Switch Theme:

How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Implacable Skitarii




Bath

 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
Fun fact about body armor: Those anti bomb armor suits you see people wearing in some situations? They are really only meant to keep your body intact so its much easier for the the forensics and clean up teams to deal with.

it's essentially meant to be a very expensive body bag.

Spoiler:

That's really not true. They're designed to take the edge off the blast.
Sure it wont help you if a 155mm shell IED goes off in your face, but it will save you from a smaller blast or from a larger blast further away.

What I do find amazing when reading memoirs of war and such is just how random death is.
On one occasion a man will take a 9 bullets to his chest and neck, and survive. On another they'll get shot in the arm once and die.
Not only that, but the comparatively few casualties that often occur in even hopeless last stands. Probably the most famous example is Omaha beach, renown as a total slaughter where the first waves were almost completely destroyed, yet they suffered less than 50% dead and wounded.
Wargames typically fudge this reality. Instead every small skirmish results in 75%+ casualties on the losing side, many entire squads are wiped to a man. Because they don't have proper suppression mechanics and often don't have any suppression mechanics at all.
Then, any wargames which introduce a campaign have to remedy that and fudge numbers so that one side doesn't have half their army dead every game.
For example, in Necromunda you can take a full multi-melta blast the face and fall into a molten slag furnace and surface with minor injuries almost every time. Not only that but you can crawl back to base despite the enemy gang completely surrounding you.


its basically because gamers (in general) are intrested in, and looking for, a "cinematic" battle that is has a clear, decisive winner & looser, with the looser vanquished and beyond recovery. a more "realistic" firefight that consists of two armies both on their belt buckles, sat several hundred meters apart taking pot shots at fleeting targets for 6 hours, before one side withdraws, just isn't as "exciting".

In campaigns, we run into the problem that most fights were indecisive skirmishes between small units and large "set piece" battles of the type most wargames represent are very rare. When they did happen, they tended to be decisive and no comeback for the loser was possible. But that's not fun, so we fudge it.

your right, real world casualty figures are often much lower than Hollywood would have you believe, but its important to remember that most official casualty reports are for the unit as a whole, which almost always includes troops not involved in the fight. For example, the 1st infantry division, one of the two that stormed Omaha, did so with just one of its three regiments, and only about 3,000 troops out of over 15,000* actually stormed a defended beach, and so the casualty reports (which are normally reported at for the division as a whole) can dilute the reality of how badly damaged the combat units are. the "troops to tail ratio" goes up dramatically as the unit size increases, so casualty reports for corps and field armies include vast numbers of soldiers who almost never get shot at, again diluting the apparent losses of the combat arms.

In ww2, to support a division's roughly 10,000 "fighting troops" (ie soldiers whose actual job in the army was to kill the enemy), it took about 35,000 men total, spread between the division itself, the corps and army it was subordinate too, plus support staff deep in the rear, in England, and even back in the US, involved in training, medical care and recuperation, rear area logistics, etc). this figure is known as the "divisional slice", and is and was a important metric in war planning as it gives you a better idea of the total troops needed to achieve an effect)


*for those wondering about how a difference between the size of the regiments and the size of the division, the Div includes a lot of things like regiment sized formation of heavy artillery, plus engineers, signals units, logistic, medical, mechanics, Anti-air and other service troops, etc, that are needed to support the fighting infantry, but dont fall under the command of the 3 regimental combat teams.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/21 12:56:53


Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
500pts
1000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I doubt guard could stand against CSM. Especially veterans of the long war.

CSM wouldn’t engage in a battle if they didn’t think they could win it and I doubt they would employ trench warfare against the IG.

If CSM got up close, which is the preferred tactic of many CSM, they would tear IG to prices quickly. Deathclaw drop pods or some other form of attack where you don’t see them coming would render the IG defenceless
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






mrFickle wrote:
I doubt guard could stand against CSM. Especially veterans of the long war.

CSM wouldn’t engage in a battle if they didn’t think they could win it and I doubt they would employ trench warfare against the IG.

If CSM got up close, which is the preferred tactic of many CSM, they would tear IG to prices quickly. Deathclaw drop pods or some other form of attack where you don’t see them coming would render the IG defenceless
You talk big for someone within artillery barrage range.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/22 13:46:36


Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++List of documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 9th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities || Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. || Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages.  
   
Made in gb
Implacable Skitarii




Bath

mrFickle wrote:
I doubt guard could stand against CSM. Especially veterans of the long war.

CSM wouldn’t engage in a battle if they didn’t think they could win it and I doubt they would employ trench warfare against the IG.

If CSM got up close, which is the preferred tactic of many CSM, they would tear IG to prices quickly. Deathclaw drop pods or some other form of attack where you don’t see them coming would render the IG defenceless



and then the IG flatten the area with arty rounds shooting "final defensive fire"/"broken arrow" fire missions, since they know, with a high degree of certainty, the co-ordinates of the position.

but your right, CSM would normally not enguage a battle they couldn't win. the fact that many, many worlds surrounded the eye of terror for thousands of years without being slaughtered every decade or two tells us that the IG can and does stand off CSM raids on a regular basis.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "
But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.
"Tommy", Rudyard Kipling
500pts
1000 pts
 
   
Made in de
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Nuremberg

We had a thread here recently with people arguing apparently earnestly that 5 space marines could conquer an entire planet.

So I mean, knowing that Imperial Space Marines are about twice as powerful as the average traitor marine, it should only take a squad of 10 to conquer most planets.

I guess it might take twelve or so if the planet is well defended or particularly big.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/22 15:07:34


   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Depending on who is telling the story a space marine can be as good as superman, but that is just silly. I think the truth is they are superior to normal humans physically but and mentally and have better gear..which is great but they still die like anything else if you shoot them with the right gun. Shooting them with lasguns is pretty dumb and liable to get your head blown off before you can do any damage...however like Jurgen in Ciaphas Cane series does...shoot him with a meltagun and you bagged yourself a space marine kill.

Basically the Space marines are not that godly when you use the right weapons. Heavy weapons are the big winner against space marines, autocannons, heavy bolters and the like will shred a space marine without much trouble.

In short - With the proper weapons Imperial guard can beat anything. However if you only give your guard lasguns they can't stand up to heavy infantry of any kind very well. Anyone using mass lasgun's is basically just trying to get lucky throwing men at them...but this is a extremely poor use of men IMO.
   
Made in au
Storm Trooper with Maglight







To be effective marines and csm need to make full use of deployment options against softer and more critical targets. Even then it would be tough(any commander worth his salt would recognise this and cover such areas with artillery so any potential attack would be severly punished). They do not by themselves have the numbers to fight guard symmetrically. Unless (and they really should because chaos NEEDs this) they have their own regiments of guard equivalents(tyrants legion was on the right track IMO). Cultists are not proffessional or generally equpited well enough to do this, they need real regular soldiers, logistics, artillery etc. Then they could totally fight guard with the marines being a potent force multiplyer rather than the main hitting force.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/26 22:58:32


   
Made in us
Nimble Pistolier





A squad of CSM in the open are soft targets for anything like a Leman Russ, a Valkyrie, or artillery. That's what's going to be doing the work, not the lasguns.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/26 22:55:49


Courage and occasionally honor.
 
   
Made in ca
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot



Canada

The role of the noble lasgun is simply to extend the range of the Imperial Guard's greatest weapon. Chaos Space Marines stand little chance against the bayonet.



All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
Humorless Arbite





Maine

US Army training was about the same. I remember being instructed during a demo with the drill Sergeant on H2H rifle techniques to "swing like you have a pair". I was the attacker, a chopping strike from high Guard and he was defending with a classic high block. His M-16a1 handgards were not up to the task and shattered. The gas tube was mangled. He looked at the rifle in disgust and said " that's why I'm a tanker....".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And THAT is why the CSM have such a hard time with the guard. They have a fething tank division for every individual CSM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 18:16:28


Voxed from Salamander 84-24020
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Background
Go to: