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Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 vipoid wrote:
On the subject of charges, it occurred to me recently how weird and unintuitive movement is in 40k.

First we have a movement phase where models can move or run. If they move, they move up to their Movement characteristic. Makes sense. If they run, they can move their Movement Characteristic + 1d6. Huh. Oh and models moving in the movement phase can't move into contact with enemy models. There's no explanation as to why this is the case. Possibly if they try it a German voice shouts at them "Nein! You must do zat in ze designated phase!"

But whatever. We then move onto the psychic phase and then onto the shooting phase. Okay.

And then we get onto the second movement phase. Except that this one can only be used to make contact with enemy models. You can't use this movement phase to, for example, move away from the enemy after shooting (even if you didn't move at all in the first movement phase). Also, it's fine to charge after you spent time shooting but (usually) not if you ran (clearly those advancing vehicles are just too tired to move any further this turn).

When you move in this second movement phase, your movement characteristic ceases to matter and you only ever go 2d6". This time you are not only allowed to move into contact with enemy models you must move into contact with them. Not only that, but a unit wishing to move must declare any and all targets in advance. Should it fail to make contact with even a single one of those targets, fate will intervene and reverse time such that that unit never actually moved at all.

Oh, and despite units being too tired to charge after moving an extra 1d6", units that didn't move that 1d6" are not remotely tired after moving 2d6" and so will move an extra 3" to pile in and then another 3" after attacking to consolidate.

When I see how other wargames do movement I can't help but see the above as being unbelievably clunky for a game that's currently in its 9th iteration.


100% agree. Especially for horde armies like orks having to touch units of 30 models four times per turn is super annoying and wastes a lot of time.

I thought the killteam solution was rather elegant, just allow assault weapons and pistols to be shot in the turn your made a charge move - it would give those weapons a reason to exists besides being the "vanilla" weapon type.
That would also eliminate that weird "don't shoot what you want to charge" thing.

7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

I think 40k needs a "basic" weapon category.
Traditionally Assault has filled that role, but really Assault should be it's own thing.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




A funny story from today re: random charges.

The school year is ending this Friday and today I played a farewell Warmachine game against two of my soon-to-be-former students (18y.o.). One plays more 40k and WM&H very rarely and the other plays WM&H only (and a lot of modern board games - we have a boardgaming club at school) but maybe we'll set up a game during holidays to show him what WH40K is all about.

So the first one had plenty of habits from 40k and at some point was about to roll for charge. I told him not to roll "It WM&H, not 40k, we don't roll for charges here, we manage and interrupt threat ranges and LOS with gameplay instead "

At this point the other student asked, wide-eyed "You roll for charge range in WH40K?" He just literally couldn't believe when we said yes, he was sure we're making fun of him, that's how silly it sounded to him. "So you just roll and if you don't roll enough the charge fails and you stand there wiating to be killed? How does it make any sense or interesting gameplay?"

Once he realised we're serious, he started laughing and couldn't stop for some time.

So, yeah. I'm so used to playing GW games that I underestimate how silly and unfun those rules are for someone from outside the bubble :]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 14:46:21


 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain





Bristol (UK)

I've had many games decided because someone rolled badly on their crucial charge, it really is such gakky rules design.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Jidmah wrote:
100% agree. Especially for horde armies like orks having to touch units of 30 models four times per turn is super annoying and wastes a lot of time.

I thought the killteam solution was rather elegant, just allow assault weapons and pistols to be shot in the turn your made a charge move - it would give those weapons a reason to exists besides being the "vanilla" weapon type.
That would also eliminate that weird "don't shoot what you want to charge" thing.


I like that idea.

It would also give Assault and Pistol weapons more of a point. It used to be that if you wanted to charge, you *had* to have an Assault or a Pistol weapon. Now those mostly exist as Rapid Fire weapons but with half the shots.


 kirotheavenger wrote:
I think 40k needs a "basic" weapon category.
Traditionally Assault has filled that role, but really Assault should be it's own thing.


I actually suggested a fix for this a while back - give each weapon a rate of fire and make Assault, Pistol, Heavy and Rapid Fire into weapon abilities.

Pistol - This weapon may be fired even while the user is engaged in melee.
Assault - This weapon may be fired even after the user Advanced. In this case, it suffers a -1 penalty to hit.
Heavy - This weapon suffers a -1 penalty to hit if the user moved in the preceding movement phase.
Rapid Fire - This weapon's Rate of Fire is doubled against targets that are within half of its maximum range.
(I'm abbreviating them a little but you get the idea.)

So a Bolter would become Range 24" RoF1 S4 AP- D1 Rapid Fire

In addition to allowing basic weapons, this method would also allow weapon abilities to be mixed. So you could have an Assault Pistol (which can be fired if the user Advanced or if they're in melee) or a Heavy Rapid Fire weapon, which gets double shots at half range but gets -1 to hit if the user moved at all, etc.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Cyel wrote:
A funny story from today re: random charges.

The school year is ending this Friday and today I played a farewell Warmachine game against two of my soon-to-be-former students (18y.o.). One plays more 40k and WM&H very rarely and the other plays WM&H only (and a lot of modern board games - we have a boardgaming club at school) but maybe we'll set up a game during holidays to show him what WH40K is all about.

So the first one had plenty of habits from 40k and at some point was about to roll for charge. I told him not to roll "It WM&H, not 40k, we don't roll for charges here, we manage and interrupt threat ranges and LOS with gameplay instead "

At this point the other student asked, wide-eyed "You roll for charge range in WH40K?" He just literally couldn't believe when we said yes, he was sure we're making fun of him, that's how silly it sounded to him. "So you just roll and if you don't roll enough the charge fails and you stand there wiating to be killed? How does it make any sense or interesting gameplay?"

Once he realised we're serious, he started laughing and couldn't stop for some time.

So, yeah. I'm so used to playing GW games that I underestimate how silly and unfun those rules are for someone from outside the bubble :]


I really dislike the rolling for charge distance mechanic. Also the rolling for advancing too. I think it was introduced when they let you per measure distances. IIRC back in 2nd edition charges and running were a fixed distance (double your movement stat) but you had to guess if you were in charge range. If the distance was too far the charge failed. (I think you still moved, so might be left in the open half an inch in front of the enemy!)
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 kirotheavenger wrote:
When I started you couldn't even move and fire a heavy weapon, even rapid fire weapons were very limited.

To begin with, 'Rapid Fire' was just something that Marines could do with their bolters if they didn't move that turn...


Aash wrote:
I really dislike the rolling for charge distance mechanic. Also the rolling for advancing too. I think it was introduced when they let you per measure distances. IIRC back in 2nd edition charges and running were a fixed distance (double your movement stat) but you had to guess if you were in charge range. If the distance was too far the charge failed. (I think you still moved, so might be left in the open half an inch in front of the enemy!)

This is exactly the reason. GW wanted some uncertainty in charges, so when they started allowing you to measure all the things all the time, they made charges random to compensate. Whether or not that uncertainty is actually necessary is a matter of personal opinion, but at the very least it should have a modifier tied to the unit's movement, rather than being entirely up to the whims of the dice gods.



 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





40k is now in a place where the movement stat is the least impactful part of how far an infantry unit can/will move in a turn.
   
 
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