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Does having the Chapters at only 1000 marines make no sense in practice?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





A Chapter Master, especially a veteran one such as Dante, Calgar, or Lugft Huron, can and will take command of theatres of war. At that point what stops them from taking all of these forces and turning on the Imperium? Not a whole lot. So by reducing the number of the best troops available to said Chapter Master, the Imperium potentially prevents a calamity.
Lugft Huron was confident in his ability to win the Badab War because he had the double strength Astral Claws, the Mantis Warriors, the Lamenters, and thousands of troops from the Tyrant's Legion under his command alongside Battlefleet Maelstrom against what was originally one Chapter strike force and mortal household armies.


Yes, exactly this, this is what we should see more of if the numbers aren't going to change (which they obviously aren't.) Chapter Masters using their influence as power. Small groups of marines taking part in much larger actions and actually leading and supporting the main Astra Militarum forces. Going off on their own, or with limited support and trying to conquer systems just doesn't work.


15000 4000 3500 2500 :tyranid: 2500 1000 1000
1000 1000 1000 1000  
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Tawnis wrote:

Yes, exactly this, this is what we should see more of if the numbers aren't going to change (which they obviously aren't.) Chapter Masters using their influence as power. Small groups of marines taking part in much larger actions and actually leading and supporting the main Astra Militarum forces. Going off on their own, or with limited support and trying to conquer systems just doesn't work.

Except this kind of thing is very much not allowed and only in exceptional circumstances do Marine commanders take over theatre command.
Command of a force tasked with invading/liberating a planet or system (unless there is a serious enemy commander such as Abaddon or Ghazghkull) is left to a mortal commander.
Space Marines do actually go off on their own as strike forces to fight alongside Militarum Regiments, Sororitas Priories, Mechanicus Maniples, and Knight Lances in large scale engagements. There doesn't need to be an immediate support presence for every single Marine operation.
   
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Splattered With Acrylic Paint




 Gert wrote:
A Chapter Master, especially a veteran one such as Dante, Calgar, or Lugft Huron, can and will take command of theatres of war. At that point what stops them from taking all of these forces and turning on the Imperium?.


Do you think this might be the purpose of chapters compared to legions? When a marine is appointed to a job like this, the officers from other chapters and the guard and navy high commands choose to join or withdraw from the crusade. When Dante commanded the three chapters at Armageddon 2, it was with the support of tu’shan and calgar, and it was just for the purposes of fighting at Armageddon, they had no reason to follow him if he decided to attack earth. Also he didn’t have any real authority over them; he couldn’t demote Calgar and put one of his friends in charge of the Ultramarines chapter.

This is completely different than legions, where Abaddon and Erebus could cultivate officers in their own companies, but then get them appointed important commands all across their legions. Then, once again, those corrupt captains weren’t heads of their own organizations, it wasn’t their job to choose to submit to or withdraw from their enemies. Horus as warmaster also had the ability to choose who would be the next lord militant or lord admiral of other organizations.

That could be the main difference, what do you think?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 23:28:53


 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Curvaceous wrote:

Do you think this might be the purpose of chapters compared to legions? When a marine is appointed to a job like this, the officers from other chapters and the guard and navy high commands choose to join or withdraw from the crusade. When Dante commanded the three chapters at Armageddon 2, it was with the support of tu’shan and calgar, and it was just for the purposes of fighting at Armageddon, they had no reason to follow him if he decided to attack earth. Also he didn’t have any real authority over them; he couldn’t demote Calgar and put one of his friends in charge of the Ultramarines chapter.

This is completely different than legions, where Abaddon and Erebus could cultivate officers in their own companies, but then get them appointed important commands all across their legions. Then, once again, those corrupt captains weren’t heads of their own organizations, it wasn’t their job to choose to submit to or withdraw from their enemies. Horus as warmaster also had the ability to choose who would be the next lord militant or lord admiral of other organizations.

That could be the main difference, what do you think?

That's the idea behind it. Technically any Imperial commander can refuse to serve under an Astartes, most just don't because the Astartes is at least twice your age with better knowledge, skills, and abilities.

It does become an issue when we look at things like the Chapters of the Blood or the Unforgiven, especially the latter. A Company of Carmine Blades (BA Successor) doesn't have to follow the commands of Dante but probably will. The Unforgiven are even worse as they all (bar a few) serve under Azrael (or any DA Chapter Master) without question especially in matters pertaining to the Fallen. The spirit of the Legions is strong in many Chapters but the further a Chapter is from its founder, the less likely they are to be subservient. Take the Emperor's Spears for example who very much don't care about their founders, the Ultramarines, in any way.

Then on top of the "unofficial Legions", there are formations like the Ultramar Defence Auxilia who are placed directly under the command of the Ultramarines and possibly their Successors even before the return of Guilliman. If the leader of one of the greatest Chapters in history, a living Angel of the Emperor, says that your Regiment must march on Terra to prevent it's fall into the hands of Heretics, are you going to question them? Are you going to question them after the last officer had their head burst like a watermelon? There are a lot of instances where non-SM forces end up against the Imperium because they followed the wrong person.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/22 23:43:30


 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch






One marine can kill an entire planet with one hand tied behind his back while sipping a cup of tea with the other.

Now imagine what a 1000 marines can do...
Like if you cloned chuck norris a thusand times, you could get anything done

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I think the Dark angels are an exception. They are extremely narcissistic and have clearly hidden a much larger force than 1000 marines on the rock and, has been said, retained control of the successor chapters.

This is why I think the lion is still the best primarch to return next, story wise, if we are to get more primarchs. He essentially has a legion sized force to control and could go on a big crusade into the dark imperium. Plus RG would have to be really cross with him but let him get away with it out of pragmatism. Which is their whole relationship I believe.
   
Made in us
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I'm not against the idea of dividing legions into chapters, I just think both of them require larger numbers to have done what they do. A straight x10 to both would satisfy IMO.

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Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






Adding numbers doesn't fix anything because it's not the specific numbers of Astartes that's the issue, rather it's the fact that despite supposedly being rare forces SM are frontline for 90% of GW's materials because sales.
A Legion being 150k strong isn't a bad number because the Legions had superior "recruiting" techniques compared to modern SM Chapters. Rapid indoctrination and implantation meant that even after events such as Isstvan III and V the Traitor forces could just rebuild most of their losses while also taking the weapons, armour and equipment of the Loyalists killed in these engagements.
As for Chapters, again we should be seeing more situations like the Carcharadons where there is a serious struggle to maintain manpower and equipment in an age of constant warfare. The Carcharadons have to literally strip planets bare of human life to sustain their numbers of both Astartes and crew/slaves and need to go on dangerous expeditions to salvage archeotech to get equipment from the Mechanicus.

TLDR, it's not a numbers problem its a marketing problem.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Gert wrote:
Adding numbers doesn't fix anything because it's not the specific numbers of Astartes that's the issue, rather it's the fact that despite supposedly being rare forces SM are frontline for 90% of GW's materials because sales.
A Legion being 150k strong isn't a bad number because the Legions had superior "recruiting" techniques compared to modern SM Chapters. Rapid indoctrination and implantation meant that even after events such as Isstvan III and V the Traitor forces could just rebuild most of their losses while also taking the weapons, armour and equipment of the Loyalists killed in these engagements.
As for Chapters, again we should be seeing more situations like the Carcharadons where there is a serious struggle to maintain manpower and equipment in an age of constant warfare. The Carcharadons have to literally strip planets bare of human life to sustain their numbers of both Astartes and crew/slaves and need to go on dangerous expeditions to salvage archeotech to get equipment from the Mechanicus.

TLDR, it's not a numbers problem its a marketing problem.


I mean TBH in war fiction that's the norm, people tend to focus on the elites not the more common thing.
case in point the Hawker Hurricane was the more numerous RAF figter during the battle of Britan but the Spitfire's the one everyone talks about

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






BrianDavion wrote:

I mean TBH in war fiction that's the norm, people tend to focus on the elites not the more common thing.
case in point the Hawker Hurricane was the more numerous RAF figter during the battle of Britan but the Spitfire's the one everyone talks about

For sure, Special Forces stories are always daring raids and valiant rescues, stuff that makes good stories.
Also 100%, the Hurricane is underrepresented just because the Spitfire has a cool name.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

The Spitfire is also a more sleek looking aircraft, vs the cunning brutality of the Hurricane.
The Spitfire was also the modern aircraft with better performance, and was advertised more by the UK at the time. Funding drives allowed you to buy Spitfires for example.

Although saying that, both of the period posters on my walls show Hurricanes! They also show Vickers Mk.IIs so you can easily argue that's because the artists didn't get access to the best stuff!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 11:46:00


 
   
 
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