Switch Theme:

Will T5 orks break the setting?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Keramory wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
I played with the old T5 5+ FNP 3+ save PM's and I can assure you merely being T5 will not prevent you from removing them from the field by the handful. Obviously removing 120 will be hard if you put your list full of anti-tank but that's half of their list in just boyz, the other half will most likely be support elements. If the more durable T4 2W marines didn't break the game, neither will T5 boyz.


I hope so. I play with a bunch of average players with average collections. With that I could bring 120 boyz and it be an epic close game either way. Only thing I can compare the new change to is Plague Marine or Custode t5... and even before the saves what a difference it is trying to get the wound on a model with bolters lol.


There is no need to hope when you can just calculate it

Orks going from T4 to 5 affects three strength values: S4, S5, S8 and S9. Weapons with S2, S3, S6, S7, S10 and mortal wounds will work just as well as before. The one hit the worst is S4, going from a 50% chance to wound to a 33.33% chance to wound.

So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






I said previously that T5 Boyz feels odd, but I think I can be convinced once I see it in action.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Kitane wrote:
I will wait for my judgment after the Nid codex is out, as the Nids are in desperate need of a stat overhaul.

But T5 boys aren't even remotely as bad for the game and immersion as the last two years of Cawl-sponsored marine circus.

You just made your opinion invalid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 catbarf wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I could see orks getting a 6+ fnp.


6+ FNP is a textbook bad mechanic- lots of rolling for little effect. Doubly so when it's army-wide and comes into play on every single roll.

GW's rightfully moving away from those in favor of more straightforward mechanics.

Also, I'm not sure if it's been pointed out yet: Orks going to T5 helps balance out their offense and defense. Basic Boyz being T4/W1/6+ but having potentially 4 attacks at WS3+/S4 made them very glass-hammer, which is extremely weird for Greenskins. The only two directions GW could go to address it would be to either reduce their offense and cost, making them essentially 'Guardsmen but green', or increase their durability to compensate.

They've long been portrayed in the fluff as extremely durable, violent, and dangerous. This is an improvement, and in line with the expansion of infantry statlines ever since Primaris bumped the basic Marine profile to W2.
It's a 20% reduction in damage taken including mortal wounds. It is incredibly good. The best thing about it is - it doesn't change what weapons are effective against the unit. Bolters wounding an ork on a 5....is obviously backwards. Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.

It is a play to sell heavy intercessors.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/16 15:46:47


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
Bolters wounding an ork on a 5....is obviously backwards. Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.


Take it up with GW for deciding to represent Marine toughness as W2, I guess. You're still tougher than Orks regardless.
   
Made in us
Stealthy Grot Snipa





Atlanta, GA

Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.


Not a math guy, but it seems to me that the mutant superhuman also has a way better chance of making his armor save against that checks notes AP 0 shoota, while the t-shirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles will generally die to a bolter shot if the space marines makes his wound roll.
   
Made in nl
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Except they are not wounded easier, you said it yourself "full plate armour", you have 1 wound and a 3+ save over their 6+.
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




I admire the people who are still willing to talk to Xenomancer.

To answer the OP :

No, it will not break the setting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 15:54:01


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 catbarf wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Bolters wounding an ork on a 5....is obviously backwards. Their shoota wound the marine on a 4. The mutant superhuman in full plate armor is wounded easier than the teashirt wearing fungus plant with big muscles. It is beyond stupid.


Take it up with GW for deciding to represent Marine toughness as W2, I guess. You're still tougher than Orks regardless.

Uhhh - a marine being tough is obvious. They are 3 times the size of a human and are wearing full powered plate armor. The joke is that they were t4 3+ 1 wound for so long which is why they were never used. Pathetic given that marines are the most popular unit in the game and without marines the game would literally die. GW finally realized giving their base a fair chance was a good idea.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
Uhhh - a marine being tough is obvious. They are 3 times the size of a human and are wearing full powered plate armor. The joke is that they were t4 3+ 1 wound for so long which is why they were never used.


An Ork being tough is obvious. They are 3 times the size of a human and have a distributed physiology that makes them extremely difficult to kill. The joke is that they were T4 6+ 1 wound for so long which made them barely any tougher than Guardsmen.

See how that works?
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




Selfcontrol wrote:


To answer the OP :

No, it will not break the setting.


Yeah agree. This came up when First Born Marines first got 2 wounds. A bunch of people wanted Boys to get two wounds in response, and a bunch (myself included) were arguing for this exact change instead. Maybe I turn out to be wildly incorrect, but on paper, I'm a fan of this move.It gives more toughness to the Boys, and better reflects their much renowned ability to take serious damage and keep on ticking, while differentiating them from Marines by not jus lazily handing out an extra wound. I like it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 16:00:57


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Selfcontrol wrote:
I admire the people who are still willing to talk to Xenomancer.

To answer the OP :

No, it will not break the setting.

Well - hope you get banned for breaking the terms of service. Enjoy the report.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

 oni wrote:
I said previously that T5 Boyz feels odd, but I think I can be convinced once I see it in action.


Not sure if this has been covered in preceding pages, but this actually takes the game back to its roots! Marines were initially T3 and Orks T4, so GW are honouring the original lore here


Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Tycho wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:


To answer the OP :

No, it will not break the setting.


Yeah agree. This came up when First Born Marines first got 2 wounds. A bunch of people wanted Boys to get two wounds in response, and a bunch (myself included) were arguing for this exact change instead. Maybe I turn out to be wildly incorrect, but on paper, I'm a fan of this move.It gives more toughness to the Boys, and better reflects their much renowned ability to take serious damage and keep on ticking, while differentiating them from Marines by not jus lazily handing out an extra wound. I like it.


I also think it is good for the game to have a wide variety of profiles for infantry units.

It reduces the risk of having one "perfect" weapon capable of answering any kind of threat and it might help weapons which were not used a lot anymore (like autocanons).
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




Selfcontrol wrote:
Tycho wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:


To answer the OP :

No, it will not break the setting.


Yeah agree. This came up when First Born Marines first got 2 wounds. A bunch of people wanted Boys to get two wounds in response, and a bunch (myself included) were arguing for this exact change instead. Maybe I turn out to be wildly incorrect, but on paper, I'm a fan of this move.It gives more toughness to the Boys, and better reflects their much renowned ability to take serious damage and keep on ticking, while differentiating them from Marines by not jus lazily handing out an extra wound. I like it.


I also think it is good for the game to have a wide variety of profiles for infantry units.

It reduces the risk of having one "perfect" weapon capable of answering any kind of threat and it might help weapons which were not used a lot anymore (like autocanons).


I hadn't considered that part, but it's a great point! Hopefully things like this and the DG changes slowly help un-flatten the curve that's seen Plasma as the go-to for so long. Would love to see more variety of weapons on the table again.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orks at t5 seem ok to me. I'm not so specifically attached to fluff that I can't accept a game mechanic.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 16:17:25


 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran



Bamberg / Erlangen

T5 seems unfitting for me, but I will accept it as currently being the cleanest way to implement a higher resiliency to damage.

If dice rolling wouldn't be an issue, FnP would be more thematic for me.

Grey Knights Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!






 Pacific wrote:
 oni wrote:
I said previously that T5 Boyz feels odd, but I think I can be convinced once I see it in action.


Not sure if this has been covered in preceding pages, but this actually takes the game back to its roots! Marines were initially T3 and Orks T4, so GW are honouring the original lore here


Not only that, but in the meantime Boltguns got better too. They used to only fire once.
It's fine, the marines will just keep shooting until the ork is dead.

I have to laugh at the phrase 'break the setting'. It's a bit more robust than that I reckon.

I have a blog on the Warhammer Tournaments website:

Too much plasma can be cheesy

My painting and modeling blog:

PaddyMick's Chopshop: Converted 40K Vehicles 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Battlefield Tourist





On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

Lol indeed - and it's a tiny speck of dirt in comparison to the giant two-flush megadump that was dropped on the setting in the form of Cawl, Primaris and all of that nonsense

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 16:21:47


Epic 30K&40K! A new players guide, contributors welcome https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751316.page
Small but perfectly formed! A Great Crusade Epic 6mm project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/694411.page
 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in fr
Regular Dakkanaut




Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 16:27:22


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 Castozor wrote:
Except they are not wounded easier, you said it yourself "full plate armour", you have 1 wound and a 3+ save over their 6+.

But at what cost. a 1W model with a +3sv, that is more often then not downgraded to something lower , isn't as tough as two and a half model model with t4, and t-shirt. specially vs non multi shot weapons. Losing 8pts of ork to a multi melta is laughable, losing 40pts of a termintor is not, and the termintor is not 5 times as resilient as the orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Selfcontrol 799075 11150993 wrote:

I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.

harlequins and custodes are doing just fine. SoB were doing more then fine with an 8th ed codex too. So it is not always the case, but you are right sometimes the difference is so big, that it does warrent a question of why bother. Specially if you just have an army and not a 10k pts collection of every model for the army ever made multiple times.

Just last week someone got with tau, in to top 8 of a large tournament in the US. Great achivment, but I don't think many people could do the same, even outside of a tournament setting and with the top 8 army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 16:31:12


If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




Spoletta wrote:
To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?


Ok. There HAS to be a line somewhere ... T5 nid Warriors is just totally unreasonable and I won't stand for it! I can't have armies I don't play getting all these buffs!

Joking of course.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Dive-Bombin' Fighta-Bomba Pilot






Spoletta wrote:
To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?


I am hoping they up warriors to T5, they should have already been there given the size and background. when i look at a wraithguard squad vs a tyranid warrior squad i see way to big of a difference for the points. Some of the bigger xenoporphs like the mawlock / trygon go up to T7 or even T8 for the carnifex representing it being dead ard to kill. thematically the T7 means mostly protection from s6 shooting, the usual bolter and space marine attacks still wound on 5's as they did before. then in the case of the carnifex it just goes back to the beatstick it used to be.

from a game perspective i like the idea of the designers messing with more stats, it might make dual profile weapons liek the imperial missile launcher or the Eldar fire prism more valuable for the points ratehr than the too expensive for the profiles

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






The only armies that need durability buffs are tyranids and Imperial knights.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






@ Karol: I don't know if that is a consolidation, but I would See it this way: increasing Ork toughness instead of wounds or FNP kept them exactly as vulnerable against smite etc. then before. I wish your GK the best in your codex that you can use this to compete.

~5750 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 G00fySmiley wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
To which god should I pray for T5 nid warriors?


I am hoping they up warriors to T5, they should have already been there given the size and background. when i look at a wraithguard squad vs a tyranid warrior squad i see way to big of a difference for the points. Some of the bigger xenoporphs like the mawlock / trygon go up to T7 or even T8 for the carnifex representing it being dead ard to kill. thematically the T7 means mostly protection from s6 shooting, the usual bolter and space marine attacks still wound on 5's as they did before. then in the case of the carnifex it just goes back to the beatstick it used to be.

from a game perspective i like the idea of the designers messing with more stats, it might make dual profile weapons liek the imperial missile launcher or the Eldar fire prism more valuable for the points ratehr than the too expensive for the profiles


I actually want tyranids to get the '-1 damage' rule more than T5 for the mid-bugs, even if its just a rider on Synapse. The auto-spam anti-everything (s5-7, D2) weapons just get too much play at this point. But if someone wants to dedicate AT weapons to obliterating mid-sized bugs, that's absolutely fine.
Monsters need to be reworked entirely, because something's gone seriously wrong.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/16 17:29:11


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Selfcontrol wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.


Taking a quick peek at 40k stats for the past month, 6 of the top 10 factions in the game currently are rocking 8th edition codexes. 4 out of, if I'm tracking this correctly, 7 books released for ninth so far are below a 50% winrate.

The power creep is....real, I guess?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 the_scotsman wrote:
Selfcontrol wrote:
Karol wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:


So, assuming your entire army has nothing but S4 weapons and you were able to kill 60 boyz per turn perfore, after the change it will be just 40 boyz. In reality your army usually has a wide range of strength values so it's more like killing 10-15 boyz less than before. It's also likely that people will adapt and start to think about killing orks when picking weapons, so S6-7 weapons might become bit more popular for handling infantry, shrinking down that difference even more.

That is not a very fun perspective for armies that do have str 4 weapons with -AP as their most used weapon stats, and little or no access to str 6-7 shoting weapons on cheap platforms. To make things worse psi lancers are str 4 too, and I don't think psycanons ,with their cost and the number of shots they have are going to be good counter option, specially once the codex drops and everything starts costing more points. Melee isn't an option vs orks anymore either, with choppas being -1AP. But who knows , maybe it will work somehow when the new codex drops. Right now it looks rather grim.


I completely abandonned the idea of competing against 9th Codices with 8th Codices (at least, for most armies).

The differences in design are simply too great.

It sucks because of how GW releases its rules, but I made peace with that.


Taking a quick peek at 40k stats for the past month, 6 of the top 10 factions in the game currently are rocking 8th edition codexes. 4 out of, if I'm tracking this correctly, 7 books released for ninth so far are below a 50% winrate.

The power creep is....real, I guess?

This is pretty consistent for GW power creep. They come out with some bad books inbtween the super OP ones. Power creep is really just talking about the ceiling. You know...like the insanity of admech.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Who knows, maybe at the end of 9th, it is going to be the most balanced edition GW ever made.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: