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 p5freak wrote:
When a model from a one model unit fights again, the unit fights again.

This is the part you need to prove, because you have not done so.

I like how half of this thread is people arguing the same result, but for completely different and mutually exclusive justifications.

I agree that you must still select a unit to fight, it's just that only that one model within the unit has permission to attack.

Clearly selecting a "unit" does not require every model within that unit to attack, otherwise you would never be able to shoot a lascannon over 24" because the bolters would be out of range!

But, the specific instance of the strategem selecting the character overrules the general rule about fighting twice, especially since they're doing it "as if it were the fight phase".

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I agree that you must still select a unit to fight, it's just that only that one model within the unit has permission to attack.

The strat does not actually agree with you on that though.

You never select a unit to fight, so the restriction about a unit fighting more than once does not enter into it.

If you're not selecting a unit to fight, what are you selecting then?
The first step of Fighting is selecting a unit, there is nothing about selecting a model instead.

You only select a unit if you're fighting normally. Here you are explicitly fighting solely with a model.

How does a model fight if not following the steps of Fighting?

 kirotheavenger wrote:
How does a model fight if not following the steps of Fighting?

You follow the steps, but replace any reference to 'unit' with 'model'.

 Aftersong wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You don't get permission to select a unit, so that restriction you've made up is not applicable.

You specifically must select a unit because OINB tells you to fight as if it were the fight phase, open your rulebook and follow the rules for fighting in the fight phase. The first thing it tells you to do is select a UNIT. In order to satisfy the strategem (because it tells you to fight as if it were the fight phase) you have to select a unit, that unit must contain the slain model, you can't select the unit if it has already fought this turn.

It's very very cut and dry.

It doesn't tell you to fight as if it's the same fight phase. You're only told it can fight as if it were the fight phase or shoot as if it were the shooting phase.

Also, by specifying the model fights as the fight phase, it bypasses the selection of a unit. Stratagems can bypass regular rules like that dependent on the wording. The wording on the strat does not say anything about selecting a unit, You are making an assumption when it's also cut and dry that the selecting of a unit is a step that has been bypassed, so therefore the restriction on the unit is also bypassed.

 Ghaz wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
How does a model fight if not following the steps of Fighting?

You follow the steps, but replace any reference to 'unit' with 'model'.

Cool, where do the rules tell you to do that?

If you want to fire a lascannon at a tank which can't be seen by the rest of the squad or is out of range, what do you do?

You never selects. Unit , because the strat does not give you permission to do so. Otherwise your argument would allow you to select ANY unit not the model that just died.

You start the fight sequence having selected the model that is fighting. You cannot select a unit, as the strat is more specific. Not sure why this is so tricky to understand.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
How does a model fight if not following the steps of Fighting?

You follow the steps, but replace any reference to 'unit' with 'model'.

Cool, where do the rules tell you to do that?

If you want to fire a lascannon at a tank which can't be seen by the rest of the squad or is out of range, what do you do?

When it tells you that the model is fighting and not the unit. Why do you keep insisting that the entire unit is fighting when the rule in question only says that the one model is fighting? Can you show us where the rules say one model equals the entire unit?

In order to attack with the model you must select the unit.
You're only allowed to fight with that one model within the unit, but you can't select a model without also selecting a unit.

When you shoot a lascannon at a tank, have you selected the unit or have you just selected the lascannon?

Except that's not what the strat says. It says the model fights. Where are you given permission to select a unit as well? Page and graph. Note specific is more important than general.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
In order to attack with the model you must select the unit.

Except the stratagem in question says otherwise. It is a case of a specific rule overriding a general rule.

 doctortom wrote:
It doesn't tell you to fight as if it's the same fight phase. You're only told it can fight as if it were the fight phase or shoot as if it were the shooting phase.

Also, by specifying the model fights as the fight phase, it bypasses the selection of a unit. Stratagems can bypass regular rules like that dependent on the wording. The wording on the strat does not say anything about selecting a unit, You are making an assumption when it's also cut and dry that the selecting of a unit is a step that has been bypassed, so therefore the restriction on the unit is also bypassed.

You are looking at the rules too broadly here, You have to follow them explicitly exactly precisely as they are written, I agree that the Ork character should be able to fight twice. unfortunately i don't believe the rules were written properly to support that.

 doctortom wrote:
Stratagems can bypass regular rules like that dependent on the wording. The wording on the strat does not say anything about selecting a unit

You are completely correct about this, What the stratagem does say is to fight as if it were the fight phase, this tells us that we have to adhere to all the relevant rules concerning the fight phase and the first thing the fight phase rules tell us to do is select an eligible UNIT I can see how this seems like a conflict as the stratagem says model but the rulebook says unit, since the stratagem has already told us to follow the rulebook rules then we have to satisfy BOTH requirements in order to continue. In this case we have to select a UNIT that contains the MODEL targetted by OINB. Now the stratagem hasn't said create a new fight phase or create a separate fight phase so we remain in the current phase and all rules relevant to the current phase are still in effect. This means that when you go to select the UNIT which contains the MODEL if that UNIT has already fought in the current phase regardless of being told to fight as if it were the fight phase you cannot select an eligible UNIT because it has already been selected to fight in the current fight phase.

I know that this interpretation seems overly pedantic and as an Ork player who has been using OINB incorrectly to fight twice for some time now I am quite dissapointed to realize I have been using it wrong however it's not rules as makes sense it's not rules as we want them to be, it is rules as written and we have to follow them as such.

 Aftersong wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Stratagems can bypass regular rules like that dependent on the wording. The wording on the strat does not say anything about selecting a unit

You are completely correct about this, What the stratagem does say is to fight as if it were the fight phase, this tells us that we have to adhere to all the relevant rules concerning the fight phase and the first thing the fight phase rules tell us to do is select an eligible UNIT I can see how this seems like a conflict as the stratagem says model but the rulebook says unit, since the stratagem has already told us to follow the rulebook rules then we have to satisfy BOTH requirements in order to continue. In this case we have to select a UNIT that contains the MODEL targetted by OINB. Now the stratagem hasn't said create a new fight phase or create a separate fight phase so we remain in the current phase and all rules relevant to the current phase are still in effect. This means that when you go to select the UNIT which contains the MODEL if that UNIT has already fought in the current phase regardless of being told to fight as if it were the fight phase you cannot select an eligible UNIT because it has already been selected to fight in the current fight phase.

I know that this interpretation seems overly pedantic and as an Ork player who has been using OINB incorrectly to fight twice for some time now I am quite dissapointed to realize I have been using it wrong however it's not rules as makes sense it's not rules as we want them to be, it is rules as written and we have to follow them as such.

No, you don't have to satisfy both requirements in order to continue. You are told the model fights, but are never told to select a unit by the stratagem. You are selecting only a model.

And, it says to fight as if it is the fight phase or shoot as if it was the shooting phase, then remove the model after it has done that. You are in an "as if" for it, so it's irrelevant what phase it is in - you are in the "as if" phase of fighting or shooting. Note that the stratagem does not say to treat the current shooting or fight phase as the same one for the model, so it is still the model - not the unit - doing something "as if".

You need to provide a citation where the strat still treats it as the same fight phase when going into the "fight/shoot as if it is was the fight/shooting phase".

are people actually using different arguments or are people just repeating what they've previously said?

This thread is pointless at this point. the stratagem works for a character being able to fight before he dies, even if he fought earlier, regardless of whether you like it or not. Also regardless of whether or not its going to remain like that in the future.

It says you fight immediately, so immediately i shall fight.

The same people that think this doesnt work, are the same people arguing that Bomb squigs dont get dakka dakka, but they do. Both dakka dakka and this stratagem specifically mentions that it happens immediately.

Beardedragon wrote:
are people actually using different arguments or are people just repeating what they've previously said?

This thread is pointless at this point. the stratagem works for a character being able to fight before he dies, even if he fought earlier, regardless of whether you like it or not. Also regardless of whether or not its going to remain like that in the future.

It says you fight immediately, so immediately i shall fight.

The same people that think this doesnt work, are the same people arguing that Bomb squigs dont get dakka dakka, but they do. Both dakka dakka and this stratagem specifically mentions that it happens immediately.

I see an argument that might be new, but its based on a false premise that selecting a model means you are also selecting a unit. This is not true because RAW... nothing relevant to this thread says to do that.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
are people actually using different arguments or are people just repeating what they've previously said?

This thread is pointless at this point. the stratagem works for a character being able to fight before he dies, even if he fought earlier, regardless of whether you like it or not. Also regardless of whether or not its going to remain like that in the future.

It says you fight immediately, so immediately i shall fight.

The same people that think this doesnt work, are the same people arguing that Bomb squigs dont get dakka dakka, but they do. Both dakka dakka and this stratagem specifically mentions that it happens immediately.

I see an argument that might be new, but its based on a false premise that selecting a model means you are also selecting a unit. This is not true because RAW... nothing relevant to this thread says to do that.

well that sort of proves my point. You saw "an" argument that might be new. a single argument. Meaning everyone else is just repeating what they said.

 doctortom wrote:
You need to provide a citation where the strat still treats it as the same fight phase when going into the "fight/shoot as if it is was the fight/shooting phase".

No you need to provide a citation that says you go into some kind of a different phase, unless you are specifically instructed to create or enter a new phase then all the rules for the current phase remain in effect.

 Aftersong wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
You need to provide a citation where the strat still treats it as the same fight phase when going into the "fight/shoot as if it is was the fight/shooting phase".

No you need to provide a citation that says you go into some kind of a different phase, unless you are specifically instructed to create or enter a new phase then all the rules for the current phase remain in effect.

"Fight as it were the fight phase". That isn't the fight phase you're fighting in, as it could happen during any phase if your ork died while in engagement with an enemy. It is obvious that they have you handling this separately, then going back to whatever phase you were in (fight, shooting, psychic)

You haven't offered anything to refute it yet except the tired argument about the unit when we're told the model fights according to the strat, not a unit.

 doctortom wrote:
"Fight as it were the fight phase". That isn't the fight phase you're fighting in, as it could happen during any phase if your ork died while in engagement with an enemy. It is obvious that they have you handling this separately, then going back to whatever phase you were in (fight, shooting, psychic)

You haven't offered anything to refute it yet except the tired argument about the unit when we're told the model fights according to the strat, not a unit.

You are making my point for me, it says "Fight as if it were the fight phase" not "create an entirely new fight phase", not "if you are already in the fight phase making a separate one with new rules". OINB simply tells you to fight per the rules laid out in the fight phase, Thus you have to open your rulebook to the page where it outlines how to fight in the fight phase.

The first thing it will tell you to do is select a unit.

Cut and dry very simple.

 Aftersong wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
"Fight as it were the fight phase". That isn't the fight phase you're fighting in, as it could happen during any phase if your ork died while in engagement with an enemy. It is obvious that they have you handling this separately, then going back to whatever phase you were in (fight, shooting, psychic)

You haven't offered anything to refute it yet except the tired argument about the unit when we're told the model fights according to the strat, not a unit.

You are making my point for me, it says "Fight as if it were the fight phase" not "create an entirely new fight phase", not "if you are already in the fight phase making a separate one with new rules". OINB simply tells you to fight per the rules laid out in the fight phase, Thus you have to open your rulebook to the page where it outlines how to fight in the fight phase.

The first thing it will tell you to do is select a unit.

Cut and dry very simple.

The stratagem tells you the model fights, not a unit. So, it's telling you the model fights as if it's the fight phase. It's bypassed the
"select a unit" step you are insisting on.

It fights as if it's the fight phase (or shoot as if it's the shooting phase), but it's really ignoring whatver phase it actually is while you do the "as if".

 Aftersong wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
"Fight as it were the fight phase". That isn't the fight phase you're fighting in, as it could happen during any phase if your ork died while in engagement with an enemy. It is obvious that they have you handling this separately, then going back to whatever phase you were in (fight, shooting, psychic)

You haven't offered anything to refute it yet except the tired argument about the unit when we're told the model fights according to the strat, not a unit.

You are making my point for me, it says "Fight as if it were the fight phase" not "create an entirely new fight phase", not "if you are already in the fight phase making a separate one with new rules". OINB simply tells you to fight per the rules laid out in the fight phase, Thus you have to open your rulebook to the page where it outlines how to fight in the fight phase.

The first thing it will tell you to do is select a unit.

Cut and dry very simple.

Actually no.... OINB it literally says "fight as if it were the fight phase". . And so what? The only restriction on fighting twice is for units, not a model, and definitely not a model that a stratagem (more specific than the general rulebook) is telling the model to fight. The rules for Models in the fight phase is exactly this (pg72 skip over to the 3rd grey box with 2 red squares please). 1. a model can fight if its in engagement range, 2. a model can fight if its within 1/2" of another model in the same unit that's in engagement range (this one probably will never apply, unless there is a multi-model character unit). Here's something interesting... A model does not pile-in before you fight or part of your fight... units have that rule..

So if there were 3 different fight again style stratagems, you could have the same model fight 4 times and not contradict the main rule book, (but I don't trust GW to write that clearly enough)

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I like how half of this thread is people arguing the same result, but for completely different and mutually exclusive justifications.

Indeed. It's a near-perfect encapsulation of how useless this subforum is (for actually getting to the bottom of rules disputes) and at the same time how vital it is (for keeping this dross safely contained in its own silo)...

Yes having not weighed in on this thread because it's pointless. It is clear it works as it has always worked, you can fight again as it gives you permission to do so. Yes in new codexs they word it in a way to prevent this this doesn't mean old codexs work that way.

A solution to that is everyone gets to vote on how helpful or harmful each post is... sort of like Reddit.

I never see anyone hardly argue the contrary point and/or riducule anyone else out there. You'd get like a dozen negative votes on a topic like this one, that would have only 5 posts to get to a decent answer.