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 Orange Knight wrote:
Those are exceptions and not the rule. The 7th to 8th jump was the first time all datasheets and core rules were re-written in 15 years?

You must not be understanding me correctly.

Your army can be completely unplayable after a new edition, even without rewriting datasheets. It has happened before. From 4th to 5th. From 5th to 6th. From 6th to 7th. It can happen again.

That's why people stop buying stuff when a new edition is announced - they don't want to waste their money on things that might be useless in the next edition.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
Those are exceptions and not the rule. The 7th to 8th jump was the first time all datasheets and core rules were re-written in 15 years?

You must not be understanding me correctly.

Your army can be completely unplayable after a new edition, even without rewriting datasheets. It has happened before. From 4th to 5th. From 5th to 6th. From 6th to 7th. It can happen again.

That's why people stop buying stuff when a new edition is announced - they don't want to waste their money on things that might be useless in the next edition.

1: It hasn't been announced yet, so at the moment you are creating a self panic and fear of the future. You are choosing to expect the worst possible outcome for you personally. That's entirely on you.

2: Once it is announced we will know what to expect. I am willing to put money on it being a consolidated, tidy rule-set with better terrain interaction. An 8.5 edition, if you will.

Let's wait and see.

 Orange Knight wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
Those are exceptions and not the rule. The 7th to 8th jump was the first time all datasheets and core rules were re-written in 15 years?

You must not be understanding me correctly.

Your army can be completely unplayable after a new edition, even without rewriting datasheets. It has happened before. From 4th to 5th. From 5th to 6th. From 6th to 7th. It can happen again.

That's why people stop buying stuff when a new edition is announced - they don't want to waste their money on things that might be useless in the next edition.

1: It hasn't been announced yet, so at the moment you are creating a self panic and fear of the future.

2: Once it is announced we will know what to expect. I am willing to put money on it being a consolidated, tidy rule-set with better terrain interaction. An 8.5 edition, if you will.

Let's wait and see.

Please read my full argument, you must have missed it.
I said that announcing a new edition is unwise because people will stop buying things.
People will stop buying things because there is a real chance of purchases being invalidated independently of the magnitude of the rules change.
This uncludes both PA books and new models.

It's only unwise if people don't know what to expect.

If they come out of the gate and say the new edition is 100% compatible with existing and upcoming books then it isn't a problem.

 Orange Knight wrote:
It's only unwise if people don't know what to expect.

If they come out of the gate and say the new edition is 100% compatible with existing and upcoming books then it isn't a problem.

How many edition changes have you been part of?

3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

Multiple though fantasy as well. I used to play Warriors of Chaos, Slaanesh themed.

 Jidmah wrote:

Please read my full argument, you must have missed it.
I said that announcing a new edition is unwise because people will stop buying things.
People will stop buying things because there is a real chance of purchases being invalidated independently of the magnitude of the rules change.
This uncludes both PA books and new models.

If by invalidated you mean becomes bad then we live in age when that happens now about 3 times a year before even factoring new books. Spring faq(well okay this time corona seems to have killed that), autumn faq and in particular CA invalidates purchases that way(whole point. Make good units bad, bad units good and merry purchase round starts again). Doesn't seem to have stopped players from buying despite knowing units are getting invalidated(as in made bad) in few months time.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
Those are exceptions and not the rule. The 7th to 8th jump was the first time all datasheets and core rules were re-written in 15 years?

You must not be understanding me correctly.

Your army can be completely unplayable after a new edition, even without rewriting datasheets. It has happened before. From 4th to 5th. From 5th to 6th. From 6th to 7th. It can happen again.

That's why people stop buying stuff when a new edition is announced - they don't want to waste their money on things that might be useless in the next edition.

There's also people who care little about the meta and just buy stuff they like.
I'm planning to get some SM Devastators and Drop Pods because I like how they look and I don't have any in my small SM army. I know perfectly well that they are going to be less useful as time goes by and ultimately be phased out as they are oldmarines.
A lot of Tau stuff I have on my purchase list is not even remotely useful nor playable right now (fortifications above all), but my goal is to have a complete Tau collection so their usefulness 6-12-18 months from now is irrelevant.

Those who run behind the meta trying to be on top of it are going to lose every time, it changes too quickly compared to the time needed to buy, assemble and paint the minis. This is true for both the uber-competitive players and for the newbies that ask which units are good right now because they are not sure what to buy next. The competitive players either constantly swap and borrow armies or have large collections that allow them to play with virtually anything.
Basing your purchases on rules is not very smart, imho. Just buy what you like aesthetically and what you think you're going to like playing with.

 Orange Knight wrote:
3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

Multiple though fantasy as well. I used to play Warriors of Chaos, Slaanesh themed.

Great, so in any of the transitions from third to seventh, you must inevitably have had that game where you fielded some units that worked good enough so far, but in the new edition simply failed to perform.
Because certain weapons simply weren't good anymore at killing the things they used to kill well, because your psychic powers were suddenly something completely different, a defensive mechanism of a durable unit was rendered ineffective, a unit type was changed, a combo your army had broke apart, because transport rules were change once again or because there suddenly was a completely new mechanic that changed how shooting or assault works.
Depending on the size of your collection, you were probably even forced to get new units to fill the holes, or dust off things that weren't doing so hot until now.
Especially things whose success is very closely linked to how current edition works - for example a smash captains or hordes of cheap troops - might become worthless next edition.

Stuff like that has happened to all armies in all transitions, despite the rules remaining "100% compatible", and it's unreasonable to expect the next edition to be any different.
The only big difference this time around is that there is a non-zero chance of GW actually changing and adding rules or reducing points to get units back off the shelf over the course of the edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
If by invalidated you mean becomes bad then we live in age when that happens now about 3 times a year before even factoring new books. Spring faq(well okay this time corona seems to have killed that), autumn faq and in particular CA invalidates purchases that way(whole point. Make good units bad, bad units good and merry purchase round starts again). Doesn't seem to have stopped players from buying despite knowing units are getting invalidated(as in made bad) in few months time.

I don't think there are any instances of units being invalidated over the course of 8th outside of the commissar and conscripts.

Mixed views really.

I think some players will be nervous - but as said, we live in a CA world now.

Buying up a 2k list of the current hotness isn't really the same as it used to be. You shouldn't get the same whinging of "I've assembled my perfect cavalry army of just cavalry because cavalry are overpowered and have been for the last 10~ years, omg what is this 8th, my army is trash now, screw WHFB I'm never playing again".

But a few key rules changes could significantly impact the meta - and if you are the sort of person who builds armies by having a 2k points list, no more, no less, you are likely to want to see how the dust settles before continuing.

On the other hand if you decided you were an Ork player 20+ years ago, and have just been adding a few ork units to your collection every 6 months, this isn't likely to put you off.

The general view will be whether this edition is better or worse than the last, and the according hype.

But then again - I remain suspect they'll announce 9th edition. Or if so I'd expect it to be a long way out. Very unlikely - but I'd more expect just big Necron wave - possibly as a Necron/Sisters box. Then towards the end of the year, another release.

Then you do 9th edition - with the mandatory Space Marines - in 2021.

But I could be totally wrong in 24 hours.

When they announced the updated edition of AOS did it have a strong impact on people buying things at that time? I can't remember but since I would expect any new 40k edition to be like AOS 2.0 it would likely work out the same way.

 Aenar wrote:
Just buy what you like aesthetically and what you think you're going to like playing with.

That last part is what I'm talking about, not about winning tournaments.
I fully understand getting drop pods and devs. But even if the aren't the most efficient units in the game, devs will still be shooting weapons and destroying things, a drop pod will still be delivering some oldmarine unit to where your opponent doesn't want them.

However, there are units which don't do what they are supposed to do. They might look nice, but you won't like playing with them.
Let's take this guy as an example: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Mek-2018
Most non-ork players probably don't even know he exists. Most ork players don't have him.
Why? Because he doesn't do anything. He has a 12" pistol which is as likely to hurt himself as anyone else and can restore one wound to an ork vehicle within 1" - assuming he somehow managed to run after them on foot and the paper-thin ork vehicle manage to not just get destroyed outright. You can even make him worse by spending points on a melee weapon which he can no longer use properly in this edition.
He is one of those units which lost its purpose between editions and lost the one option which made him worth considering (as brigade filler, mind you) to legends.

@Jidmah

I think you need to stop fearing the worst. Units rise and fall in power every 3 months as FAQs, updates and Erratas are introduced. A new edition that alters some rules is nothing different.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Aenar wrote:
Just buy what you like aesthetically and what you think you're going to like playing with.

That last part is what I'm talking about, not about winning tournaments.
I fully understand getting drop pods and devs. But even if the aren't the most efficient units in the game, devs will still be shooting weapons and destroying things, a drop pod will still be delivering some oldmarine unit to where your opponent doesn't want them.

However, there are units which don't do what they are supposed to do. They might look nice, but you won't like playing with them.
Let's take this guy as an example: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Ork-Mek-2018
Most non-ork players probably don't even know he exists. Most ork players don't have him.
Why? Because he doesn't do anything. He has a 12" pistol which is as likely to hurt himself as anyone else and can restore one wound to an ork vehicle within 1" - assuming he somehow managed to run after them on foot and the paper-thin ork vehicle manage to not just get destroyed outright. You can even make him worse by spending points on a melee weapon which he can no longer use properly in this edition.
He is one of those units which lost its purpose between editions and lost the one option which made him worth considering (as brigade filler, mind you) to legends.

And if a new edition is announced that is fully compatible with existing books (i.e. none of the datasheets change, the codex doesn't, saga of the beast doesn't), makes you think his role or how you use him would change? They could make it so all vehicle keyword units become immune to less than s6 or something dumb and he'd become more useful, but his role and abilities don't change.

Now you will only care about this if you're into a try hard competitive race with your local players, for the vast majority of people they won't be sat at home thinking "wow I'm glad I never bought anything for that ork army just in case all the books and rules we were told will still work do in fact still work".

Dudeface wrote:
And if a new edition is announced that is fully compatible with existing books (i.e. none of the datasheets change, the codex doesn't, saga of the beast doesn't), makes you think his role or how you use him would change? They could make it so all vehicle keyword units become immune to less than s6 or something dumb and he'd become more useful, but his role and abilities don't change.

You just lack imagination. If, for example, the basic rules would change to have transports to be considered in base contact with the models they are transporting the mek would immediately have a reason to exist again.

Now you will only care about this if you're into a try hard competitive race with your local players, for the vast majority of people they won't be sat at home thinking "wow I'm glad I never bought anything for that ork army just in case all the books and rules we were told will still work do in fact still work".

Nice ad hominem attack. Out of arguments, are we? How about you attack the argument and not the person.

 Orange Knight wrote:
A new edition that alters some rules is nothing different.

You're assuming that's what 9th will be (if it is coming, that is, which I don't think it is).

As much as you can call people ridiculous for expecting the worst from a new edition, you would do well to consider that the rules change might be more substantial than in previous cases. After all, it was the most recent edition change that caused a great deal of reworking. What's to say the same can't/won't happen?

I'm not making claims or predictions, but there's no backing behind claims like "there's no way it would be a drastic redesign!"

 Orange Knight wrote:
A new edition that alters some rules is nothing different.

And that is exactly where you are wrong. No one, not even the almighty people of dakka, can foresee the impact of changing core rules in its entirety. This is very different for the minor adjustments that FAQs and CA are.

Whether or not you or I would be inclined to buy more models or PA books etc isn’t really the issue. The timing of announcement of a new edition is a business decision. If the GW board think that such an announcement is likely to result in reduced sales in the short term then they would probably not make that announcement. If they think it won’t negatively impact sales they might make the announcement. If they think it would increase sales they will make the announcement.

It seems to me from reading this thread that there is a proportion of customers who would be likely to reduce their purchasing, and a proportion who would continue as normal. Nobody seems to think the announcement of a new edition would increase sales. Seems to me the smart business decision would be not to make the announcement until PA and the current slate of releases has run its course.

Maybe I’m wrong, we’ll find out tomorrow. But it’s really not about whether you think people shouldn’t be dissuaded from buying new stuff, only whether or not they will be.

ITT: a lot of doomsaying without us even knowing how the things are going to happen, or even if

 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
And if a new edition is announced that is fully compatible with existing books (i.e. none of the datasheets change, the codex doesn't, saga of the beast doesn't), makes you think his role or how you use him would change? They could make it so all vehicle keyword units become immune to less than s6 or something dumb and he'd become more useful, but his role and abilities don't change.

You just lack imagination. If, for example, the basic rules would change to have transports to be considered in base contact with the models they are transporting the mek would immediately have a reason to exist again.

Now you will only care about this if you're into a try hard competitive race with your local players, for the vast majority of people they won't be sat at home thinking "wow I'm glad I never bought anything for that ork army just in case all the books and rules we were told will still work do in fact still work".

Nice ad hominem attack. Out of arguments, are we? How about you attack the argument and not the person.

Nah, I just don't fancy beating my head against a wall. Simple facts are my army will still be the same as it is in my cases in 3 months time more or less, rules that will be compatible between editions are safe to buy i.e. not going to be made redundant and I wouldn't withhold just because I'm scared something might not be OP enough in a couple of months. I'd argue the same can be said of a lot of the player base as well who have an existing collection they want to use to the fullest, without being scared of their units not being "good enough" to own.

Dudeface wrote:Nah, I just don't fancy beating my head against a wall. Simple facts are my army will still be the same as it is in my cases in 3 months time more or less, rules that will be compatible between editions are safe to buy i.e. not going to be made redundant and I wouldn't withhold just because I'm scared something might not be OP enough in a couple of months. I'd argue the same can be said of a lot of the player base as well who have an existing collection they want to use to the fullest, without being scared of their units not being "good enough" to own.

I marked the parts where you deliberately misrepresent my argument in yellow.

It depends if they AoS the 40K universe. That saw armies made redundant, wholesale.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
It's only unwise if people don't know what to expect.

If they come out of the gate and say the new edition is 100% compatible with existing and upcoming books then it isn't a problem.

How many edition changes have you been part of?

I was going to ask the same as GW has announced editions time and time again regardless of whether it invalidates something or not. It's the reason why we are currently at 8th edition 40k, ended at 8th edition in WHFB, and are at 2nd edition AoS.

My guess would be that new editions and starters sell like hotcakes so they are easy money for GW.

Jidmah wrote:
Please read my full argument, you must have missed it.
I said that announcing a new edition is unwise because people will stop buying things.
People will stop buying things because there is a real chance of purchases being invalidated independently of the magnitude of the rules change.
This uncludes both PA books and new models.

Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:Nah, I just don't fancy beating my head against a wall. Simple facts are my army will still be the same as it is in my cases in 3 months time more or less, rules that will be compatible between editions are safe to buy i.e. not going to be made redundant and I wouldn't withhold just because I'm scared something might not be OP enough in a couple of months. I'd argue the same can be said of a lot of the player base as well who have an existing collection they want to use to the fullest, without being scared of their units not being "good enough" to own.

I marked the parts where you deliberately misrepresent my argument in yellow.

Please explain how purchases are invalidated independently of rules changes unless you're explicitly referring to their respective power level. If it can be used then it isn't invalidated by definition.

My prediction is that they will announce that the announcement of Engine War will happen.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
A new edition that alters some rules is nothing different.

And that is exactly where you are wrong. No one, not even the almighty people of dakka, can foresee the impact of changing core rules in its entirety. This is very different for the minor adjustments that FAQs and CA are.

Who says all core rules will be changed? I imagine they'll tidy up some wording and put the FAQs and Erratas into the main rules.

But maybe you're right. Maybe we should all spend the next 24 hours in fear, worrying over future rules for a game we play.

As for increasing sales, the buzz created by a new edition will absolutely result in more sales in the short and medium turn.

 Orange Knight wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
A new edition that alters some rules is nothing different.

And that is exactly where you are wrong. No one, not even the almighty people of dakka, can foresee the impact of changing core rules in its entirety. This is very different for the minor adjustments that FAQs and CA are.

Who says all core rules will be changed? I imagine they'll tidy up some wording and put the FAQs and Erratas into the main rules.

But maybe you're right. Maybe we should all spend the next 24 hours in fear, worrying over future rules for a game we play.

As for increasing sales, the buzz created by a new edition will absolutely result in more sales in the short and medium turn.

I very much doubt announcing a new edition would see an increase of sales in the period between the announcement and the release of said new edition. After release, absolutely, but in the mean time, there are a series of releases planned which might suffer loss of sales as a result of such an announcement.

I’m not saying that a new edition isn’t coming, just that announcing it now seems unlikely.

Aash wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
A new edition that alters some rules is nothing different.

And that is exactly where you are wrong. No one, not even the almighty people of dakka, can foresee the impact of changing core rules in its entirety. This is very different for the minor adjustments that FAQs and CA are.

Who says all core rules will be changed? I imagine they'll tidy up some wording and put the FAQs and Erratas into the main rules.

But maybe you're right. Maybe we should all spend the next 24 hours in fear, worrying over future rules for a game we play.

As for increasing sales, the buzz created by a new edition will absolutely result in more sales in the short and medium turn.

I very much doubt announcing a new edition would see an increase of sales in the period between the announcement and the release of said new edition. After release, absolutely, but in the mean time, there are a series of releases planned which might suffer loss of sales as a result of such an announcement.

I’m not saying that a new edition isn’t coming, just that announcing it now seems unlikely.

This is the heart of the discussion, if it's a minor revision and all current books are compatible, why would sales drop?

If GW advertise an updated edition which has a tighter set of rules and a clean up from the clutter over the last 3 years, whilst keeping all existing books fully compatible you can guarantee players will be excited and that will lead to more sales.

Dudeface wrote:

Aash wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Orange Knight wrote:
A new edition that alters some rules is nothing different.

And that is exactly where you are wrong. No one, not even the almighty people of dakka, can foresee the impact of changing core rules in its entirety. This is very different for the minor adjustments that FAQs and CA are.

Who says all core rules will be changed? I imagine they'll tidy up some wording and put the FAQs and Erratas into the main rules.

But maybe you're right. Maybe we should all spend the next 24 hours in fear, worrying over future rules for a game we play.

As for increasing sales, the buzz created by a new edition will absolutely result in more sales in the short and medium turn.

I very much doubt announcing a new edition would see an increase of sales in the period between the announcement and the release of said new edition. After release, absolutely, but in the mean time, there are a series of releases planned which might suffer loss of sales as a result of such an announcement.

I’m not saying that a new edition isn’t coming, just that announcing it now seems unlikely.

This is the heart of the discussion, if it's a minor revision and all current books are compatible, why would sales drop?

Sales would drop because of the uncertainty presented by an announcement of a forthcoming new edition. In most markets, uncertainty leads to a drop in consumer confidence, which is expressed by a fall in sales. It certainly wouldn’t increase sales in the period between announcement and launch, so why risk losing sales when the release of new models/rules publications without such an announcement would be expected to result in an uptick in sales.

Just seems an unnecessary risk.

Edit:

GW has historically seen a drop in sales in the lead up to a new edition followed by an increase after the release. I see nothing to indicate that this pattern is likely to change.