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chaos0xomega wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, unless I'm missing something the app version that you unlock with the code isn't actually the codex, its ONLY the rules accessible within the apps craptastic UI.

I have run into a good number of players who just want the rules and would happily buy a cheaper codex if all they lost was fluff and illustrations.

Yep, that same mentality is part of what drove away casual players from warmachine and turned its community into a competitive cesspool. GW is quite right to not entertain a "rules only" style release.

Hm... they have entertained it, tbh. Only they have put a hurdle of "with your rules purchase for the app, you also get a book. Use it as a doorstop".

I mean, it's not like they can force them to read them or anything. They can just force them to pay full price for it.

 Albertorius wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 privateer4hire wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, unless I'm missing something the app version that you unlock with the code isn't actually the codex, its ONLY the rules accessible within the apps craptastic UI.

I have run into a good number of players who just want the rules and would happily buy a cheaper codex if all they lost was fluff and illustrations.

Yep, that same mentality is part of what drove away casual players from warmachine and turned its community into a competitive cesspool. GW is quite right to not entertain a "rules only" style release.

Hm... they have entertained it, tbh. Only they have put a hurdle of "with your rules purchase for the app, you also get a book. Use it as a doorstop".

Right, the point is that there is no way for a player to pay *less* in order to get rules-only content. They still need to buy the full rulebook, with fluff and all.

What happened with warmachine was privateer gave people the option to purchase all the rules for their faction, updated in perpetuity until the next edition for something like $5-10 OR you could basically buy all the factions with the same deal for like $60-80. By comparison, each factions main rulebook which contained fluff, artwork, etc. was like $40, and then each subsequent expansion rulebook was also another $40 - but unlike the faction rulebook, the expansion rulebook would only ever contain like 5-10 pages worth of rules for your faction, because those books split rules across all factions instead of just focusing on one.

As you can imagine, it was phenomenally more expensive and less convenient to buy the books than to buy the "rules only" releases, as a result pretty much everyone just bought the rules only option, even a lot of people who enjoyed the fluff and storylines, etc. Only a handful bothered with the books, to the point that Privateer Press discontinued them almost entirely because they were losing money producing them as a result of so many people simply not buying them. Over time this caused a divorce between the narrative and the game, which resulted in casual players losing interest in it as the community became 100% game focused (not that the narrative/hobby side of things was ever particularly big to begin with, but it was at least there), and eventually when 40k started picking back up again all those guys rushed back to it.

I'd argue that PP didn't make one choice that changed things - it was a collection of ideas and approaches that, each on their own was a minor impact, but collected together resulted in a shift.

I'd have no trouble with GW putting out nice HC full color fluff guides and moving the rules online.

But alas...

 Overread wrote:
I'd argue that PP didn't make one choice that changed things - it was a collection of ideas and approaches that, each on their own was a minor impact, but collected together resulted in a shift.

I'd argue that MkIII not being good on release is what drove most people away. I hear they've pretty much No Man's Sky'd the actual rules, but for most people it's too late, especially with the near End Times level change the Infernals brought.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I'd argue that PP didn't make one choice that changed things - it was a collection of ideas and approaches that, each on their own was a minor impact, but collected together resulted in a shift.

I'd argue that MkIII not being good on release is what drove most people away. I hear they've pretty much No Man's Sky'd the actual rules, but for most people it's too late, especially with the near End Times level change the Infernals brought.

Guild Ball killed em, but still ended officially before they did.

 AduroT wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I'd argue that PP didn't make one choice that changed things - it was a collection of ideas and approaches that, each on their own was a minor impact, but collected together resulted in a shift.

I'd argue that MkIII not being good on release is what drove most people away. I hear they've pretty much No Man's Sky'd the actual rules, but for most people it's too late, especially with the near End Times level change the Infernals brought.

Guild Ball killed em, but still ended officially before they did.

Not sure I can agree. Since MkIII has released, I've yet to actually see or hear about people PLAY Guild Ball in the 4 states I've lived. Most former Warmahordies I've met went back to 40K.

Guild Ball was very much advertised here als WM/H for people with less spare time and nearly the whole WM/H community played it (either as their only game or next to WM/H)

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I'd argue that PP didn't make one choice that changed things - it was a collection of ideas and approaches that, each on their own was a minor impact, but collected together resulted in a shift.

I'd argue that MkIII not being good on release is what drove most people away. I hear they've pretty much No Man's Sky'd the actual rules, but for most people it's too late, especially with the near End Times level change the Infernals brought.

Warmachine was on its way out before MkIII hit. At the tail end of Mk2 I was buying thousands of dollars of brand new Warmachine for 60-80% off from stores that were discontinuing support for the range and places like miniature market that were cleaning out their distributors inventory for pennies on the dollar. The game had stopped selling well before it became obvious to most people.

As far as Guild Ball, I've never seen it played once. I'm not convinced it had anything to do with WMHDs demise.

I'd argue that PP didn't make one choice that changed things - it was a collection of ideas and approaches that, each on their own was a minor impact, but collected together resulted in a shift.

You're right, there was no one issue, but I would say that doubling down on gameplay (and competitive gameplay at that) and quietly withdrawing the narrative/fluff aspects of the setting had a negative impact on the community that primed it to implode.

There was a very vocal group who left WM for Guild Ball. Guild Ball basically took one core mechanics of WM, Focus allocation, and built a new game around it. The year it came out (or the year after? I dunno, super early on) they rented a big conference room in the same hotel Warmachine Weekend was being held on the same weekend. It itself didn’t make a Huge dent in Warmachine, but it did contribute to their lull in a conspicuous way, and caused Privateer Press to panic release MK3 early before it was finished. And unfinished it blatantly was, which greatly accelerated their decline. Shortly there after GW entered their happy PR phase, which gave people an excuse to return to that game.

As far as fluffless rules, not a huge fan. When PP did that and stopped doing the big books with the storyline progression, the fluff mostly died for me. They put the fluff in novels, which were all so heavily Cignar focused and my faction just stopped getting real updates.

So yeah, I don’t want to have to buy physical books. AoS and 8th edition (and so many other games) trained me in how nice it is to have digital iBooks/PDFs of everything and now they’re pulling the rug out and backtracking and I don’t like it and won’t participate in it.

Guild ball did the pure competition play better, and so WM's shift to more competitive focus but with flubbing the first release saw the competitive people go to guild ball, while the warhammer 8th renaissance recaptured a lot of neckbeards mad at how busted 7th was.

But WM had issues wince its page 13 days, that set the tone for that community that has plagued it since and I am not sure PP has the money to survive the dramatic shift required to purge that kind of mindset from their games.

stratigo wrote:
Guild ball did the pure competition play better, and so WM's shift to more competitive focus but with flubbing the first release saw the competitive people go to guild ball, while the warhammer 8th renaissance recaptured a lot of neckbeards mad at how busted 7th was.

But WM had issues wince its page 13 days, that set the tone for that community that has plagued it since and I am not sure PP has the money to survive the dramatic shift required to purge that kind of mindset from their games.

It's Pg5 and anyone that actually took it seriously instead of the tongue in cheek it was actually written in tended to be pushed out of most gaming communities very quick. Yes, Internet Tough Guys loved to throw around Pg5 as an excuse, but again, that's because they were incapable of being able to tell it was sarcasm and tended to be the same "Ummm, ackshually..." neck beards that ruined the Star Wars fandom.

 Platuan4th wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Guild ball did the pure competition play better, and so WM's shift to more competitive focus but with flubbing the first release saw the competitive people go to guild ball, while the warhammer 8th renaissance recaptured a lot of neckbeards mad at how busted 7th was.

But WM had issues wince its page 13 days, that set the tone for that community that has plagued it since and I am not sure PP has the money to survive the dramatic shift required to purge that kind of mindset from their games.

It's Pg5 and anyone that actually took it seriously instead of the tongue in cheek it was actually written in tended to be pushed out of most gaming communities very quick. Yes, Internet Tough Guys loved to throw around Pg5 as an excuse, but again, that's because they were incapable of being able to tell it was sarcasm and tended to be the same "Ummm, ackshually..." neck beards that ruined the Star Wars fandom.

Star wars ruined star wars fandom son..

 Platuan4th wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Guild ball did the pure competition play better, and so WM's shift to more competitive focus but with flubbing the first release saw the competitive people go to guild ball, while the warhammer 8th renaissance recaptured a lot of neckbeards mad at how busted 7th was.

But WM had issues wince its page 13 days, that set the tone for that community that has plagued it since and I am not sure PP has the money to survive the dramatic shift required to purge that kind of mindset from their games.

It's Pg5 and anyone that actually took it seriously instead of the tongue in cheek it was actually written in tended to be pushed out of most gaming communities very quick. Yes, Internet Tough Guys loved to throw around Pg5 as an excuse, but again, that's because they were incapable of being able to tell it was sarcasm and tended to be the same "Ummm, ackshually..." neck beards that ruined the Star Wars fandom.

But they still very much existed and like, one of those dudes will sour a community and drive anyone not like themselves away until the entire community is just like him. Gatekeepres and bigots damage communities until the space resembles only what they want unless they are hard stopped.

 Argive wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Guild ball did the pure competition play better, and so WM's shift to more competitive focus but with flubbing the first release saw the competitive people go to guild ball, while the warhammer 8th renaissance recaptured a lot of neckbeards mad at how busted 7th was.

But WM had issues wince its page 13 days, that set the tone for that community that has plagued it since and I am not sure PP has the money to survive the dramatic shift required to purge that kind of mindset from their games.

It's Pg5 and anyone that actually took it seriously instead of the tongue in cheek it was actually written in tended to be pushed out of most gaming communities very quick. Yes, Internet Tough Guys loved to throw around Pg5 as an excuse, but again, that's because they were incapable of being able to tell it was sarcasm and tended to be the same "Ummm, ackshually..." neck beards that ruined the Star Wars fandom.

Star wars ruined star wars fandom son..

You got that one reversed, chief.

I'm feeling a tad burned out from the rate of edition changes, which is ironic given back in the 'good old days' we pined for a release schedule like we have now. Even my 12-year son is annoyed that he might need to buy new codexes soon, again.

When you’re release schedule is shorter than a 12-year olds’ attention span you know you’ve got problems!

 Platuan4th wrote:

It's Pg5 and anyone that actually took it seriously instead of the tongue in cheek it was actually written in tended to be pushed out of most gaming communities very quick. Yes, Internet Tough Guys loved to throw around Pg5 as an excuse, but again, that's because they were incapable of being able to tell it was sarcasm and tended to be the same "Ummm, ackshually..." neck beards that ruined the Star Wars fandom.

I've heard way too many horror stories of potential new Warmachine players getting absolutely SLAMMED in their very first demo game to believe that local communities did anything to push out those super competitive "takes Page 5 seriously" players. Yeah it was absolutely meant to be tongue in cheek, but keep in mind that a lot of people can't read subtlety at all. It doesn't help that Warmachine's rules and interactions punish even small mistakes and that the game had a very, very steep learning curve.

As for the codexes no longer being available in pdf or ePub format, that's a serious accessibility issue, even if you do get the rules and datasheets via the app once you buy the physical book. I know plenty of people with serious vision issues, and being able to zoom in and read text at whatever size most helps you out is invaluable.

Isn't it like $1300 if you buy all the army books and supplements, not counting the addons like PA?

Either way it's totally ludicrous, this model is intolerably dated for 2020, and I sincerely discourage any purchase of any of these printed books.

I wonder if they will release a digital version months after the physical releases to get that money first.

 Vash108 wrote:
I wonder if they will release a digital version months after the physical releases to get that money first.

They were getting all that money anyway though..

it'd make more sense to release digital first "due to the pandemic" and then get more money for hard copies later

I can’t read the small print in the 40K books under anything less than perfect bright daylight, and even then... not being able to buy the digital book is a real slap in the face.

Very disappointed that the unlocked rules in the app don’t even have hotlinks or rollover summaries.
Also, I can’t seem to find the points either.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Very disappointed that the unlocked rules in the app don’t even have hotlinks or rollover summaries.
Also, I can’t seem to find the points either.

Won’t have points till they put the army builder in.

Mostly I’m not happy about the lack of links and cross-references. That’s like one of the most significant advantages ebooks have and they just haven’t bothered.

 AduroT wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Very disappointed that the unlocked rules in the app don’t even have hotlinks or rollover summaries.
Also, I can’t seem to find the points either.

Won’t have points till they put the army builder in.

They STILL haven't figured this out?

Hahahah, oh wow.

the points are in the data sheets. What points are you not able to see in the app?

They totally do have points! I had heard it was not part of the data sheets but now that I’ve got mine and have time to check it out I apparently heard wrong.

Here’s a complaint though, unit data sheets don’t list all their weapons, only the ones that cost points to upgrade to.

 AduroT wrote:
They totally do have points! I had heard it was not part of the data sheets but now that I’ve got mine and have time to check it out I apparently heard wrong.

Here’s a complaint though, unit data sheets don’t list all their weapons, only the ones that cost points to upgrade to.

I only have necron codex but have not noticed this. Could you give an example data sheet of where it happens?

For instance I am looking at necron Warriors and the options for Gauss Flayers and Gauss reapers are both there on the datasheet. Both cost 0pts, and flayers are the default, reaoers are the 'upgrade'