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Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Them being Black Templars changes nothing about the shooting since it doesn't buff the shooting.

That's exactly my point. You chose the best trait for CSM against a unit that has no buffing to its shooting. That shows how little utility the Chaos Marine has.

I was taking the claims of running the math a previous poster had made and presented actual math in response. I also conceded thag it was only a roughly equal trade in wounds dealt in that specific scenario.
   
Made in us
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Eye of Terror

 p5freak wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
For one you really want your csm to do things and for that you need saturation of special / heavy weapons which the 10 man squad achieves perfectly.


Does 10 get more heavy/special weapons than 2x5? Because if not then it's just softer less flexible platform. Thought it was 1 if 5, 2 if 10 which makes 2x5 tougher more flexible than 1x10.


10 is also worse than 2x5, because you only get one champion for the same points.

... for a smaller squad with fewer wounds. It's a trade off, not a clear advantage.

I run 10 man CSM squads with dual Lascannons as Black Legion for the rerolls to hit with Abaddon's aura. In a gunline, they're very good because they don't become a priority target until things like Contemptors / Scorpius / Sicarans / Predators are destroyed. I get a lot of mileage using 3 - 6 of these squads.

CSMs are more complex than their rules / points would suggest. Hard to judge their worth outside of a specific list. A lot of it has to do with the flexibility around heavy weapons, they can be pivotal for winning 48" shooting contests. Even with diminished numbers, the World Killers Stratagem makes them a great denial unit.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 ClockworkZion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Them being Black Templars changes nothing about the shooting since it doesn't buff the shooting.

That's exactly my point. You chose the best trait for CSM against a unit that has no buffing to its shooting. That shows how little utility the Chaos Marine has.

I was taking the claims of running the math a previous poster had made and presented actual math in response. I also conceded thag it was only a roughly equal trade in wounds dealt in that specific scenario.

Which is still part of the problem. You had the Chaos Marines as is, and we didn't even make mention that the Black Templar have that ease of making use of their melee stats + Mortal Wound defense. The best utility Legion is outdone by a melee Chapter. That's how it can be with other armies too and that's absurdly sad.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Scheming Archon





Between the sacred silence and sleep.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
However GW tends to do dumb things, like with those Kalabites for example and buffing the Venom with ANOTHER point decrease over the Raider.


Did they? I must have missed that.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw - 2500 pts

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 harlokin wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
However GW tends to do dumb things, like with those Kalabites for example and buffing the Venom with ANOTHER point decrease over the Raider.


Did they? I must have missed that.

CA2019 made them cheaper again.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Scheming Archon





Between the sacred silence and sleep.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
However GW tends to do dumb things, like with those Kalabites for example and buffing the Venom with ANOTHER point decrease over the Raider.


Did they? I must have missed that.

CA2019 made them cheaper again.


Nope, it didn't.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw - 2500 pts

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 harlokin wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
However GW tends to do dumb things, like with those Kalabites for example and buffing the Venom with ANOTHER point decrease over the Raider.


Did they? I must have missed that.

CA2019 made them cheaper again.


Nope, it didn't.

I'm 99% sure it did

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Scheming Archon





Between the sacred silence and sleep.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 harlokin wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
However GW tends to do dumb things, like with those Kalabites for example and buffing the Venom with ANOTHER point decrease over the Raider.


Did they? I must have missed that.

CA2019 made them cheaper again.


Nope, it didn't.

I'm 99% sure it did


Nope, unchanged.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw - 2500 pts

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in us
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4th Obelisk On The Right

A.T. wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
So either its a bucket of free buffs to try and make power armor more appealing or I guess just give them an extra wound and make bolters -1ap for 3-4 nore points.
Making them stronger and more expensive is the best solution. It's a pity GW were so glued to the older edition stat lines during the move to 8th.


Chaos Space Marines are trapped in a design space that isn't 8th edition. They are mostly just ported over into 8th and are mostly just an index army with some strats.

I started chaos marines in 8th because I wanted a new army and play something close combat because I remember all the other editions they were at least threatening in CC. I was disappointed to find that chaos outside of mediocre world eater berzekers they are awful at close combat. Just another gunline power armor army.

Now I am starting SoB and am appalled at how much better the little ole sister are at fighting. All of their CC units will absolutely demolish chaos in CC. Powered up repentia or mortifiers will absolutely run straight through the best CSM can offer. Even the dirt cheap arco-flagellants will just mollywhop CSM.

CSM need to be broken out of the design box of the previous 7 editions to become what its claimed they are.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BrotherGecko wrote:
Now I am starting SoB and am appalled at how much better the little ole sister are at fighting.
You just need to charge and/or shoot the repentia first. Toughness 3, 1 wound, no armour save, no forward deployment, and no way to move past a screen.

The rest of the sisters troops will statistically inflict one unsaved wound for every 18 models in close combat with a regular CSM.

Yes - you read that right. If you take a maximum sized squad of your standard valourous heart battle sisters, including a superior with a chainsword, and charge a single CSM model with no legion bonuses, you will average slightly less than a single wound against them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 17:55:09


 
   
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In My Lab

A.T. wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
Now I am starting SoB and am appalled at how much better the little ole sister are at fighting.
You just need to charge and/or shoot the repentia first. Toughness 3, 1 wound, no armour save, no forward deployment, and no way to move past a screen.

The rest of the sisters troops will statistically inflict one unsaved wound for every 18 models in close combat with a regular CSM.
12 if Bloody Rose.
6 if the Bloody Rose charge.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
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I think Chaos Marines need to be taken in numbers higher than what people are doing, generally.

I get the Impression that GW wants them to look a bit more like the 30k Legions on the tabletop, surrounded by their Daemonic and cultist allies.

60 Chaos Marines aren't an investment too big in terms of points, but people don't run them in high number. They will be durable by virtue of the volume of fire needed to deal with them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 17:55:19


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Orange Knight wrote:
I think Chaos Marines need to be taken in numbers higher than what people are doing, generally.

I get the Impression that GW wants them to look a bit more like the 30k Legions on the tabletop, surrounded by their Daemonic and cultist allies.

60 Chaos Marines aren't an investment too big in terms of points, but people don't run them in high number. They will be durable by virtue of the volume of fire needed to deal with them.

LOL clearly if you think they're durable in that number you've never faced a Marine army period.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
Them being Black Templars changes nothing about the shooting since it doesn't buff the shooting.

That's exactly my point. You chose the best trait for CSM against a unit that has no buffing to its shooting. That shows how little utility the Chaos Marine has.

I was taking the claims of running the math a previous poster had made and presented actual math in response. I also conceded thag it was only a roughly equal trade in wounds dealt in that specific scenario.

Which is still part of the problem. You had the Chaos Marines as is, and we didn't even make mention that the Black Templar have that ease of making use of their melee stats + Mortal Wound defense. The best utility Legion is outdone by a melee Chapter. That's how it can be with other armies too and that's absurdly sad.

I had said that CSM might be on par with weaker chapters to which the response was that they were basically decimated, to which I responded with actual math and not claims.

If you're going to try taking shots make sure you can actually see the target.
   
Made in us
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4th Obelisk On The Right

A.T. wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
Now I am starting SoB and am appalled at how much better the little ole sister are at fighting.
You just need to charge and/or shoot the repentia first. Toughness 3, 1 wound, no armour save, no forward deployment, and no way to move past a screen.

The rest of the sisters troops will statistically inflict one unsaved wound for every 18 models in close combat with a regular CSM.

Yes - you read that right. If you take a maximum sized squad of your standard valourous heart battle sisters, including a superior with a chainsword, and charge a single CSM model with no legion bonuses, you will average slightly less than a single wound against them.


Repentia are pretty fast when your sling shooting them across the table. With being able to get a passive +1 advance and charge, reroll charging, advance and charge strat and using miracle dice to secure that charge or advance you can either get there turn 1 if your opponent is careless or turn 2 if you hide them in metal boxes turn 1.

Over all investment to get a squad of repentia to rip a knight to pieces is worth it.

You can also get a 4++ fairly easily on the squad if they run on foot.

Your also going to run them as bloody rose so even if you get 5 into cc against power armor opponents your still pound for pound going to maul them.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 JNAProductions wrote:
12 if Bloody Rose.
6 if the Bloody Rose charge.
Absolutely - and slightly better as you can get a vet and a chainsword in there.

Two small problems -
1) Your 54 points of models have surrendered their defensive bonuses and run up the board to kill kill 11 points of MEQ
2) The five basic MEQ you'd get for the same cost will kill more than 11 points of sisters - before you give them chainswords, legion traits, death to the false emperor, etc.



 BrotherGecko wrote:
Repentia are pretty fast when your sling shooting them across the table. With being able to get a passive +1 advance and charge, reroll charging, advance and charge strat and using miracle dice to secure that charge or advance you can either get there turn 1 if your opponent is careless or turn 2 if you hide them in metal boxes turn 1.
Over all investment to get a squad of repentia to rip a knight to pieces is worth it.
You can also get a 4++ fairly easily on the squad if they run on foot.
Your also going to run them as bloody rose so even if you get 5 into cc against power armor opponents your still pound for pound going to maul them.
All true. But that's not a unit of repentia.

That's a unit of repentia, a rhino, a mono-faction bonus, a detachment conviction, a strategem, some combination of warlord/named character/elite support units, a high roll on a single non-rerollable dice made at the start of the game, and an opponent who doesn't understand the concept of putting something between their very expensive model and their opponents entirely unsubtle glass cannon assault unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 18:13:47


 
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Orange Knight wrote:
I think Chaos Marines need to be taken in numbers higher than what people are doing, generally.

I get the Impression that GW wants them to look a bit more like the 30k Legions on the tabletop, surrounded by their Daemonic and cultist allies.

60 Chaos Marines aren't an investment too big in terms of points, but people don't run them in high number. They will be durable by virtue of the volume of fire needed to deal with them.

LOL clearly if you think they're durable in that number you've never faced a Marine army period.


Please, tell me about the last time you faced 60 Marines?

60 Marines, split Into MSU in cover, out of LOS, supported by the rest of the army. You think you can remove them in one turn? How about on turn 3 when your big guns are silenced? Piece of cake?

I'm not saying CSM are the best choice, am I? Did I say they are an all star unit? This topic is about making Chaos Marines work. It does not specify it's about making them meta busters.

There is more than black and white. Learn to see the nuance.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/21 18:10:39


 
   
Made in us
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan




On the Internet

A.T. wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
Now I am starting SoB and am appalled at how much better the little ole sister are at fighting.
You just need to charge and/or shoot the repentia first. Toughness 3, 1 wound, no armour save, no forward deployment, and no way to move past a screen.

The rest of the sisters troops will statistically inflict one unsaved wound for every 18 models in close combat with a regular CSM.

Yes - you read that right. If you take a maximum sized squad of your standard valourous heart battle sisters, including a superior with a chainsword, and charge a single CSM model with no legion bonuses, you will average slightly less than a single wound against them.

No one is focus firing Repentia off the board with their Penitent Engines or Mortifiers running up the board as well, and even if you kill Repentia they'll just pivot the resources they'd spend on them into something like Zephyrim that can do good work largely unsupported.

Bloody Rose may not be tabling Iron Hands anytime soon, but it's a solid army that does melee better than CSM because they just bring so many bodies and threats in decent number that something will connect and it'll connect hard.

CSM are in a weird middle ground where they have a decent volume of attacks for their points but they aren't durable enough to make the smaller numbers they have available on the table when compared to something like Sisters work in a punching contest.

I'm honestly not sure how it could be fixed though with how the edition works. I am starting to wonder if we just need to bump all Marines and Custodes up an additional wound and basically treat them all as heavy infantry instead of how it works now. I don't know though, and I suspect that people would tell me that it wouldn't be enough to fix them.
   
Made in us
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4th Obelisk On The Right

A.T. wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
12 if Bloody Rose.
6 if the Bloody Rose charge.
Absolutely - and slightly better as you can get a vet and a chainsword in there.

Two small problems -
1) Your 54 points of models have surrendered their defensive bonuses and run up the board to kill kill 11 points of MEQ
2) The five basic MEQ you'd get for the same cost will kill more than 11 points of sisters - before you give them chainswords, legion traits, death to the false emperor, etc.



 BrotherGecko wrote:
Repentia are pretty fast when your sling shooting them across the table. With being able to get a passive +1 advance and charge, reroll charging, advance and charge strat and using miracle dice to secure that charge or advance you can either get there turn 1 if your opponent is careless or turn 2 if you hide them in metal boxes turn 1.
Over all investment to get a squad of repentia to rip a knight to pieces is worth it.
You can also get a 4++ fairly easily on the squad if they run on foot.
Your also going to run them as bloody rose so even if you get 5 into cc against power armor opponents your still pound for pound going to maul them.
All true. But that's not a unit of repentia.

That's a unit of repentia, a rhino, a mono-faction bonus, a detachment conviction, a strategem, some combination of warlord/named character/elite support units, a high roll on a single non-rerollable dice made at the start of the game, and an opponent who doesn't understand the concept of putting something between their very expensive model and their opponents entirely unsubtle glass cannon assault unit.


If CSM could power up like repentia can I wouldn't be here having an issue with them. But they can't and that is part of the problem.

I wouldn't use repentia to kill CSM though. You would gank something juicier. As for screens stopping them, SoB are pretty good at anti infantry. Arco-flagellants throwing up to 93 attacks would punch a massive hole right through a cultist screen. Or pentient engines throwing something like 60+ attacks would as well. Both can also sweep away power armor squads just as easily. Or exorcists, battle sisters, seraphim etc. If you want repentia to punch something odds are they will punch something.

Point being SoB can do what CSM are famous for but better and that annoys me. I mostly build around daemon engines and would love for a maulerfiend to be half as dangerous as some of the stuff sister can bring. Its not like maulerfiends are any more survivable or cheaper either

As for running 60 marines. I've done that with red corsairs. All my marines were dead by turn 3. Devastator doctrine onslaught gattling cannons just scythe through csm squads. Running MSU won't help when your split firing a mountain of rerollable dice.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 18:35:24


 
   
Made in gb
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So what happened to the rest of your army? Was there no Los blocking?

I've had my Orange Knights Primaris tabled in 2 turns by Tau on a scarce table. Do you belive Intercessors have no durability?
   
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 Orange Knight wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Orange Knight wrote:
I think Chaos Marines need to be taken in numbers higher than what people are doing, generally.

I get the Impression that GW wants them to look a bit more like the 30k Legions on the tabletop, surrounded by their Daemonic and cultist allies.

60 Chaos Marines aren't an investment too big in terms of points, but people don't run them in high number. They will be durable by virtue of the volume of fire needed to deal with them.

LOL clearly if you think they're durable in that number you've never faced a Marine army period.


Please, tell me about the last time you faced 60 Marines?

60 Marines, split Into MSU in cover, out of LOS, supported by the rest of the army. You think you can remove them in one turn? How about on turn 3 when your big guns are silenced? Piece of cake?

I'm not saying CSM are the best choice, am I? Did I say they are an all star unit? This topic is about making Chaos Marines work. It does not specify it's about making them meta busters.

There is more than black and white. Learn to see the nuance.

Probably in January as Red Corsairs (though it was more like 50) with my second iteration of a Carcharodon list. Yeah they die pretty easy to Dual Chainsword Vanguard it turns out (and even easier to being pelted by Aggressors). You don't need big guns to kill them LOL not even sure where that came from.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
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So in your opinion Marines don't work at all. Don't bother taking them, end of discussion?
   
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4th Obelisk On The Right

 Orange Knight wrote:
So what happened to the rest of your army? Was there no Los blocking?

I've had my Orange Knights Primaris tabled in 2 turns by Tau on a scarce table. Do you belive Intercessors have no durability?

Typically I run against opponents who sit in their DZ and shoot until enough of my forces are dead.

I play fairly casually and mostly play CSM for the daemon engines these days. I usually run my lists in 2 stages. Turn 1 daemon engines charge, turn 2 the marines charge.

Lately since the buffed SM codex. The daemon engines hit, lightly paw some primaris units (doesn't matter which, maulerfiends rarely do enough damage to vehicles or infantry). Opponent walks out of close combat, kills the daemon engines. Marines do nothing...ever...under any circumstances.

That was as Red Corsairs. Running gun line black legion has been better but is very unsatisfying. I stopped playing loyalist marines because they are gunline (except you blood angels, never change).

If I could get CSM to be worth the effort in casual games against casual opponents I wouldn't have any complaints. I don't really care about top table power tiers.

I made the mistake of building a bunch of chainsword marines so I will own that but it sucks playing the Worf faction.

 
   
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On the Internet

 Orange Knight wrote:
So in your opinion Marines don't work at all. Don't bother taking them, end of discussion?

Some arguement always exists for local meta but none exists for tournament play.
   
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@BrotherGecko

Sounds like an issue of the mission you play?

In the new CA2019 there are missions where you have to live out quickly and ranking your opponent doesn't guarantee a win.

Static games are very dull.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/21 18:48:30


 
   
Made in us
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 Orange Knight wrote:
So in your opinion Marines don't work at all. Don't bother taking them, end of discussion?

Chaos Marines really don't work and haven't since the beginning of the edition. They also didn't work in 7th either (imagine paying 2 points to give them an extra attack hahahaha), and the ease of marked HQs meant you could bring a different troop choice and not care. They might have seen the light of day when the Legion supplement ended up dropping because for just a couple of points for the MoN, you could make them all Death Guard and just ignore all the mechanics in the game + get FNP, but that didn't last long because 8th dropped.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BrotherGecko wrote:
Point being SoB can do what CSM are famous for but better and that annoys me
At this point you've thrown in the sisters biggest glass cannon with a whole slew of buffs and bonuses, an entire army of support and some pretty impressive strategic manoeuvering - it's no surprise that basic CSM don't stack up.

Besides CSM aren't an all-in up the board assault army any more than loyalists - they've got far too many guns for that. Sounds like a job for a khorne daemonkin codex.
   
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On the Internet

It's not even about going pure assault. Even taking assault heavy CSM lists is punished heavilly right now. I for one aould love a massed army of Bersekers and maybe some Flesh Hounds with some units in the back to help soften hard targets but it doesn't work on any level. The best we can do is taking a maxed out unit of Zerkers or Possessed (maybe two for threat saturation) and pour a bucket of CP and buffs into them for one, maybe two, turns in combat.

I think if they brought back the old test to fallback melee would be in a far better place than it is right now, as it stands we have to fight hard just to attempt to make it work.
   
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4th Obelisk On The Right

A.T. wrote:
 BrotherGecko wrote:
Point being SoB can do what CSM are famous for but better and that annoys me
At this point you've thrown in the sisters biggest glass cannon with a whole slew of buffs and bonuses, an entire army of support and some pretty impressive strategic manoeuvering - it's no surprise that basic CSM don't stack up.

Besides CSM aren't an all-in up the board assault army any more than loyalists - they've got far too many guns for that. Sounds like a job for a khorne daemonkin codex.


Well I did express the annoyance that CSM can't power up to be dangerous at anything. They are stuck being a minor nuisance.

I can power up plague marines in death guard and make a pretty good assault threat. It might not be efficient but in casual games it will be fun.

Building a list around repentia might not be the best but it will be fun.

CSM just exist as the less effective alternative to cultists in their own codex.

 
   
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On the Internet

I think there is some credit for CSM over cultists in that CSM don't need to be babysat nearly as much to hold objectives since they die slower and can ignore casualties via MSU.

The best method is likely mixing the two and taking some of each so you can focus the cultist support a little more tightly while the CSM hold rear objectives and plink at available targets (I'm thinking the autocannon might lend well to this since it has a good profile at a decent points cost).

But that is just a feeling I have and nothing I've tested.
   
 
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