent at shooting - like successful nid and ork lists do.


600-700 points in shooting is usually a good amount in heavy assault lists. Just enough to score first strike and to pose a threath to the one or two units that you really need to take care of. (CA meta).
   
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the_scotsman wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Imo Obliterators are the shooty daemons, they're just not in the daemon book. But if you want your DOOM, Horrors, Obliterators and Soul Grinders make for a fine start.

Edit: Obliterators even have the Daemon keyword


I mean they're objectively not. They're CSMs and they require a ton of CSM support. I love how we've gone from "you're not using the whole codex!" to "You're not using everything from that other codex."

Codex Chaos Daemons has 57 unit entries. More than Codex: Chaos Space Marines. This argument that they're somehow "supposed to be an ally dex" is like 7 orders of magnitude more cartoonish for daemons than it is for actual small factions when they're bad like admech GK and Harlequins.

I was just pointing to Obliterators in terms of DOOM/Sci-fi Daemon imagery.

That said, those unit entries are very limited in options in a way that much of the CSM book isn't. How much can you really tailor you unit of Bloodletters in comparison to your unit of CSM? Plus, "Supposed to be an ally dex" isn hardly cartoonish when the two books used to be the same book.

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
CSMStackitis is no joke.


And easily countered. The fact that Possessed Blob even got as far as it did is terribly silly. I hadn't lost to it once.



Maybe your opponents were bad? After marine nerfs Chaos is up there alongside eldar (yes again) as the top dogs. Triple KLOS, possessed bomb, triple lord discordant, etc... the amount of buffs and sinergyes chaos is just insane. Thats also makes Grey Knights one of the strongest factions by virtue of being a very strong faction thats even better agaisnt some of the strongest lists out there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/13 14:20:15


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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Spoletta wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
Unless their shooting is insanely powerful, a single shooting unit will not redeem an army relying on melee and short range otherwise.

To make daemons work you would have to replace all slots with units that are at least decent at shooting - like successful nid and ork lists do.


600-700 points in shooting is usually a good amount in heavy assault lists. Just enough to score first strike and to pose a threath to the one or two units that you really need to take care of. (CA meta).


That is only true if those melee units are functioning within the current melee-hostile game - which means being able to assault from deep strike or being able to cross the board in one turn/without being shot at.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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I'm with the guys saying Daemons should rather stay CC-focused. Kroot shouldn't become CC masters that beat up Khorne Berserkers and Daemons shouldn't have shooty units that compare to shooting experts of other factions. Some spitting Nurgle unit (or a return of Nurglings throwing... things at the enemy) or Slaanesh with whips is okay, anything stronger should be left to Tzeentch. Do smites if you want to shoot. And let me play my Mono-Nurgle. If I want to shoot with my Nurgle Daemons I bring Oblits and Bloat Drones that make Epidemius happy.
   
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Being CC based is a theme of the daemons armies.

In fact, if you check the fluff behind the chronos hyve fleet, it says that to specialize in fighting chaos, those tyranids improved their ranged capabilities. Not even tyranids want a punching contest with them.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
Being CC based is a theme of the daemons armies.

In fact, if you check the fluff behind the chronos hyve fleet, it says that to specialize in fighting chaos, those tyranids improved their ranged capabilities. Not even tyranids want a punching contest with them.


But the current ruleset does not support this. I do not dip into demons for either my 1kson lists or my Red Corsairs for more melee. I feel I can get better out of CSM codex (my opinion).

   
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Table wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Being CC based is a theme of the daemons armies.

In fact, if you check the fluff behind the chronos hyve fleet, it says that to specialize in fighting chaos, those tyranids improved their ranged capabilities. Not even tyranids want a punching contest with them.


But the current ruleset does not support this. I do not dip into demons for either my 1kson lists or my Red Corsairs for more melee. I feel I can get better out of CSM codex (my opinion).



I mean, I wouldn't turn to daemons for melee support with my thousand sons because tzeentch daemons aren't melee focused. the melee auxiliaries in the Tsons codex tend to be better for that.

I do bring in daemons pretty regularly to fulfil an anti-chaff role, with a horror blob providing a better screen+horde clearing than cultists or tzaangors (who have to move pretty far out of position and in my experience are really CP hungry). I also use flamers with summoning pretty often, because you can easily summon them and drop their 12" flamer attacks to clear an objective.

There are certain elements in the daemons book I nearly never use - say, Screamers, who kill the same targets my basic AP-2 boltguns are good at killing - but there are also elements within tsons like Warpflamer Rubrics I'll almost always pass up for my Flamers of Tzeentch.
   
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the_scotsman wrote:
Table wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Being CC based is a theme of the daemons armies.

In fact, if you check the fluff behind the chronos hyve fleet, it says that to specialize in fighting chaos, those tyranids improved their ranged capabilities. Not even tyranids want a punching contest with them.


But the current ruleset does not support this. I do not dip into demons for either my 1kson lists or my Red Corsairs for more melee. I feel I can get better out of CSM codex (my opinion).



I mean, I wouldn't turn to daemons for melee support with my thousand sons because tzeentch daemons aren't melee focused. the melee auxiliaries in the Tsons codex tend to be better for that.

I do bring in daemons pretty regularly to fulfil an anti-chaff role, with a horror blob providing a better screen+horde clearing than cultists or tzaangors (who have to move pretty far out of position and in my experience are really CP hungry). I also use flamers with summoning pretty often, because you can easily summon them and drop their 12" flamer attacks to clear an objective.

There are certain elements in the daemons book I nearly never use - say, Screamers, who kill the same targets my basic AP-2 boltguns are good at killing - but there are also elements within tsons like Warpflamer Rubrics I'll almost always pass up for my Flamers of Tzeentch.


Again though this reinforces for me personally that the respective gods daemons should live in the relevant codex for them. Why do you need 2 books and separate detachments for thousand sons and tzeentch daemons when they're actually printed in the same book under 1 faction.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/14 20:46:07


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Table wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
Being CC based is a theme of the daemons armies.

In fact, if you check the fluff behind the chronos hyve fleet, it says that to specialize in fighting chaos, those tyranids improved their ranged capabilities. Not even tyranids want a punching contest with them.


But the current ruleset does not support this. I do not dip into demons for either my 1kson lists or my Red Corsairs for more melee. I feel I can get better out of CSM codex (my opinion).



Yeah, but we are talking about the daemon codex here.

What you are saying is the same as saying "Why would i need cheap chaff in the Adeptus Mech when i can take guard troops?"

Souping overshadows certain choices, we know already, and that is finally being fixed by GW in the new dexes.

It remains for a fact that anyone reading the daemon codex would get the impression that it is CC focused.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/15 08:35:34


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Perhaps not really relevant - but should Daemons benefit from some sort of "Brotherhood of Daemons" rule?

It seems like the faction is probably the biggest loser from the multiple smites rule - and while TS/GK got around it, daemons didn't.

So you can end up with an awful lot of characters, who could throw out an awful lot of smite, but after the first few its going to become very unlikely. Smites are still short range - but its something.

On the other hand smite spam was something that was (and sort of remains) really obnoxious - but I think this was a function of super cheap casters and no rule of 3. The combination of two stopped armies loading up with 8+ 30-40 point characters capable of making their points back with a single smite.

Thousand Sons+Nurgle Deamons was one of the combos GW took a hammer to last CA - but part of the issue is that the TS mortal wound output is much more reliable than domestic daemons. Which seems kind of stupid - even though you can argue TS should have something special.
   
 
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