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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




How is it a disadvantage? Theyre cheaper and the d2 weapons spammed against marines will be wasted. If you follow that logic every codex who doesn't have their base troops 2w is now at a disadvantage.

CSM or GK? Because in case of CSM they would be just a sub par version of normal marines. In case of GK they wouldn't be cheaper, there would be a chance they would actualy go up in price if GW decides to put the point hikes in to gear cost, stuff like terminators which are troops would still suffer in a 2W meta.

It is not just 2W, but number of wounds to the points a unit costs. And stuff like csm or GK does coralate with marine points costs a lot more, then lets say orcs or eldar. To use another faction example, if d eldar troops got 2W for being on drugs 24/7 and normal eldar stayed at 1W, and both eldar had the same basic stat line and point cost, then one would be worse then the other.

And if agressors or heavy intercesors suddenly would end up costing 70pts each, they would be very bad too, even with 3W each and a t5.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Karol wrote:
How is it a disadvantage? Theyre cheaper and the d2 weapons spammed against marines will be wasted. If you follow that logic every codex who doesn't have their base troops 2w is now at a disadvantage.

CSM or GK? Because in case of CSM they would be just a sub par version of normal marines. In case of GK they wouldn't be cheaper, there would be a chance they would actualy go up in price if GW decides to put the point hikes in to gear cost, stuff like terminators which are troops would still suffer in a 2W meta.

It is not just 2W, but number of wounds to the points a unit costs. And stuff like csm or GK does coralate with marine points costs a lot more, then lets say orcs or eldar. To use another faction example, if d eldar troops got 2W for being on drugs 24/7 and normal eldar stayed at 1W, and both eldar had the same basic stat line and point cost, then one would be worse then the other.

And if agressors or heavy intercesors suddenly would end up costing 70pts each, they would be very bad too, even with 3W each and a t5.


But tactical marines get a points raise when they go to 2 wounds. If strike squads don't get a points hike and they're priced appropriately for their 1 wound, how is it a nerf?

Will you lose more to orks suddenly with grey knights because a tactical marines is 2 wounds?

If chaos marines didn't go to 2 wounds, which is a pointless thought experiment admittedly, they'd be less resilient than tactical marines but equal points of them would equate to more guns,or more units.

Long and short of it is another book being adjusted doesn't affect your units. If they're a good price now, that doesn't change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/20 12:30:33


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 wuestenfux wrote:
How long will GK players have to wait and see?
Until their Codex comes out... well... we'd also have to know how they fare against Chaos Daemons. So then they'd have to wait and see until that books out. Of course, they fight Chaos as well, so they might also have to wait and see until the Chaos Space Marine book comes out. And even then, by then it might be time for a new Marine Codex, which could involve some changes that Grey Knights would also benefit from, so they might need to wait and see with that book. But, thinking about, by then a new edition will probably come around, so Grey Knight players will likely be better served by waiting and seeing until 10th Ed.

See how this bull gak never ends?

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Oh joy if you compair them to intercessors they are fine, funny how those same marine players ignore any comparisons to Kabalites, Guardians, Firewarriors.

that's because marine players can't take kabalites guardians and firewarriors.

So how else do you compair inter codex balance then?

You know, it's funny, because Firewarriors have the exact same gun Heavy Intercessor has. Only they cost 1/5 of what HI do. And I am strangely sure that if situation was reversed, and HI were Tau unit, while FW were SM one, people currently screeching MUHREENZ OPPP!!1! would be right now howling how OP Firewarriors are and how GW hates xenos because such good unit can't be so cheap
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 Irbis wrote:
...You know, it's funny, because Firewarriors have the exact same gun Heavy Intercessor has...


Minus six inches of range and a point of AP. And a point of BS, and wildly different durability stats, and a huge number of free buffs and aura buffs the Heavy Intercessor gets for being a Space Marine.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It isn't the same gun at all. It isn't even close to the same gun. If you're going to start accusing people of bad faith you might as well do it based on real facts, not fake ones.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





yukishiro1 wrote:
It isn't the same gun at all. It isn't even close to the same gun. If you're going to start accusing people of bad faith you might as well do it based on real facts, not fake ones.


It be how it feels tho, firewarrior's special shtick is to have troops with S5 weaponry. Guess what, marines now have troops with S5 weaponry.
And that's how it feels for everything new that gets released
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

You know, every time there's someone saying wait and see.. and almost every time the people's fears are realized.

When does "wait and see" not become an excuse?

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Never. That's the beauty of it. "Wait and see" always works because there's always something coming. Tomorrow is always tomorrow, it's never today.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





yukishiro1 wrote:
Never. That's the beauty of it. "Wait and see" always works because there's always something coming. Tomorrow is always tomorrow, it's never today.


And if you demand tomorrow today, there is no tomorrow.

So yeah, you're not wrong. It really is something beautiful.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Wayniac wrote:
When does "wait and see" not become an excuse?
As mentioned already, we'll have to wait and see.

Honestly "wait and see" is a bit like your typical conspiracy theorist.

"There's no evidence."
"Because they covered it up! It's just proof of the conspiracy."
"But how come no one else is talking about it."
"Because they silenced everyone! It's just more proof of the conspiracy!"


And on and on and on...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/21 00:48:21


   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
When does "wait and see" not become an excuse?
As mentioned already, we'll have to wait and see.

Honestly "wait and see" is a bit like your typical conspiracy theorist.

"There's no evidence."
"Because they covered it up! It's just proof of the conspiracy."
"But how come no one else is talking about it."
"Because they silenced everyone! It's just more proof of the conspiracy!"



Fun fact, conspiracy was a term pushed to discredit ( at the time ) correct theories.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/21 00:52:34


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Fun fact, conspiracy was a term pushed to discredit ( at the time ) correct theories.
That's what they want you to think!!!

I, on the other hand, am going to wait and see.

   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





Dudeface wrote:
Karol wrote:
How is it a disadvantage? Theyre cheaper and the d2 weapons spammed against marines will be wasted. If you follow that logic every codex who doesn't have their base troops 2w is now at a disadvantage.

CSM or GK? Because in case of CSM they would be just a sub par version of normal marines. In case of GK they wouldn't be cheaper, there would be a chance they would actualy go up in price if GW decides to put the point hikes in to gear cost, stuff like terminators which are troops would still suffer in a 2W meta.

It is not just 2W, but number of wounds to the points a unit costs. And stuff like csm or GK does coralate with marine points costs a lot more, then lets say orcs or eldar. To use another faction example, if d eldar troops got 2W for being on drugs 24/7 and normal eldar stayed at 1W, and both eldar had the same basic stat line and point cost, then one would be worse then the other.

And if agressors or heavy intercesors suddenly would end up costing 70pts each, they would be very bad too, even with 3W each and a t5.


But tactical marines get a points raise when they go to 2 wounds. If strike squads don't get a points hike and they're priced appropriately for their 1 wound, how is it a nerf?

Will you lose more to orks suddenly with grey knights because a tactical marines is 2 wounds?

If chaos marines didn't go to 2 wounds, which is a pointless thought experiment admittedly, they'd be less resilient than tactical marines but equal points of them would equate to more guns,or more units.

Long and short of it is another book being adjusted doesn't affect your units. If they're a good price now, that doesn't change.


Disagree, troops of the most ubiquitous faction being buffed REDUCES the power of EVERY other faction's troops.
Law of averages my dude, the Primaris Gakkinator with his Heavy Auto Stalker Bolt Carbine Hellincinerator pattern Heavy Auto Bolt rifle will be far better than < prebuffed > troops of < insert faction here >
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Eonfuzz wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It isn't the same gun at all. It isn't even close to the same gun. If you're going to start accusing people of bad faith you might as well do it based on real facts, not fake ones.


It be how it feels tho, firewarrior's special shtick is to have troops with S5 weaponry. Guess what, marines now have troops with S5 weaponry.
And that's how it feels for everything new that gets released

That's not the shtick for Tau though, and many of you have lost that plot.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It isn't the same gun at all. It isn't even close to the same gun. If you're going to start accusing people of bad faith you might as well do it based on real facts, not fake ones.


It be how it feels tho, firewarrior's special shtick is to have troops with S5 weaponry. Guess what, marines now have troops with S5 weaponry.
And that's how it feels for everything new that gets released

That's not the shtick for Tau though, and many of you have lost that plot.


What is Tau's shtick then? 3w t5 models with heavy weapons? Surely marines don't have those either...
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
yukishiro1 wrote:
It isn't the same gun at all. It isn't even close to the same gun. If you're going to start accusing people of bad faith you might as well do it based on real facts, not fake ones.


It be how it feels tho, firewarrior's special shtick is to have troops with S5 weaponry. Guess what, marines now have troops with S5 weaponry.
And that's how it feels for everything new that gets released

That's not the shtick for Tau though, and many of you have lost that plot.



I thought their schtick was coming as close as legally possiable to having gundamns for minis

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






 CommanderWalrus wrote:
so I see a lot of people on the forums right now in various states of either distress or excitement about the current state of warhammer. And i think it's really important right now to simply calm down and be patient for a lot of reasons.
We're in a really weird spot right now. We have a lot of rules and information about 9th edition out and about, but I would like to remind everyone that none of the codexes have come out yet. We're in the "index era" of the current edition, and it is really too early to make judgment about most things. I mean, we all remember how bad things were in the 8th edition index era, right? I've seen people talking, sometimes rather heatedly, about how "x faction is going to be underpowered, y option is going to be completely broken" and I would just like to say that while discussion is well and good(not to mention the point of the forums), it's too early in the game to be freaking out right now. We don't know when the next xenos release is going to be, we don't know if said releases are going to be big and awesome and exciting or disappointing, we don't know if Necrons/Marines will be broken one way or the other, we don't know if it's going to be just marines forever and ever with no end in sight (but to be fair that is looking pretty likely at this point). For all we know they could drop an equally big release for, say, Eldar next month. Not likely, but the point is that we should wait and see at this point.
I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about it, I'm saying we shouldn't despair when we haven't even touched the books yet. I, for one, choose to remain optimistic. It might be blasphemy for me to say this, but GW has proven they can listen to fans, and they have proven they can make sound decisions. Whether or not they do is up in the air, but we shouldn't dismiss it as a possibility.
Sorry about the wall of text. Please be good to each other on here and everywhere else, and remember to follow the forum rules!


How long have you been playing 40k for?

How many times do you want to see GW be total feth ups before you realize it doesn't matter what GW does they are going to feth it up?

Somebody is going to be brokenly over powered. Somebody is going to get the short end of the stick. Everyone is going to get a book and then a faq 2 weeks later that fixes all the broken ass gak they didn't proof read or test before they put out the books. And now that we are in the era of codex supplements it means the book/FAQ bloat is going to hit the ground running.

News flash: No mater what they do it's going to be bad.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






ahh yes the "wait and see" strategem.. You can never win against it. Because as long as time exists you can "wait and see" more

@ OP I applaud you optimisim sir. Despite all the gak Im actualy fairly optimistic. No joke..

Im optimistic that AT SOME POINT in the lifespan of 9th edition the chips will FINALLY fall and we will have some sort "fair and balanced" starting point for MOST (sadly not ALL because GW is GW) armies.

This will be a "calm" like in FFX after Sin dies.. and if youre not aware of what I mean you have lost out bruh.. you have lost out.. SO this calm will only last a max of 6 months before some new broken BS is introduced or some major nerf where everything goes out of whack again and we go back to square one..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/21 01:30:13


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





 Argive wrote:
ahh yes the "wait and see" strategem.. You can never win against it. Because as long as time exists you can "wait and see" more

@ OP I applaud you optimisim sir. Despite all the gak Im actualy fairly optimistic. No joke..

Im optimistic that AT SOME POINT in the lifespan of 9th edition the chips will FINALLY fall and we will have some sort "fair and balanced" starting point for MOST (sadly not ALL because GW is GW) armies.

This will be a "calm" like in FFX after Sin dies.. and if youre not aware of what I mean you have lost out bruh.. you have lost out.. SO this calm will only last a max of 6 months before some new broken BS is introduced or some major nerf where everything goes out of whack again and we go back to square one..


Honestly 8e indexes was the healthiest the game had ever been
   
Made in us
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Noctis Labyrinthus

Removed

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/21 06:41:02


 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest






So yeah - for my group, 9th is kind of hinging on those first two codexes. For us, that's about as far as we're willing to go with "wait and see", but I feel like that's pretty fair.






This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/21 03:32:42


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/21 06:42:50


   
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America

 Lance845 wrote:
 CommanderWalrus wrote:
so I see a lot of people on the forums right now in various states of either distress or excitement about the current state of warhammer. And i think it's really important right now to simply calm down and be patient for a lot of reasons.
We're in a really weird spot right now. We have a lot of rules and information about 9th edition out and about, but I would like to remind everyone that none of the codexes have come out yet. We're in the "index era" of the current edition, and it is really too early to make judgment about most things. I mean, we all remember how bad things were in the 8th edition index era, right? I've seen people talking, sometimes rather heatedly, about how "x faction is going to be underpowered, y option is going to be completely broken" and I would just like to say that while discussion is well and good(not to mention the point of the forums), it's too early in the game to be freaking out right now. We don't know when the next xenos release is going to be, we don't know if said releases are going to be big and awesome and exciting or disappointing, we don't know if Necrons/Marines will be broken one way or the other, we don't know if it's going to be just marines forever and ever with no end in sight (but to be fair that is looking pretty likely at this point). For all we know they could drop an equally big release for, say, Eldar next month. Not likely, but the point is that we should wait and see at this point.
I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about it, I'm saying we shouldn't despair when we haven't even touched the books yet. I, for one, choose to remain optimistic. It might be blasphemy for me to say this, but GW has proven they can listen to fans, and they have proven they can make sound decisions. Whether or not they do is up in the air, but we shouldn't dismiss it as a possibility.
Sorry about the wall of text. Please be good to each other on here and everywhere else, and remember to follow the forum rules!


How long have you been playing 40k for?

How many times do you want to see GW be total feth ups before you realize it doesn't matter what GW does they are going to feth it up?

Somebody is going to be brokenly over powered. Somebody is going to get the short end of the stick. Everyone is going to get a book and then a faq 2 weeks later that fixes all the broken ass gak they didn't proof read or test before they put out the books. And now that we are in the era of codex supplements it means the book/FAQ bloat is going to hit the ground running.

News flash: No mater what they do it's going to be bad.

To answer your question, probably not nearly as long as most people on these forums, so pardon my ignorance. I'm not just new to the forums, I'm relatively new to the game.
I'm very sorry if this makes some people mad, but I actually quite enjoyed playing 8th edition. It was greatly enjoyable, and I genuinely look forward to seeing what happens next, good and bad. So I guess the wait and see mentality works for me because I genuinely have never really used it before. But as I said, this is probably just that I'm new, and haven't had my optimism crushed by the weight of experience yet, so I'm deeply sorry if this comes across as ignorant. The fact that 'wait and see' doesn't really work for everyone else makes me feel kind of bad. I simply wanted to reassure people.
Also please remember everyone to follow the forum rules, thank you!
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






 CommanderWalrus wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 CommanderWalrus wrote:
so I see a lot of people on the forums right now in various states of either distress or excitement about the current state of warhammer. And i think it's really important right now to simply calm down and be patient for a lot of reasons.
We're in a really weird spot right now. We have a lot of rules and information about 9th edition out and about, but I would like to remind everyone that none of the codexes have come out yet. We're in the "index era" of the current edition, and it is really too early to make judgment about most things. I mean, we all remember how bad things were in the 8th edition index era, right? I've seen people talking, sometimes rather heatedly, about how "x faction is going to be underpowered, y option is going to be completely broken" and I would just like to say that while discussion is well and good(not to mention the point of the forums), it's too early in the game to be freaking out right now. We don't know when the next xenos release is going to be, we don't know if said releases are going to be big and awesome and exciting or disappointing, we don't know if Necrons/Marines will be broken one way or the other, we don't know if it's going to be just marines forever and ever with no end in sight (but to be fair that is looking pretty likely at this point). For all we know they could drop an equally big release for, say, Eldar next month. Not likely, but the point is that we should wait and see at this point.
I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about it, I'm saying we shouldn't despair when we haven't even touched the books yet. I, for one, choose to remain optimistic. It might be blasphemy for me to say this, but GW has proven they can listen to fans, and they have proven they can make sound decisions. Whether or not they do is up in the air, but we shouldn't dismiss it as a possibility.
Sorry about the wall of text. Please be good to each other on here and everywhere else, and remember to follow the forum rules!


How long have you been playing 40k for?

How many times do you want to see GW be total feth ups before you realize it doesn't matter what GW does they are going to feth it up?

Somebody is going to be brokenly over powered. Somebody is going to get the short end of the stick. Everyone is going to get a book and then a faq 2 weeks later that fixes all the broken ass gak they didn't proof read or test before they put out the books. And now that we are in the era of codex supplements it means the book/FAQ bloat is going to hit the ground running.

News flash: No mater what they do it's going to be bad.

To answer your question, probably not nearly as long as most people on these forums, so pardon my ignorance. I'm not just new to the forums, I'm relatively new to the game.
I'm very sorry if this makes some people mad, but I actually quite enjoyed playing 8th edition. It was greatly enjoyable, and I genuinely look forward to seeing what happens next, good and bad. So I guess the wait and see mentality works for me because I genuinely have never really used it before. But as I said, this is probably just that I'm new, and haven't had my optimism crushed by the weight of experience yet, so I'm deeply sorry if this comes across as ignorant. The fact that 'wait and see' doesn't really work for everyone else makes me feel kind of bad. I simply wanted to reassure people.
Also please remember everyone to follow the forum rules, thank you!


I wasn't asking you that to be insulting. I asked it because your post read like someone who was relatively new and I didn't want to assume.

Allow me to educate you. One of 40ks biggest issues is whats called first turn advantage. This isn't an issue with one army or another. It isn't an issue with individual unit rules. It's an issue at the very core of how the game plays. Here is how it works. Lets pretend that all things being equal 2 armies with 2000 points of models are capable of killing 400 points of models in a single turn. I go first. You have 1600 points of models left before you make your first move. In return you kill 320 (you have less so you kill less). Now my 1680 kill 336. Your 1264 kills 253 (rounded up). And so on... The gap between what our armies are even capable of will grow exponentially.

You see, an issue at the very core of 40k is that GW is using a turn structure that is over 30 years out of date by design standards and as a result the game degrades into 2 players taking turns swinging the club that is their army at each other. Like in MtG where if you can attack safely and you don't you are an idiot who is wasting an opportunity, in 40k every model you leave on the table is a gun that will be removing your models next turn. And the less models you have the less capable you will be at scoring objectives and removing their models in return. Because you act with your entire army all at once you can focus fire and destroy whatever choice targets you want to remove that you can get to turn 1.

For every step forward GW makes (And believe me 8th was a million times better than 7th) they take 2 steps backwards or refuse to budge on some of the games biggest issues. Just because 40k gets better doesn't yet make 40k good. The shiniest turd still goes in the toilet. And it's only a mater of time before you realize GW is infuriatingly incompetent. Just wait and see.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/21 11:01:31


 
   
Made in us
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Tampa, FL

 Lance845 wrote:
For every step forward GW makes (And believe me 8th was a million times better than 7th) they take 2 steps backwards or refuse to budge on some of the games biggest issues. Just because 40k gets better doesn't yet make 40k good. The shiniest turd still goes in the toilet. And it's only a mater of time before you realize GW is infuriatingly incompetent. Just wait and see.
Exactly. I have been in the hobby since 1996. And there has always been power creep and bloat. It's gotten worse over the years after most of the good designers left. GW by it's nature cannot balance and has no real desire to balance since they still consider the game secondary to the models rather than being intertwined.

There will always be rules that people immediately break upon seeing and need FAQs to fix while you scratch your head thinking how "professional" game designers missed seeing it. There will always be neglected factions since models come first so unless someone decides it's worthwhile to make the needed models you won't get them.

The sad reality is that "wait and see" usually means "what will they feth up this time" rather than the more positive approach that's desired.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/21 12:08:44


- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

So now it's not wait and see it's you can't complain about a faction until you have it's new 9th edition codex in your hands.
So eradicators rules in indomitous being broken. Nope not allowed to say that as no 9th edition codex out yet.

Saying that T5 3W troops rendering the common D2 weapons no no longer working against marines efficently, nope can't say that either

The new weapon stats which in increasing the damage output or a number of weapons will make vehicals weaker, oh wait I need to wait for the codex silly me.

Or you could maybe except that some things are so blindingly obvious and obnoxious to play against currently it's fair for people to complain.


Here's the thing.... You are again making assumptions without complete information and without having played against these units. Yes, HI make D2 less reliable. Does it break the game? That's an assumption. Yes, vehicles could take more damage. Does it mean there are no mitigating factors? That's an assumption. Yes, Eradicators can be obnoxious. Does that mean marines are unstoppable? That's an assumption.

I love here that in your initial statement you repeat exactly what the poster you responded to said (Eradicators are obnoxious), which shows that you did read it, presumably, but then you go ahead and strawman him anyway for fun (Marines are unstoppable). Also hmm I wonder if being able to take W3 models as troops could possibly provide some definitive mechanical advantage going into a meta prepared to face W2 troops with D2 weaponry, it's a real mystery whether that could be the case. I wonder if we could find some existing faction that HAS W3 troops and maybe infer based on their performance whether W3 could be a big game changer.....NAH that'd be silly.

It is not an assumption that there will be no mitigating factors to things like the melta damage increase/general anti-vehicle damage increases. We've seen the statline of almost every marine and necron vehicle, very few are changing to become more durable, and lets just say I consider it a pretty safe assumption that I don't think GW's going to pull some kind of day 1 FAQ handing more durability to non-marine codex units while they wait out 2020.


I'm trying very much to make this not sound insulting, but I will end up using strong language. It isn't that I dislike anyone here. I'm just pretty much over the posts insulting the intelligence of others by pretending goal posts are getting moved when they don't want to appreciate the methodology of working with all the facts.

The Nids I mentioned (supposedly the worst army in the game) --

Went second versus Salamanders. Won 83 to 58.
Went second versus Necrons. Won 78 to 47.
Went second versus Iron Hands. Won 87 to 52.

So maybe he's just running down the clock. Maybe he's just lucky. Maybe there's only one list Nids can play. According to Dakka it is the worst mission pack and going first has huge advantages.

Look, statisticis professor, I'm just saying we need to wait for all the facts. You've given us this program that supposedly only gives Result A 30% of the time, but I did just hit the random button 3 times in a row and got "A" all three times - I find that suspicious personally!

Let's look at the leaderboard:

Spoiler:
#1 - GUO, Slimux, LoC, Bloodletters, BoN, Nurglings, Flamers
#2 - IF - 6 Eradicators, TFC, Stormtalon, Invictors, Impulsors, Grav pod
#3 - AM - Breachers, Disintegrators, Serverys Raiders, Steryilyzors
#4 - Nid horde
#5 - GK - GMDKs, Terminators, Strikes, Ven Dreads
#6 - SW
#7 - Magnus
#8 - BA
#9 - DA & SW
#10 - AM


Just look at that marine dominance, right? The mission pack does not deviate one bit from the standard rules.

4/10 armies in the top ten being armies coming from the upcoming marine core book and 6/10 being some form of marine equivalent I don't think is the epic dunk you maybe believe it to be?

Round 3 highest scores --

Spoiler:
100 - Space Wolves with 3 Eradicators (models not units)
100 - Magnus & Daemon soup
98 - Harlies & CW
95 - DA & SW
95 - AM
92 - All Tzeentch Daemons
92 - GK - went second
90 - Triple disco lords, Noise Marines, Oblits, Heldrakes


Everyone above went first except GK. This was mission #13, which according to Goonhammer only has a 53% advantage for going first (based on limited data).

And I'm also not really certain what you think you're proving here? That going first doesn't seem to have a huge impact? That it does?



There are very few people, at least that I've seen, making any variation of the claims that you seem to be listing here. One or two folks saying you can't bring any vehicle more expensive than an ork buggy into a meta so dominated by eradicators (which I would presume are either referring to or playing in a tournament-style meta, where marines almost always with eradicators are approximately 40% of the field currently, in which case they are right).

Marines fielding primarily W2 troops are currently the meta list setup to beat. If you gear your list to take on low-T High-Sv heavy infantry in general, you have about a 70% chance to be tailoring correctly, which makes it very possible for someone to take a countermeta list with huge holes in it vs other types of matchups and win three in a row by, say, taking a nid list that does nothing but score with tons and tons and tons of morale-immune bodies counting on facing opponents that you believe won't have significant antihorde capabilities. Like for the sake of argument you could maybe take about 200 hormagant/termagant bodies, several tiny units for even more scoring capabilities, and one unit of deep striking genestealer cultists to take out your opponent's one unit of aggressors or one punisher tank or whatever the biggest single anti-horde threat is.

You seem to like using actual data and backing up your statements, which is honestly why I respond to you and don't just put you on ignore like folks who clearly just say stuff and have nothing to back it up. But it seems like when you get frustrated you start engaging with things in bad faith to the point where it's honestly kind of jarring having seen you discuss tactics, or discuss tournament data aggregations dispassionately. Not everyone disagreeing with you is making wild, crazy claims here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Irbis wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

Oh joy if you compair them to intercessors they are fine, funny how those same marine players ignore any comparisons to Kabalites, Guardians, Firewarriors.

that's because marine players can't take kabalites guardians and firewarriors.

So how else do you compair inter codex balance then?

You know, it's funny, because Firewarriors have the exact same gun Heavy Intercessor has. Only they cost 1/5 of what HI do. And I am strangely sure that if situation was reversed, and HI were Tau unit, while FW were SM one, people currently screeching MUHREENZ OPPP!!1! would be right now howling how OP Firewarriors are and how GW hates xenos because such good unit can't be so cheap


Yeah, the exact same gun...if you ignore the fact that the fire warriors' firepower is halved at 16"-30" range, it has an extra point of AP, and an extra 6" of range.

But hey, for a shooting faction you don't care if your guys need to be 15" away or 36" away, right? it's basically the same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/21 11:59:25


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

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 Eonfuzz wrote:
 Argive wrote:
ahh yes the "wait and see" strategem.. You can never win against it. Because as long as time exists you can "wait and see" more

@ OP I applaud you optimisim sir. Despite all the gak Im actualy fairly optimistic. No joke..

Im optimistic that AT SOME POINT in the lifespan of 9th edition the chips will FINALLY fall and we will have some sort "fair and balanced" starting point for MOST (sadly not ALL because GW is GW) armies.

This will be a "calm" like in FFX after Sin dies.. and if youre not aware of what I mean you have lost out bruh.. you have lost out.. SO this calm will only last a max of 6 months before some new broken BS is introduced or some major nerf where everything goes out of whack again and we go back to square one..


Honestly 8e indexes was the healthiest the game had ever been


There's an argument to be made that 3rd ed pre-codex BBB lists era was even more so.

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 Eonfuzz wrote:
 Argive wrote:
ahh yes the "wait and see" strategem.. You can never win against it. Because as long as time exists you can "wait and see" more

@ OP I applaud you optimisim sir. Despite all the gak Im actualy fairly optimistic. No joke..

Im optimistic that AT SOME POINT in the lifespan of 9th edition the chips will FINALLY fall and we will have some sort "fair and balanced" starting point for MOST (sadly not ALL because GW is GW) armies.

This will be a "calm" like in FFX after Sin dies.. and if youre not aware of what I mean you have lost out bruh.. you have lost out.. SO this calm will only last a max of 6 months before some new broken BS is introduced or some major nerf where everything goes out of whack again and we go back to square one..


Honestly 8e indexes was the healthiest the game had ever been


It was also really dull and lacked any character imo.
   
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Dudeface wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
 Argive wrote:
ahh yes the "wait and see" strategem.. You can never win against it. Because as long as time exists you can "wait and see" more

@ OP I applaud you optimisim sir. Despite all the gak Im actualy fairly optimistic. No joke..

Im optimistic that AT SOME POINT in the lifespan of 9th edition the chips will FINALLY fall and we will have some sort "fair and balanced" starting point for MOST (sadly not ALL because GW is GW) armies.

This will be a "calm" like in FFX after Sin dies.. and if youre not aware of what I mean you have lost out bruh.. you have lost out.. SO this calm will only last a max of 6 months before some new broken BS is introduced or some major nerf where everything goes out of whack again and we go back to square one..


Honestly 8e indexes was the healthiest the game had ever been


It was also really dull and lacked any character imo.


INdex era also was stuck with the worst iteration of the core rules for factions and the game, considering that battleforged and other alliy limits were serverly needed.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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