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How much will boyz cost with T5 and AP-1 Choppas?
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Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.

LOL - please no.
Why so against it?

The change to DDD would be great-more consistency, less rolling.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.


30 Shoota boyz atm is 60 shots, 23.3 hits, against a Marine that is 11.6 wounds and 3.8dmg. So 240pts ALMOST kills 2 Marines, or 36pts.

Lets upgrade DDD to be hits not shots.

30 shoota boyz, 60 shots, 30 hits, 15 wounds 5 dmg. So now 240pts of Boyz is killing 2.5 Marines.

Lets keep the DDD Upgrade AND get all those 30 boyz somehow within 9' of their target. 120 shots, 60 hits, 30 wounds 10dmg for 5 Dead Marines. So under optimal circumstances those 240pts of boyz are just able to kill 90pts of Marines out in the open. Now, if they give shootas -1AP maybe, than the math goes to those 240pts of boyz killing 7.5 Marines, not bad, again, it will almost never ever happen but its theoretically possible, but at this point we are straying into "The SAG can ONE SHOT KNIGHTS!" territory.


This assumes shootas still don't punch and ignores what it takes to remove 30 T5 models.

   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?




Noctis Labyrinthus

Eight, maybe nine points.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 JNAProductions wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I hope to god this doesn't happen. Whats the point honestly? Rapid fire 18' weapons means they won't ever use it. Rapid fire Big shoota's....maybe, but you won't see them often since they lose the value when they move and most orky things like to move.


It means shoota boyz get double the number of shots under the right conditions. Running with shootas was never a real option. And nothing is stopping weapons from getting a range upgrade. Then consider DDD is almost certainly going to change into hits rather than attacks.

LOL - please no.
Why so against it?

The change to DDD would be great-more consistency, less rolling.

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 20:25:59


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Not tesla. Just one extra hit.

   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





I'm wondering what Ork weapons you are looking at because most aren't any more or less powerful than what other armies get. Now DDD plus their general higher volume of shots CAN be very spikey but that's very unlikely. If they are going to keep DDD as a rule better make it an extra hit just to speed up gameplay. I love Orks, have played them myself, but nothing is more tedious than the buckets of dice they roll every shooting and combat phase. Anything that cuts down on time there is greatly appreciated.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Xeno, you were "chided" because you were talking nonesense, just like you are now.

A stompa has only three weapons worth talking about, the others are 15 shots of big shoota and a skorcha.

Which means it can at most target four different units and has a coin flip chance of being able to target a fifth one or lose the ability to shoot its best weapon for the rest of the game.

If killing four units destroys half your army, that's on you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/15 22:22:08


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Also, DDD as an extra hit is the equivalent (on average) of BS4+

With the Moar Dakka stratagem it’s BS3+, only swingier.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.


Stompa as mentioned has 3 guns worth mentioning....and really its only 2. The Supa-gatler and the DeffKannon.

Deffkannon is Heavy 3D6 S10 -4AP D6dmg Blast.
Gatler is Heavy 3D6 S7 -2AP 1dmg

With Moar Dakka and the proposed DDD rule change the DeffKannon AVERAGES 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits which become 7 because of DDD. Against a vehicle (what you would target this with) its 4.6 wounds, -4AP generally goes through whatever it hits, so 16.3dmg.

The Gatler is even worse. It averages 10.5 shots, 7 hits, and against Marine Infantry that is....4.6dmg or less than 3 dead Marines. On a 2+ it can fire a 2nd time, so it becomes 9.2dmg or 4 dead Marines and likely 1 wounded Marine. On a 5+ it can shoot again, but if you roll a 4 or less the gun dies for the rest of the game.

Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terrible, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 14:25:15


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.


Stompa as mentioned has 3 guns worth mentioning....and really its only 2. The Supa-gatler and the DeffKannon.

Deffkannon is Heavy 3D6 S10 -4AP D6dmg Blast.
Gatler is Heavy 3D6 S7 -2AP 1dmg

With Moar Dakka and the proposed DDD rule change the DeffKannon AVERAGES 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits which become 7 because of DDD. Against a vehicle (what you would target this with) its 4.6 wounds, -4AP generally goes through whatever it hits, so 16.3dmg.

The Gatler is even worse. It averages 10.5 shots, 7 hits, and against Marine Infantry that is....4.6dmg or less than 3 dead Marines. On a 2+ it can fire a 2nd time, so it becomes 9.2dmg or 4 dead Marines and likely 1 wounded Marine. On a 5+ it can shoot again, but if you roll a 4 or less the gun dies for the rest of the game.

Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terribly, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?
You're thinking of subfaction traits-stratagems are available even in an Auxiliary.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Daedalus81 wrote:
Not tesla. Just one extra hit.

if you roll a 6 with your proposed change a 6 is 2 hits. With more dakka a 5 and 6 would be 2 hits. Tesla a 6 is 3 hits.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
You're thinking of subfaction traits-stratagems are available even in an Auxiliary.


Much appreciated, have an exalt

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.


Stompa as mentioned has 3 guns worth mentioning....and really its only 2. The Supa-gatler and the DeffKannon.

Deffkannon is Heavy 3D6 S10 -4AP D6dmg Blast.
Gatler is Heavy 3D6 S7 -2AP 1dmg

With Moar Dakka and the proposed DDD rule change the DeffKannon AVERAGES 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits which become 7 because of DDD. Against a vehicle (what you would target this with) its 4.6 wounds, -4AP generally goes through whatever it hits, so 16.3dmg.

The Gatler is even worse. It averages 10.5 shots, 7 hits, and against Marine Infantry that is....4.6dmg or less than 3 dead Marines. On a 2+ it can fire a 2nd time, so it becomes 9.2dmg or 4 dead Marines and likely 1 wounded Marine. On a 5+ it can shoot again, but if you roll a 4 or less the gun dies for the rest of the game.

Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terrible, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?

You are leaving out super missles and belly cannon. 2 more super guns.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

You are leaving out super missles and belly cannon. 2 more super guns.


2 things.

1: Super missiles...seriously? it averages 3.5 shots for 1.16 hits. With DDD and Moar Dakka its 2.32 hits a turn. That is what you are worried about? basically a pair of S8 hits?

2: Belly Gun isn't on a Stompa. That is the Kustom Stompa which is unarguably BETTER than a Stompa but still garbage tier and by a long shot (my guess about 300-400pts over priced).

Belly Gun is 3D6 shots so as mentioned previously, 10.5 hits, its S8 -2AP and 2dmg. Against a T7 vehicle its 9.3dmg . Again, not game breaking. Especially since you just sunk basically 1/2 of your entire army into the damn thing.


 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






SemperMortis wrote:
Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terrible, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?


Stompas can't usually benefit from a culture, but they can use stratagems as usual... which means all of Moar Dakka, Ramming Speed and Patch up (which does absolutely nothing for shooting), plus the deff skulls and snakebites clan stratagems.

It's worth mentioning that there is a gimmik army which uses the evil suns psychic power to super-charge the FW kustom stompa if they are lucky enough, but that isn't what xeno was talking about.

In any case, do we really need to proof that the stompa sucks to the very same person that claims that he is getting curb-stomped by kanz and squig buggies?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 14:36:26


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Xenomancers wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.


Stompa as mentioned has 3 guns worth mentioning....and really its only 2. The Supa-gatler and the DeffKannon.

Deffkannon is Heavy 3D6 S10 -4AP D6dmg Blast.
Gatler is Heavy 3D6 S7 -2AP 1dmg

With Moar Dakka and the proposed DDD rule change the DeffKannon AVERAGES 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits which become 7 because of DDD. Against a vehicle (what you would target this with) its 4.6 wounds, -4AP generally goes through whatever it hits, so 16.3dmg.

The Gatler is even worse. It averages 10.5 shots, 7 hits, and against Marine Infantry that is....4.6dmg or less than 3 dead Marines. On a 2+ it can fire a 2nd time, so it becomes 9.2dmg or 4 dead Marines and likely 1 wounded Marine. On a 5+ it can shoot again, but if you roll a 4 or less the gun dies for the rest of the game.

Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terrible, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?

You are leaving out super missles and belly cannon. 2 more super guns.
The Belly Gun is on the Kustom Stompa, not the regular Stompa.

But sure-850 point Kustom Stompa. Shooting against MEQ.

Belly Gun 3d6 Blast at S8 AP-2 D2
21/2 shots
7 hits
35/6 wounds
35/9 unsaved
70/9 damage or about 3-4 dead Marines.

Deffkannon 3d6 Blast S10 AP-4 Dd6
21/2 shots
7 hits
35/6 wounds
385/36 damage, or about 5 dead Marines

Gaze Of Mork 3 S12 AP-4 D6
3 shots
2 hits
5/3 wounds
10/3 damage, or 1-2 dead Marines

Kustom Supa_Rokkits d6 Blast S8 AP-3 Dd6
7/2 shots
7/3 hits
35/18 wounds
175/108 unsaved
1,925/648 damage or 1-2 dead Marines

Supa-Gatler 3d6 S7 AP-2 D1, fires twice we'll assume
21/2 shots
7 hits
14/3 wounds
28/9 failed saves
28/9 damage or 1-2 dead Marines

Altogether, that is maybe three minimum squads dead. If they split fire well. Against basic MEQ.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






SemperMortis wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

At some point I made a statement that a stompa isn't that bad when someone stated it was the worst model. Got heavily Chided for that...Don't really care. I have an ork player that I play against probably about 20% of the time and he loves the Stompa - even more in this eddition.

Heres the thing - he is not the best player and I know that. I crush him on the regular. Normally allow him some breaks - won't shoot with a unit in my turn or something to give him a chance The only thing he has that can beat me is extraordinary luck. Stompa is literally a lucky mans dream. I am forced to play balls to the wall if that thing is in a game because- with More Dakka - it can literally destroy half of your army in 1 turn. It's not gonna happen most of the time but it can happen. Thing is if you turn ddd to 2 hits instead of and additional roll...you are drastically increasing this combo even more.

That is way to powerful of a free rule...plus ork weapons...are really strong - their only weakness is chance to hit. So abilities that make them hit good are just OP. It would have to come with a drastic increase in points on heavy weapons.


Stompa as mentioned has 3 guns worth mentioning....and really its only 2. The Supa-gatler and the DeffKannon.

Deffkannon is Heavy 3D6 S10 -4AP D6dmg Blast.
Gatler is Heavy 3D6 S7 -2AP 1dmg

With Moar Dakka and the proposed DDD rule change the DeffKannon AVERAGES 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits which become 7 because of DDD. Against a vehicle (what you would target this with) its 4.6 wounds, -4AP generally goes through whatever it hits, so 16.3dmg.

The Gatler is even worse. It averages 10.5 shots, 7 hits, and against Marine Infantry that is....4.6dmg or less than 3 dead Marines. On a 2+ it can fire a 2nd time, so it becomes 9.2dmg or 4 dead Marines and likely 1 wounded Marine. On a 5+ it can shoot again, but if you roll a 4 or less the gun dies for the rest of the game.

Also, I don't use Stompas because they are so terrible, but don't you have to use a lot of things just to get access to stratagems on a stompa?

There you go with the "average" results on lightning damage.

This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think the issue is that yes, the Stompa can theoretically destroy half your army in a turn. The odds of this happening are however incredibly slim. Its much more common to fire everything, roll a bit under par, find you've failed to kill 150 points worth of stuff, and be left thinking this was awful for 900 points.

Especially as your opponent then either nukes the Stompa from orbit or mops up the rest of your army, depending on which is easier with their list.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

There you go with the "average" results on lightning damage.

This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


WOW! LOL. Your own math you showed that it can kill 3 min sized units of Tac or primaris Marines. Assuming it killed all 15 members of all 3 squads without any overkill etc....wow. Congrats your 850pt unit managed to kill about 300pts of throwaway infantry. Game breaking. Only had to take a Superheavy aux detachment, 850pts and some CP. Of course, all of that is assuming you the Marine player doesn't use any skills or tactics of his own like I don't know....transhuman, or god forbid if he has one of those super rare invulnerable saves that don't exist in Marine lists....wait.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 14:50:40


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

I mean, I’ve show in another thread that an Intercessor unit (not even an Assault one) can, ON AVERAGE, kill a knight in melee.

Should we balance around that?

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 JNAProductions wrote:
I mean, I’ve show in another thread that an Intercessor unit (not even an Assault one) can, ON AVERAGE, kill a knight in melee.

Should we balance around that?


Yes. As a Custodes can't do that, I say a Custodes should cost LESS than a Intercessor. Thanks man!
   
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GW tends to start high then adjust points lower. So I think Boyz will start 10-11 then shift down to 9-10 over time.

On the brightside if they start off at 10-11ppm GW may be comfortable enough to improve Shoota Boyz and make them worthwhile.
   
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Atlanta, GA

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
GW tends to start high then adjust points lower. So I think Boyz will start 10-11 then shift down to 9-10 over time.

On the brightside if they start off at 10-11ppm GW may be comfortable enough to improve Shoota Boyz and make them worthwhile.


That strategy hasn't seemed to apply to the Stompa so far, which since the beginning of 8th, even with a number of Chapter Approveds, is probably still 300+ points too expensive for what you get out of it.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




If they drop the Stompa by 300+ points they better make the Baneblade cost 250 points base.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.


Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






 Xenomancers wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.


Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


honestly that is the issue of a lot of ork shootign its swingy, supe reffective or super not. Also a lot of thing they do to even thigns out don't really work.

as an example take the loota (rip has not seen a table this edition) for 20 points its a normal boy with a deffgun so seemingly the deffgun is worth 12 points, on a T4 body with a 6+ save. that gun is D3 shots which ok might be great but rather than D3 per model in the unit to maybe even things out you roll on dice and if you have 15 lootas in the squad its the difference between 15, 30, or 45 shots. Orks used to be BS4 but for some reason it was decided they should be worse at shooting. i would prefer just for example 2 flat shots out of a loota gun and a bs4 than what they currently have (even if it meant losing ddd, cause consistency would beat swingy)

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Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Xenomancers wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.


Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


Definitely not 'common sense.' More just 'bad at statistics'

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 G00fySmiley wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
This unit is more than capable of destroying or crippling up to 5 units a turn. To deny this is utter insanity. Sorry I don't like the game to be decided by whether my opponent is spiking more 6's than average. The potential damage is too high.


See, this is why no one takes your opinion seriously.

Even if he rolls all sixes on all number of shots and all hit rolls and gets 36 shots out of both the deffkannon and both times the gatler shoots and then wounds all those dice and you fail all your saves... that's still just four dead units.

It also won't happening more than once during this planet's lifetime because it's so unlikely.

According to that logic, a full unit of assault helblasters should be 1000 points - after all, the have the potential to kill 10 ork buggies per turn.


Look dude this is common sense.

Orks have bad BS right? So if we just double the number of shots they have they'll hit just as much on average and it will be fair right? No...because when they roll well - the impact is magnified by 2x.


honestly that is the issue of a lot of ork shootign its swingy, supe reffective or super not. Also a lot of thing they do to even thigns out don't really work.

as an example take the loota (rip has not seen a table this edition) for 20 points its a normal boy with a deffgun so seemingly the deffgun is worth 12 points, on a T4 body with a 6+ save. that gun is D3 shots which ok might be great but rather than D3 per model in the unit to maybe even things out you roll on dice and if you have 15 lootas in the squad its the difference between 15, 30, or 45 shots. Orks used to be BS4 but for some reason it was decided they should be worse at shooting. i would prefer just for example 2 flat shots out of a loota gun and a bs4 than what they currently have (even if it meant losing ddd, cause consistency would beat swingy)

That is true. That is why I call it lightning damage. In diablo there were several kinds of damage - lightning damage was the most swingy with a damage range of like 1-49 where fire damage was a consistent 24 or so (just a general idea) - which is best? Well if you both sit back and take 100 shots there wont be much difference but the lightning damage is going to threshhold a mob sometimes in a single shot or 2 but the fire damage takes a minimum of 3 hits to kill a mob. So...the lightning is clearly superior as you rarely have time to sit still and shoot more than 2-3 shots anyways. 40k is similar in this sense. Since Alpha strike is really all that matters - large damage results is all that matters.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




(Totally off topic Diablo nerd rant) {Pushes up glasses} Diablo may have been a bad example:

They included resistences in Diablo, but there were also unseen Vulnerabilities. It felt like a type of spell did more damage, because it literally was. The Lightning wall for instance didn't just do 1-49, it did 1-49x2 to many creatures, also it hit about 4-6 times per second. The fireball was just a 1 time cast, 1 time damage. It's why Armaeggon and the Spirit spells were basically worthless in Endgame Diablo.
/end nerd rant

   
 
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