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Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 alextroy wrote:
Could it be because there is a significant difference between an Index covering the few units in Marine Armies X, Y, and Z and an producing an Index to overhaul of a whole army? It's not like they didn't produce the updated FAQs covering common weapons and standardizing the "on a Roll of 1" mechanic for all armies.



Gadzilla gave you the full extent of the index that wouldve been needed for CSM/TS/DG

Add stuff like "fusion weapons now do D6+2 at half range, increase cost by x" for all the equivalent weapons and it wouldve been much better. As it is, the only army that got an index was the one that got their books the earliest.

Admech Lucius
Drukhari
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Thousand sons
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The issue isn't that gw made PDFs to tide loyalists over until they got their new books, it's that they didnt do it for anyone else. What stopped them from creating PDFs for some of the factions currently suffering the most from the change to 9th edition? Or from just fixing the easy ones? CSM, Thousand Sons, Grey Knights: Add 1 wound, increase points by X. How hard is that?

They do such kind of updates only in a new codex? when was the last time GW made an update like an WD list or CA list that brought the army up, and now down? I think it was DW veterans becoming really good for short time in 8th, and that is more or less it.

Tau for example had their annoying drone armies, and GW never fixed their other units, to make them want to play something else. And then 9th fixed the tau in a way probably no one would have wanted, unless they really hated tau as a faction.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Karol wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The issue isn't that gw made PDFs to tide loyalists over until they got their new books, it's that they didnt do it for anyone else. What stopped them from creating PDFs for some of the factions currently suffering the most from the change to 9th edition? Or from just fixing the easy ones? CSM, Thousand Sons, Grey Knights: Add 1 wound, increase points by X. How hard is that?

They do such kind of updates only in a new codex? when was the last time GW made an update like an WD list or CA list that brought the army up, and now down? I think it was DW veterans becoming really good for short time in 8th, and that is more or less it.

Tau for example had their annoying drone armies, and GW never fixed their other units, to make them want to play something else. And then 9th fixed the tau in a way probably no one would have wanted, unless they really hated tau as a faction.


I don't get your point here. Do you think that GW cannot change how they do things?

Regardless of that, IIRC instances like this, with massive army/game-wide profile changes across codex-compatible editions and a GW who regularly puts out balance changes and FAQs are fairly rare. I can't really think of a precedent.
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 alextroy wrote:
Could it be because there is a significant difference between an Index covering the few units in Marine Armies X, Y, and Z and an producing an Index to overhaul of a whole army? It's not like they didn't produce the updated FAQs covering common weapons and standardizing the "on a Roll of 1" mechanic for all armies.

Who said anything about "overhauling entire armies"? Just give CSM, Thousand Sons, and Grey Knights their additional wound and increase their cost accordingly. Done. No new rules, strategems, faction traits, etc. Just the extra wound. Then give the same adjustments to Xenos weapons that their Imperial/Chaos counterparts received. They already know what they're going to do, they could have given everyone a "get you by" PDF just like they did loyalists, or how they fixed For The Greater Good for Tau. And there would still be all those faction traits, strategems, etc left to sell the new codexes when they eventually come.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Could it be because there is a significant difference between an Index covering the few units in Marine Armies X, Y, and Z and an producing an Index to overhaul of a whole army? It's not like they didn't produce the updated FAQs covering common weapons and standardizing the "on a Roll of 1" mechanic for all armies.

Who said anything about "overhauling entire armies"? Just give CSM, Thousand Sons, and Grey Knights their additional wound and increase their cost accordingly. Done. No new rules, strategems, faction traits, etc. Just the extra wound. Then give the same adjustments to Xenos weapons that their Imperial/Chaos counterparts received. They already know what they're going to do, they could have given everyone a "get you by" PDF just like they did loyalists, or how they fixed For The Greater Good for Tau. And there would still be all those faction traits, strategems, etc left to sell the new codexes when they eventually come.


But that would require input from GW into something that is not space marine related.. It ain't happening.. Busy writing those chapter X in the next WD rules as well as making new limited-run SM characters.

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in us
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Tacoma, WA, USA

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Could it be because there is a significant difference between an Index covering the few units in Marine Armies X, Y, and Z and an producing an Index to overhaul of a whole army? It's not like they didn't produce the updated FAQs covering common weapons and standardizing the "on a Roll of 1" mechanic for all armies.

Who said anything about "overhauling entire armies"? Just give CSM, Thousand Sons, and Grey Knights their additional wound and increase their cost accordingly. Done. No new rules, strategems, faction traits, etc. Just the extra wound. Then give the same adjustments to Xenos weapons that their Imperial/Chaos counterparts received. They already know what they're going to do, they could have given everyone a "get you by" PDF just like they did loyalists, or how they fixed For The Greater Good for Tau. And there would still be all those faction traits, strategems, etc left to sell the new codexes when they eventually come.
They did half of what you wanted in the FAQ. You just have to wait for the codex for the other half
   
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 alextroy wrote:
They did half of what you wanted in the FAQ. You just have to wait for the codex for the other half

Why?
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Because you already have the point cost of the new models, without the new stats

(No, we aren't serious... 14 points 2 Wound CSM would be a nightmare.)
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 alextroy wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Could it be because there is a significant difference between an Index covering the few units in Marine Armies X, Y, and Z and an producing an Index to overhaul of a whole army? It's not like they didn't produce the updated FAQs covering common weapons and standardizing the "on a Roll of 1" mechanic for all armies.

Who said anything about "overhauling entire armies"? Just give CSM, Thousand Sons, and Grey Knights their additional wound and increase their cost accordingly. Done. No new rules, strategems, faction traits, etc. Just the extra wound. Then give the same adjustments to Xenos weapons that their Imperial/Chaos counterparts received. They already know what they're going to do, they could have given everyone a "get you by" PDF just like they did loyalists, or how they fixed For The Greater Good for Tau. And there would still be all those faction traits, strategems, etc left to sell the new codexes when they eventually come.
They did half of what you wanted in the FAQ. You just have to wait for the codex for the other half


There is no reason to update PFs but not PKs
There also is no reason to update deathwing terminators but not chaos terminators.

The index pdfs were nothing but space marine favoritism.

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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Here's my view, having last played in 2nd edition, and now returning to the hobby, building army and learning the rules for 9th edition, until lock-down ends and I can play a game.

Firstly I was unimpressed with the core rulebook's readability. The rules section is very dry, and there is no index. the rules themselves are fine with a couple of exceptions, and I like they have codified three different ways to play the game. My main complaint is that a lot of rules are written with no explanations of why are what they seek to represent, and very few examples of how they are used.
The artwork, photos of minis and fluff is great, if a little too slick sometimes. The aesthetic is far better than cartoony 2nd ed but doesn't have the feel of 1st.

So then I moved on to reading the rules for the army I want to play and at first was a little overwhelmed. I made a list of all the sources of special rules to remind me what to consider and it is excessive:

Datacards and Wargear*
Psychic powers
Regimental Doctrines
Warlord Traits
Relics
Orders
Tank Aces
Strategems

However, once I had a handle on it, I found it was fun list building and coming up with combos and things. I would never attempt to learn more than one codex though, that seems a route to madness. I found an enjoyable way to look at other armies is just to watch battle reports as codexes are released.

I am not bothered about 'gotchas', it's all part of the fun. Plus each trick is only new once, and unless you are lucky enough to be playing different opponents every time the disadvantage will be finite. Yes I'd like to go to tournaments and be competative, but not super-competative. I don't actually want to win a prize except for 'biggest bar tab'.

*there are so many weapons now! I remember when different armies had to share. Everyone had bolters or lasguns. A particularly elegent solution for Tyranids in Rogue Trader, to save writing more rules for their weapons, was to say that they had grown 'count as' weapons that were the equivalents of the basic weapons, just modelled differently.


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Planetary Defence Force with alternative models and converted vehicles 
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Could it be because there is a significant difference between an Index covering the few units in Marine Armies X, Y, and Z and an producing an Index to overhaul of a whole army? It's not like they didn't produce the updated FAQs covering common weapons and standardizing the "on a Roll of 1" mechanic for all armies.

Who said anything about "overhauling entire armies"? Just give CSM, Thousand Sons, and Grey Knights their additional wound and increase their cost accordingly. Done. No new rules, strategems, faction traits, etc. Just the extra wound. Then give the same adjustments to Xenos weapons that their Imperial/Chaos counterparts received. They already know what they're going to do, they could have given everyone a "get you by" PDF just like they did loyalists, or how they fixed For The Greater Good for Tau. And there would still be all those faction traits, strategems, etc left to sell the new codexes when they eventually come.
They did half of what you wanted in the FAQ. You just have to wait for the codex for the other half


There is no reason to update PFs but not PKs
There also is no reason to update deathwing terminators but not chaos terminators.

The index pdfs were nothing but space marine favoritism.


The DA/BA/SW/DW supplements were 100% SM favoritism. Those things could have come 2 years later and no one would have had any issues. Actually, this will gain them a double blame. One now for flooding us with too many SM releases, and one toward the end of the edition when all SM factions will suck (again), because we all know what it competitively means to get your books at the start of the edition.

The PDFs though were a necessary step in order to consolidate all marine flavors in a single common book. Again, leaving a model with old rules is one thing. Leaving it with no rules is another.

A FAQ to update a few weapons and profiles would have been nice, and GW is to blame for not providing it.

That FAQ would have been nice to have... so nice that considering the price we pay for the models, we should have got it.

The PDFs though were structurally necessary. There were parts of the game (4 factions) that simply didn't exist without them. 65 datasheets left undefined.

I mean, we have no shortage of options to bare our fangs at GW. Customer's satisfaction is clearly not their focus.

No need to blame them also for the few things that they actually do decently.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/21 14:56:56


 
   
Made in de
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It's not that I think that they shouldn't have done it for space marines.

I'm just saying that just updating all the equivalents of flamers, meltas, plasma weapons, powerfists and chainfists, power swords, power axes, chainswords and whatever things I've missed across all codices would have been really low hanging fruits.
Thousand sons would have required all of two datasheets to get up two speed, CSM would have required 9 (including fallen), two of those being rubrics and plague marines.

How many datasheets did index for SW and DA have again?

Instead of filling a PDF with warlord traits, stratagems and relics for an army that already gets piles of that from Codex: Space Marines, they could just have spend a bare minimum of effort on all the other codices.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/21 17:12:11


Earth is not flat
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We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
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Tacoma, WA, USA

In your perfect world, they would have. In this real world they didn't and never have.

They did step up their game from the bad old days when two different Space Marine armies had different rules for the same wargear (4th/5th Edition) or the same wargear for Marines and Imperial Guard (for a time in late 8th).

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
   
Made in us
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In your perfect world, they would have. In this real world they didn't and never have.

Then that's something that GW needs to fix.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Don't settle for gruel when you're paying for stew just because you could've gotten an empty bowl instead.
   
Made in de
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 alextroy wrote:
In your perfect world, they would have. In this real world they didn't and never have.

They did step up their game from the bad old days when two different Space Marine armies had different rules for the same wargear (4th/5th Edition) or the same wargear for Marines and Imperial Guard (for a time in late 8th).

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.


When you go above and beyond what was necessary for some armies and completely ignore others at the same time, I don't consider that good.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 waefre_1 wrote:

Don't settle for gruel when you're paying for stew just because you could've gotten an empty bowl instead.




I love that GW whole shtick is serving up empty bowls..
All the while the community goes "nom nom nom* delicious sir. Please can I have some more?"

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





 alextroy wrote:
In your perfect world, they would have. In this real world they didn't and never have.

They did step up their game from the bad old days when two different Space Marine armies had different rules for the same wargear (4th/5th Edition) or the same wargear for Marines and Imperial Guard (for a time in late 8th).

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.


The perfect? Them supporting armies other than muhreens should be the basic standard.
The "Perfect" would be them doing a large 8e index style change across all faction to get everyone up to standard.
   
Made in us
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 Eonfuzz wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
In your perfect world, they would have. In this real world they didn't and never have.

They did step up their game from the bad old days when two different Space Marine armies had different rules for the same wargear (4th/5th Edition) or the same wargear for Marines and Imperial Guard (for a time in late 8th).

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.


The perfect? Them supporting armies other than muhreens should be the basic standard.
The "Perfect" would be them doing a large 8e index style change across all faction to get everyone up to standard.


Then you'd be forcing the to do a half-assed job like last time instead of spending the time they need on real books.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
In your perfect world, they would have. In this real world they didn't and never have.

They did step up their game from the bad old days when two different Space Marine armies had different rules for the same wargear (4th/5th Edition) or the same wargear for Marines and Imperial Guard (for a time in late 8th).

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.


The perfect? Them supporting armies other than muhreens should be the basic standard.
The "Perfect" would be them doing a large 8e index style change across all faction to get everyone up to standard.


Then you'd be forcing the to do a half-assed job like last time instead of spending the time they need on real books.


Half assed? I think the index era was probably the best balance the game had. Or at least, was the most interesting as *All* players were trying new things every game.
Now it's just timmy with his mehreen codex trying things, and maybe in 2 years someone else can.

I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.
   
Made in us
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 Eonfuzz wrote:
Now it's just timmy with his mehreen codex trying things


This is objectively not correct. And the index wasn't a magically balanced time. It was rife with issues from flyers, spam, and Bobby. Remember when people were taking almost nothing but Razowing Flocks or Flyrants? Lists today are ridiculously more balance and varied today than they were back then.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Eonfuzz wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
In your perfect world, they would have. In this real world they didn't and never have.

They did step up their game from the bad old days when two different Space Marine armies had different rules for the same wargear (4th/5th Edition) or the same wargear for Marines and Imperial Guard (for a time in late 8th).

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.


The perfect? Them supporting armies other than muhreens should be the basic standard.
The "Perfect" would be them doing a large 8e index style change across all faction to get everyone up to standard.


Then you'd be forcing the to do a half-assed job like last time instead of spending the time they need on real books.


Half assed? I think the index era was probably the best balance the game had. Or at least, was the most interesting as *All* players were trying new things every game.
Now it's just timmy with his mehreen codex trying things, and maybe in 2 years someone else can.


Given you're so busy hating marines, I suppose it was fairly easy to miss that we Necron players have been busy trying new things for the past 6 months or so.
And the Death Guard for the last month.
You've also missed the memo that the Dark Eldar are coming. Next month I think. Definitely sooner than 2 years though.
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Eonfuzz wrote:
Now it's just timmy with his mehreen codex trying things


This is objectively not correct. And the index wasn't a magically balanced time. It was rife with issues from flyers, spam, and Bobby. Remember when people were taking almost nothing but Razowing Flocks or Flyrants? Lists today are ridiculously more balance and varied today than they were back then.


Which is why I said "... or at least ...". Don't forget that outside of dakka there is still the casual scene and the index was pretty great for that.

I also really feel like Stratgems (late stage 8e and now 9) are basically an attack against casual players. A lot of them don't care, want or use the Stratagems
   
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8th index was nuts and people like to forget that. Wild wild west.

Does anyone remember malefic lords????? just cuz it was better than SM2.0 IH, castellan, etc doesn't make it balanced or better. The problems were just shifted around.
   
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ccs wrote:

Given you're so busy hating marines, I suppose it was fairly easy to miss that we Necron players have been busy trying new things for the past 6 months or so.
And the Death Guard for the last month.
You've also missed the memo that the Dark Eldar are coming. Next month I think. Definitely sooner than 2 years though.


Right, sorry. Sometimes I forget that 1/5th of the codexes released are non power armor.
Anyway - my original point had no hate on marines, just that there's too much sitting around and disinterest in the new edition for everyone else.

I'm adamant that index was the best way the company could have handled it. Not to mention they could do things like bundle it in with their "Battlescribe" and more.
   
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 Eonfuzz wrote:

Which is why I said "... or at least ...". Don't forget that outside of dakka there is still the casual scene and the index was pretty great for that.

I also really feel like Stratgems (late stage 8e and now 9) are basically an attack against casual players. A lot of them don't care, want or use the Stratagems


It becomes hard to square experiences when people are essentially playing to different games. I would doubt that a majority of casual players prefer not to use stratagems though. You could certainly make a case for simplicity, but I think the people in that bucket are old hammer anyway.

   
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Racerguy180 wrote:
8th index was nuts and people like to forget that. Wild wild west.

Does anyone remember malefic lords????? just cuz it was better than SM2.0 IH, castellan, etc doesn't make it balanced or better. The problems were just shifted around.


Ideally the company would learn from their mistakes and "balance" it from the outset. A simple copy pasting of 8e data sheets with the new weapon statlines could probably be enough.
   
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You would need to update their point costs at the very least.
   
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Spoletta wrote:
You would need to update their point costs at the very least.

It is hard to balance that, when the company policy is same gear units should cost the same points, for different armies.
A regular blade guard is a good unit, a DA blade guard is something much better. Or when something is deemed to be worth specific number of points, because a certain unit interaction or core rules like aura re-rolls, but one faction doesn't have the re-rolls or doesn't have the access to those specific units , but very much does have the first thing.

There is also what I like to think as lore point costs. Some things are costed as elites or chaff, because in the lore they are one of those two, but within the game and played armies structure they are nothing like that.

There is no reason for some elite ork units to cost as much as they do. If they are rare the numbers should be limited by the number of units one can take, or be locked by specific formation set ups. Otherwise GW just keep producing units that are never taken , up until GW decides to lower their point cost so much they are suddenly spamed in every slot possible.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Some of them are just straight up offensive and defensive buffs with exactly zero effort


Agreed, but then it becomes a resource management thing.

2. Some of them scale hella weird


Scaling has gotten a bit better.

3. Some of them make little sense in the context of an army where only one unit is doing it....because.


Right, a lot of people would prefer some of these things to be wargear. I think its a valid point, but it has the potential effect of either being an auto-take or completely worthless. A stratagem allows a little more flex in how it gets implemented.

Take SMOKESCREEN. Vehicles used to be able to pop smoke at the cost of shooting. Almost no one ever did this, because they likely wanted to shoot instead. Now SMOKESCREEN allows them to shoot and also benefit at a cost, but not everyone can do it at the same time. I really prefer this setup than the old one.



Only one vehicle at a time may fire smoke, because more than that is bad for morale. Makes the men weak and cowardly. Hiding in their smoke, like worms. I think it's beyond silly only one unit can smoke but hey maybe they still haven't found the smoke sweet spot. Perhaps, one day they'll put smoke in the game in a compelling way to make it have depth.
   
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 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Only one vehicle at a time may fire smoke, because more than that is bad for morale. Makes the men weak and cowardly. Hiding in their smoke, like worms. I think it's beyond silly only one unit can smoke but hey maybe they still haven't found the smoke sweet spot. Perhaps, one day they'll put smoke in the game in a compelling way to make it have depth.


And yet no one worries about how only one eldar unit can have lightning fast reflexes at a time


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
 
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