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I don't think 3D printing killed kitbashing, I think what killed it is what birthed it in a way - GW. GW's old metal era let them cast parts and sell them individually. When that mostly ended 3rd party firms took up the slack ordering kits from GW trade and splitting the parts - bitz shops.

Then someone at GW decided they didn't want bitz shops to exist so they ceased trade to them. I would warrant it might be that they were concerned people would buy 1 box and then parts from a bitz shop rather than another box so that they could get alternate builds from two or three in one kits. Or it might have been other things.


Basically it cut down a huge affordable supply of plastic parts for gamers. The shift to "no models no rules" also removed mandatory kit bashing to get certain models, so kit bashing became less affordable and also less necessary.


That said I think its still a thing, its just important to realise that it was never the major thing, it was always more of a niche within the hobby. Which is why its good that no-model-no-rules was adopted as it allowed casual players access to the same models without having to use counts as or kit bash (not everyone wants too learn how to do it).



3D printing does mean that you can certainly take 1 model and edit it to a different pose; though I'd argue that it still takes time and skill its just a different time and skill set to get a good result. Future resins might also make it easier to chop and change parts, though, again, people might just find it easier to chop in the computer and print what's needed.


Still the basic skills remain, even from 3D printers you can get parts that don't align perfectly - you can see this with people printing big dragons on smaller build plates

 Albertorius wrote:
Well, up to a point it stands to reason: Epic/BFG don't have hundreds of ready available plastic sprues from which snag parts for conversions.

I would guess many people feel it's much easier to work with hips for converting stuff instead of trying to use cured UV resin.

And they probably are right.

Hmm, I'm not fully sure about that. Whilst rare, there is still some very interesting kitbashing going on in Epic/BFG, to give you some quick examples: numero uno, and number two to just give you some ideas.

So it's still out there. Whilst some have the skills to edit / design their own models, there are many who don't have the 3D skills or access to a 3D printer (even printing itself is a hobby of its own), so there is still space for traditional kitbashing. I feel that 3D printed bits could really help out here.

#makeINQ6happen!

My opinion is that home 3d printing won't replace traditional manufacturing (whether resin, metal, or plastic) in tabletop gaming until nontoxic washable automatic resin supports are a standard part of 3d printing software for affordable printers. It'll be a viable alternative though once actually capable nondeforming auto supports that come off easily by hand are the norm but traditional minis will still have their majority stake in the industry. The key is to be as easy to put on the table as opening a blister and gluing a few pieces for the average human sized figure.

 Malika2 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Well, up to a point it stands to reason: Epic/BFG don't have hundreds of ready available plastic sprues from which snag parts for conversions.

I would guess many people feel it's much easier to work with hips for converting stuff instead of trying to use cured UV resin.

And they probably are right.

Hmm, I'm not fully sure about that. Whilst rare, there is still some very interesting kitbashing going on in Epic/BFG, to give you some quick examples: numero uno, and number two to just give you some ideas.

So it's still out there. Whilst some have the skills to edit / design their own models, there are many who don't have the 3D skills or access to a 3D printer (even printing itself is a hobby of its own), so there is still space for traditional kitbashing. I feel that 3D printed bits could really help out here.

#makeINQ6happen!

Of course there still is. What I mean is that it's more prevalent on the "28mm" scene simply because there's more stuff to use.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Well, up to a point it stands to reason: Epic/BFG don't have hundreds of ready available plastic sprues from which snag parts for conversions.

I would guess many people feel it's much easier to work with hips for converting stuff instead of trying to use cured UV resin.

And they probably are right.

Hmm, I'm not fully sure about that. Whilst rare, there is still some very interesting kitbashing going on in Epic/BFG, to give you some quick examples: numero uno, and number two to just give you some ideas.

So it's still out there. Whilst some have the skills to edit / design their own models, there are many who don't have the 3D skills or access to a 3D printer (even printing itself is a hobby of its own), so there is still space for traditional kitbashing. I feel that 3D printed bits could really help out here.

#makeINQ6happen!

Of course there still is. What I mean is that it's more prevalent on the "28mm" scene simply because there's more stuff to use.

Hmm, would it you think be viable if someone would release all sorts of extra bits (be it for vehicles/infantry or terrain), either as (metal, resin, plastic) cast bits or in a print on demand form?

Have you seen shapeways? That is basically their business model.

 Flinty wrote:
Have you seen shapeways? That is basically their business model.

Not sure if you're referring to my comment but, yes, and I've ordered from them several times. But they're not home 3d printing though...

 Flinty wrote:
Have you seen shapeways? That is basically their business model.

gakky quality prints and very pricy. Shapeways' business model isn't that 'userfriendly', be it for the designers or people buying the prints.

I have one of the best budget PLA printers on the market, (under 700 USD) and you cannot make PLA prints look even close to the detail of the store bought ones, let along get the STLs or Gcodes before GW bans them. GW even bans things that look like their old rogue trader stuff. It's more difficult to find and print even near quality prints than it is to just buy them. If you get into resin printing, it's dangerous, expensive, and requires a lot of planning, space, and time investment. and they still don't look that close.

The only way 3d printing would replace GW is if GW made it legal to download their models and home print them, with pre-supported Gcodes. People are only switching to printing because they feel it MIGHT save money, but after all the upgrades, filament, replacement bits (you WILL break stuff learning this hobby) then you don't even break even, and you get maybe 5-10 ugly kinda ugly minis. No one is printing perfect sculpts of Gman and saving 100 bucks.

3d printing costs almost as much, requires a lot of learning, takes ages to even print one model, and then they look like meh.

Nope, it won't replace it, likely ever. GW has their IP protected and safe.

GW has their IP protected, but there are other IPs. There's sculpts out there producing stuff.

@Fezzik - i dont agree,.except maybe for the dangerous bit. You can fit a resin printer, and all.required curing gubbins easily on a single desk. The only special.thing needed compared to all the usual space and kit for modelling hobbies is more ventilation, and even then you need good.ventilaton for airbrushing.

Decent resin printers are so cheap now that there is a serious question to whether it's cheaper to buy an army, or to buy a printer and print your own. Yes there is an investment in time to learn how to use the printer effectively, but i dont think its particularly different to learning the right techniques and skills for modelling from plastic kits.

Regarding printed stuff looking meh a quick romp through Albertorius' thread shows the quality you can get to. I havent looked but surely there are Guilliman equivalent .models out there in STL form. In term sof wacky, baroque and hyper detailed models you can get stuff like this free off thingiverse

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4653192
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4633721

 Malika2 wrote:
Hmm, would it you think be viable if someone would release all sorts of extra bits (be it for vehicles/infantry or terrain), either as (metal, resin, plastic) cast bits or in a print on demand form?

Well, speaking for myself I'd rather have it as stls to remix, but as you said above, printing is a hobby now for me.

But yes, it's kind of what Shapeways do. Which means there is a market for that kinda thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I have one of the best budget PLA printers on the market, (under 700 USD) and you cannot make PLA prints look even close to the detail of the store bought ones, let along get the STLs or Gcodes before GW bans them. GW even bans things that look like their old rogue trader stuff. It's more difficult to find and print even near quality prints than it is to just buy them. If you get into resin printing, it's dangerous, expensive, and requires a lot of planning, space, and time investment. and they still don't look that close.

The only way 3d printing would replace GW is if GW made it legal to download their models and home print them, with pre-supported Gcodes. People are only switching to printing because they feel it MIGHT save money, but after all the upgrades, filament, replacement bits (you WILL break stuff learning this hobby) then you don't even break even, and you get maybe 5-10 ugly kinda ugly minis. No one is printing perfect sculpts of Gman and saving 100 bucks.

3d printing costs almost as much, requires a lot of learning, takes ages to even print one model, and then they look like meh.

Nope, it won't replace it, likely ever. GW has their IP protected and safe.

I'd welcome your opinions on my 3d printing thread ^^.

Yeah from what I see if you want high quality models you're printing using a resin 3D printer; the PLA I tend to see used more for things like terrain, dice towers and for seriously big models or things like wings on dragons and such - ergo lower detail regions or terrains and such.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
People are only switching to printing because they feel it MIGHT save money, but after all the upgrades, filament, replacement bits (you WILL break stuff learning this hobby) then you don't even break even, and you get maybe 5-10 ugly kinda ugly minis. No one is printing perfect sculpts of Gman and saving 100 bucks.

3d printing costs almost as much, requires a lot of learning, takes ages to even print one model, and then they look like meh.

This three thousand. If you're buying a 3d printer to "save" on hobby dollars, you're in for a rude awakening. It's simply a tool, not a magic box.

It's not about what the machine can do for you, but what you can do with the machine. 3d printers can print miniatures and A WHOLE LOT MORE if you spend the time and effort in learning your way around the machine.

Now air fryers - they're the true magic box of the 21st century.

Mark my word, while it may be some time yet, nearly every industry will be moving to locally printed pieces to improve and lower logistics and supply costs. It is one of the most highly invested areas in many industries.
Example: You need a part for your car (realize, it can be a plastic or metal part) and instead of the auto manufacturer producing and stocking thousands of them all over the country, the local dealer auto parts will print the part you need, when you need it.

Will GW eventually get hit over the head to realize that not only can they sell their plastic kits, but eventually offer their IP protected design files for those that want to print at an even higher price profit margin? Believe me, it will happen. I would estimate within the next 10 years when 8k or 12k resolution resin printers are moderately priced and available to all. GW will still scour and protect their IP as they do today, just a little differently.

Change is happening Dakka friends!! Just not by tomorrow!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I have one of the best budget PLA printers on the market, (under 700 USD) and you cannot make PLA prints look even close to the detail of the store bought ones, let along get the STLs or Gcodes before GW bans them. GW even bans things that look like their old rogue trader stuff. It's more difficult to find and print even near quality prints than it is to just buy them. If you get into resin printing, it's dangerous, expensive, and requires a lot of planning, space, and time investment. and they still don't look that close.

The only way 3d printing would replace GW is if GW made it legal to download their models and home print them, with pre-supported Gcodes. People are only switching to printing because they feel it MIGHT save money, but after all the upgrades, filament, replacement bits (you WILL break stuff learning this hobby) then you don't even break even, and you get maybe 5-10 ugly kinda ugly minis. No one is printing perfect sculpts of Gman and saving 100 bucks.

3d printing costs almost as much, requires a lot of learning, takes ages to even print one model, and then they look like meh.

Nope, it won't replace it, likely ever. GW has their IP protected and safe.

Yeah, really can't compare the quality or issues with FDM printing compared to resin printing. Once I get my larger build plate resin printer I will likely sell my Ender 3 Pro (and this is one GREAT printer) and say goodbye to the long print times, fiddly settings, lined prints, etc. If you are adept at the printer and software, resin is absolutely economical and you can produce great results.

 MDSW wrote:
Mark my word, while it may be some time yet, nearly every industry will be moving to locally printed pieces to improve and lower logistics and supply costs. It is one of the most highly invested areas in many industries.
Example: You need a part for your car (realize, it can be a plastic or metal part) and instead of the auto manufacturer producing and stocking thousands of them all over the country, the local dealer auto parts will print the part you need, when you need it.

Will GW eventually get hit over the head to realize that not only can they sell their plastic kits, but eventually offer their IP protected design files for those that want to print at an even higher price profit margin? Believe me, it will happen. I would estimate within the next 10 years when 8k or 12k resolution resin printers are moderately priced and available to all. GW will still scour and protect their IP as they do today, just a little differently.

Change is happening Dakka friends!! Just not by tomorrow!

When it does happen, GW will likely release uneditable files. They will also release official licensed Games-Workshop exclusive 3d printers with software lock that allows only gcodes produced by GW to be printed on it, while preventing any other files to be printed. It will also have a number of times you can use the file before expiring. Someone will come around and hack the lock, and they will then get slapped with a C&D to be "taught a lesson." Dakka loves to talk trash about GW, but they're not dumb people. They will find a way to drain your hobby dollars one way or another.

Oh, and they will release their own proprietary viewer app (not a slicer since they will lock the file for editing) that you have to pay monthly to access and print files from. OH! and official GW licensed resin/spools with chip that tells the machine it's empty when there's still 20% volume left in the tank/spool. They will certainly do that.

3D printing will certainly alter the way consumers consume plastic crack, but it will not completely "kill off" traditional miniatures or their manufacturers.

P.S. the files will also come with massive amounts of supports that you don't need so that you run out of their 'official' material faster. And the materials will cost 5x 'generic' materials.

 skchsan wrote:

 MDSW wrote:
Mark my word, while it may be some time yet, nearly every industry will be moving to locally printed pieces to improve and lower logistics and supply costs. It is one of the most highly invested areas in many industries.
Example: You need a part for your car (realize, it can be a plastic or metal part) and instead of the auto manufacturer producing and stocking thousands of them all over the country, the local dealer auto parts will print the part you need, when you need it.

Will GW eventually get hit over the head to realize that not only can they sell their plastic kits, but eventually offer their IP protected design files for those that want to print at an even higher price profit margin? Believe me, it will happen. I would estimate within the next 10 years when 8k or 12k resolution resin printers are moderately priced and available to all. GW will still scour and protect their IP as they do today, just a little differently.

Change is happening Dakka friends!! Just not by tomorrow!

When it does happen, GW will likely release uneditable files. They will also release official licensed Games-Workshop exclusive 3d printers with software lock that allows only gcodes produced by GW to be printed on it, while preventing any other files to be printed. It will also have a number of times you can use the file before expiring. Someone will come around and hack the lock, and they will then get slapped with a C&D to be "taught a lesson." Dakka loves to talk trash about GW, but they're not dumb people. They will find a way to drain your hobby dollars one way or another.

Oh, and they will release their own proprietary viewer app (not a slicer since they will lock the file for editing) that you have to pay monthly to access and print files from. OH! and official GW licensed resin/spools with chip that tells the machine it's empty when there's still 20% volume left in the tank/spool. They will certainly do that.

3D printing will certainly alter the way consumers consume plastic crack, but it will not completely "kill off" traditional miniatures or their manufacturers.

Now you are thinking like a GW exec - good job and a likely scenario in the near future!!

In regards to kitbashing, the GW game oriented artists like Anvil Industries tend to make traditionally cut multipart models anyway. It's the D&D crowd that tends to put out monopose heroes and monsters. We're also seeing the rise of "design your own prints" apps like Heroforge, Townbuilder, Terrain Tinker...

If GW dips their toes in, they will start with terrain, as it is clearly not their bread and butter products and more of a set dressing.

We know they have the office's capability, as you can see striation marks on the Bone Fortress in the Ossiarch Bonereapers book's background shots. They have started to make it for their own internal use but not releasing the files for general consumption.

If you look closely, a lot of the newer GW prototypes are printed I think. Some of the Primaris model images on the store for example have layer lines visible if you look at the close-ups. For example:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Space-Marines-Primaris-Intercessors-2020

And that's where I think resin printing can sit very happily, making the initial prototypes and masters for moulding. It's far quicker/cheaper to make modifications to a digital file than to a physical sculpt. More than that, I have no idea.

 Italianmoose wrote:

And that's where I think resin printing can sit very happily, making the initial prototypes and masters for moulding. It's far quicker/cheaper to make modifications to a digital file than to a physical sculpt. More than that, I have no idea.

this is pretty much standard for years now for those working with digital sculpts

People dont understand the complexity of 3d printing, they just see easy and cheap minis. But you need to spend a day learning how to properly build supports and bases before you ever hit print on that mini. I wasted countless meters of PLA before I learned the 60/30 rule....

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
People dont understand the complexity of 3d printing, they just see easy and cheap minis. But you need to spend a day learning how to properly build supports and bases before you ever hit print on that mini. I wasted countless meters of PLA before I learned the 60/30 rule....

3D printing is still quite new, I think once its been out for a while the general knowledge base and expected standard for pre-supports will be much higher. Right now there are a lot of 3d designers who can design a 3D image but not necessarily a 3D model and not the supports to make it work at its best. They get away with it right now because 3D printing is REALLY niche so its die hard fans who are generally able and willing to put in more time. If its ever to go mass market then pre-supports being good is a must.

Are you talking about the printers or the STLs? Because the STLs are many and varied along countless websites. As for the printers, I don't know how much more "mass market" you can get with a base entry level self leveling, Ender 3 pro, with glass bed and all metal extruder, going for under $300 bucks. Thats a great system, and Cura is free.

Getting mixed messages here lol, so is it complex or is it easy? And what's the 60/30 rule, google has nothing on it. Something about overhang angles I guess?

if you know what you are doing and know how to adjust the 3D Renders, it is easy

if you you just want to load a file and press start, not so much
chance that it is working as well as for a total fail

and one part of this is, if the 3D file you get is made to be printed with your material or not

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
People dont understand the complexity of 3d printing, they just see easy and cheap minis. But you need to spend a day learning how to properly build supports and bases before you ever hit print on that mini. I wasted countless meters of PLA before I learned the 60/30 rule....

First of all spending a day to learn how to.use a new tool.effectively is not very much and sounds like a worthwhile investment of time. I'm pretty sure I spent more than a day learning the best ways of using hobby knives and clippers to remove.bits from sprues and clean up.mould lines and.suchlike.

Secondly, this was the first model I ever printed on my newly purchased resin printer, done the same day I set it up and switched it on.



I used the auto supports function in prusa slicer and set it going. It's not perfect, but it's an extremely satisfying and encouraging first go and to me indicates that you can pretty much buy a printer and the same day start producing good quality miniatures.

This is the second, again using auto supports



So the.underside is a bit messy but that doesnt bother me in the slightest given the quality of the top and front



Regarding FDM printers, my first ever 3d model.print using default settings for everything




I am not some.kind of genius. I just used default settings for everything and hit go. All this stuff can be improved through further study and learning to use the 3d printing tools.i have. However I think it's good evidence that someone interested in war games and modelling can now pick up a.3d printer and very shortly afterwards be able to produce satisfying stuff. The user can then learn as much more as they want to and reach their preferred level of perfection.

I guess there can be a lot regarding the files auto-supported and slicers and such that could be made much more user friendly with hit-n-print capabilities.

However, current status of things means you do have to spend a bit of time to learn about your printer, settings, supports, files, etc. I sincerely think if you jump into this hobby you need to invest a bit of time to learn some things to get the best results. There is a learning curve to anything you get into. This is especially true about supports - LEARN THEM! Sure, you can rely on everyone creating perfect pre-supported files, but they cannot be made to suit every machine and setting. Spend a bit of time to learn an integral part of using your printer.

If you insist on super easy print and go technology with no learning curve, it will get there, but just not right now.

Sorry, a bit off-topic...

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Getting mixed messages here lol, so is it complex or is it easy? And what's the 60/30 rule, google has nothing on it. Something about overhang angles I guess?

Some of it is because there's 2 types of printing and the posts are not specifying the types so its mixing up a bit.

There's also variation, some people are happy with minor imperfections, others want perfect printed models and any imperfection is a failure to be reprinted with adjustments. There's also the fact that if you're not seeing others prints in real life there might well be some getting results that are way below what the printer is capable of, but thinking that its the best it can do.


In the end what there certainly is, is a learning curve that's fairly steep. It's not hard, it just has a lot of elements to it that take time to learn and problem solve; esp when you have to do the learning yourself and asking questions. Which of course relies on you properly identifying the problem to be able to ask the right questions. Heck earlier this week I thought my build plate had issues, however after asking the right question to the right person I found out that its actually an issue with my base layers being greater than my burn-in layers causing peeling problems. A simple problem, but another element to fail on - identify and learn from.


Thing is some people don't want that from a hobby. They don't want too much learning.



In the end I think getting quality results from 3D printing - no matter the method - does rely on some learning and skill and dedication to working through the early teething period. It's not impossible to master to get good results, but there is a curve. Supports and sculpts are another area where its easy to make a lot of mistakes and where there's a lot of market variation. As said earlier there are some great sculpts out there with terrible supports and some so-so sculpts that are really well supported and just print great without any fuss. And of course there's quality in both together.
If you get one of the poorly supported models you've either wasted your money or you put time into learning how to support and support it yourself

 MDSW wrote:
I guess there can be a lot regarding the files auto-supported and slicers and such that could be made much more user friendly with hit-n-print capabilities.

However, current status of things means you do have to spend a bit of time to learn about your printer, settings, supports, files, etc. I sincerely think if you jump into this hobby you need to invest a bit of time to learn some things to get the best results. There is a learning curve to anything you get into. This is especially true about supports - LEARN THEM! Sure, you can rely on everyone creating perfect pre-supported files, but they cannot be made to suit every machine and setting. Spend a bit of time to learn an integral part of using your printer.

If you insist on super easy print and go technology with no learning curve, it will get there, but just not right now.

Sorry, a bit off-topic...

I think that's all accurate, and part of the reason why I don't think we'll really ever see a complete shift to "only print at home" as a method of miniature distribution. Will it get better and easier? Yes, but there are always going to be random factors between printers and resins, so getting to a true "plug and play" is probably not going to happen.

That said, like I've said elsewhere in this thread, I would not be surprised if smaller companies do shift more towards 3d printing as their "final delivery" production. When you can spend that investment time in dialing in a certain brand of resin with a certain printer, you can get pretty regular and reliable results, and if you're running a print farm for production, that standardization is exactly what you want to do. Right now, a lot of companies do 3d prints for their masters, then make silicone molds of them and cast resin minis. That is the method that I think is most susceptible to being replaced by just 3d printing as production, skipping the casting process entirely. I know a few small companies are already doing that (and it's what I plan to do eventually), and as printer tech improves and becomes a little more widely accepted, I think more small companies will go there.

Even so, for high volume runs, I don't see it replacing injection molding, and that generally is reserved for medium to larger companies due to the start up costs.