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How do you feel about the double-turn?
10 - Fantastic rule, favorite part of AoS.
9
8
7 - This rule generally increases enjoyment of the game.
6
5 - Apathetic and/or feel the benefits are even with the downsides.
4
3 - This rule generally reduces enjoyment of the game.
2
1
0 - Awful rule, worst part of AoS.

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Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





I would say that I'd bet everything I own that if you had no group playing the game, that those new players you talked about - most of them would not invest.

If all it took were awesome models to build a large active community there would be a lot of other games that had just a strong a showing as the gw games.

Just peering into the GW-verse itself... look at Warcry or Killteam. Those are using some pretty outstanding models, but the community for those games is largely hit or miss. Some places its great, other places no one touches it, and getting people to invest in those games can be difficult because of a shaky community. However every single city or region I've ever been to the past 15 - 20 years has a booming 40k and whfb/aos community (barring 2015 - to mid 2016 where AOS was as hit or miss due to no official points and only fan points).

And to top that off, you don't even need a ton of models for those games so is cheaper and even easier to transport... but the playerbase being shaky puts off a ton of people to wanting to invest in it.

But again - fabulous models.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 17:19:08


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






..I mean, it's a good thing you didnt. We literally just started a Kill Team community from nothing in the little nerd/pop culture shop in my home town.

I moved towns in March of 2020, so obviously it was a great way to get to know my new community that everything was closed, but the little shopping center built into an old mill building just re-opened a few months ago and I wandered in knowing there was some sort of Nerd Store there at the very least, and the manager said they had magic, DnD, and they'd just picked up warhammer.

Other than a couple of the DnD figures and knockoff lego figures, no miniatures in the whole shop. I hopped on their discord, said "hey folks, I'm gonna run a demo for Kill Team, I'll bring the terrain and we'll set up on folding tables out in this stage area."

10 people showed up to that first demo, and 6 of them came back for the new edition (they literally announced the new edition WHILE I was running the demo, I packed up, checked my phone and had a message from the store owner thinking I had some kind of pre-release copy of the new thing that just came out)

If a shop is willing to provide tables and let you store terrain and sell models, and you're willing to teach people how to play, you can get a game off the ground. The fewer miniatures you need to play that game, the easier it is to do it. If the buy-in is 'one box of minis' like it is with Kill Team, you can get anyone you want.

Battle games like Warhammer and Sigmar are actually among the hardest in this respect - but is like youre pretending every game has a 1000$ buy-in. Most dont have anywhere near that much. It costs very slightly more to get into kill team than it does to get into a starter deck for like MTG.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





Yeah - if you have an organizer it can be great. Like I said - I took Conquest up to 20 players in a year and that game is largely not played anywhere still (covid is partially responsible for that).

But it requires an organizer.

You can guarantee anywhere you go in the states there will be both an AOS and 40k community and no one will have to start it from scratch.

Thats huge.

Any other game - you have to have someone set out to organize it. And then thats going to be hit or miss.

Also check my underlined text. "Some places its great, other places not so much." That acknowledges that in some places it has a good showing, and in other places not at all. I never said no one plays it. I specifically stated in some places its great because I know in some places it gets played a lot.

I've never seen an organized group of warcry anywhere in the midwest and now i'm in the southwest, I have not seen it here either.

The $1000 buy in is reserved for 40k or AOS. I never said every game has a $1000 buy in. Mass battle games definitely do these days and everywhere I'm mentioning investing $1000 it is 100% discussing games like 40k or AOS, not skirmish level games.

The average cost of a full AOS army is roughly $800 or in that ball park. And thats not buying anything extra, thats just getting you rolling and ready to play "standard" formats. (and yes thats retail not discounted)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 17:23:35


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 auticus wrote:
Yeah - if you have an organizer it can be great. Like I said - I took Conquest up to 20 players in a year and that game is largely not played anywhere still (covid is partially responsible for that).

But it requires an organizer.

You can guarantee anywhere you go in the states there will be both an AOS and 40k community and no one will have to start it from scratch.


So, I'm having an extremely extremely tough time seeing how this could possibly be true.

let's rewind time - say I walked into that shop, talked to the shop owner, he says they just got warhammer miniatures in stock and I've got nothing, no models no terrain. The store had tables, because they play friday night magic, but that's the resource they have to offer.

Why would it be possible for me to get games of warhammer 40,000 or Age of Sigmar in that shop but starting with Kill Team I have to do the work as an organizer and teach people the game?

and again, if we're agreeing and understanding that age of sigmar basically started in 201...8(?) with the general's handbook..how could that possibly be true for AOS? Did Games Workshop act as the organizer? Did it give stores the many thousands of dollars of terrain required to support a 40k and a sigmar scene? Or did a bunch of people like myself and evidently also like you do that work as organizers to get that together and support it?

and if that's true...why did they do that and why could they have not done that with any other game, say, Conquest (I dont know what conquest is you just brought it up as your example.)

To me I do not see how DnD and MTG can possibly compare with 40k in that regard. You need one table per pair of people, of a larger than average size, with at the very least 300-400$ of terrain unless youve got an organizer making scratch-built terrain. DnD and MTG each require 1 table and a chair for each butt, and then each person invests with a minimal amount of cash.

The barrier to creating a 40k/sigmar scene appears to require more investment by both organizer, store owner and players than basically any other system out there. Sigmar less so than 40k because you can literally throw down on an empty table and have a half-decent game, massive amounts of LOS blocking cover isnt a bare minimum requirement to have anything that even resembles a game.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I think the sentiment is that Warhammer has a larger appeal due to its size and popularity. Specifically, it does not suffer the consequences of poor rule writing in the same manner as any other wargame, because people will put up with that to have a readily accessible community as opposed to a better-written game that they need to build a community from scratch. Even building Warhammer communities from scratch is easier thanks to GWs broad media presence and a massive abundance of online resources.

The end result is GW can get away with rulesets well below the threshold of quality that would be demanded of any other company.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the sentiment is that Warhammer has a larger appeal due to its size and popularity. Specifically, it does not suffer the consequences of poor rule writing in the same manner as any other wargame, because people will put up with that to have a readily accessible community as opposed to a better-written game that they need to build a community from scratch. Even building Warhammer communities from scratch is easier thanks to GWs broad media presence and a massive abundance of online resources.

The end result is GW can get away with rulesets well below the threshold of quality that would be demanded of any other company.


Right, which is why AOS 1.0, when it had a garbage ruleset with no points that didn't allow players to balance their armies against each other, it...

wait, hang on.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





The entire point that spawned this is that AOS drives itself because of its community. That the rules don't really factor into that. That the miniatures themselves, while a great plus, aren't the full story of what drives players to pick up AOS.

You can disagree. Thats fine. We can't prove our points. Its impossible. If you feel AOS rules are great and thats why people flock to AOS, and that the miniatures sell the game and thats why people flock to AOS despite there being other games on the market that have come and gone that have pretty cool models but struggle to find any traction - and despite a large number of people that will willingly admit they play AOS for the social aspect and because everyone else plays it and thats key in their investment decision, then cool.

I'm sure that there are some people that exist that find AOS the rules to be fantastic. I just don't believe that there are a large number of those people and I believe that if any other gaming company produced AOS, it would have flopped bigtime. I say that based on my own experience trying to (successfully and some not successfully) get other games going and hearing the reasons why people choose to play games, and I say that based on my own experience in the game dev world where we have marketers harvesting that exact data saying that exact thing. AOS is wildly successful much like world of warcraft, because its got a playerbase too big to fail. The one thing we learned from AOS over the past six years is the only cardinal sin is not having official points. Anything else rules-wise would likely not really impact the juggernaut that is GW mainline games.

If I start seeing contrary - a large number of people glorifying AOS rules as awesome, and if I start seeing large communities springing up over other 3rd party non-gw games that have great miniatures because the miniatures are great and whose members invested heavily into said 3rd party game just because the miniatures are great despite the risk of not having other players playing, I will certainly reevaluate my opinion.

On topic: The double turn. What we know for sure on dakka. The majority will vote either hating it, or meh they dont care either way. Thats about how this poll shapes on every aspect of social media (facebook, twitter, forums) that I've ever encountered it on.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 20:54:35


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






to be clear here, my stance on this: When it comes to Warhammer 40,000? I COMPLETELY agree with you. 100%, absolutely, people are ABSURDLY willing to put up with faults in that system much much more than any other game.

I think lumping sigmar in with that is a mistake. I think it's the only game GW actually has that secret sauce with. All their other games, Necromunda, Titanicus, Kill Team, Warcry, and yes AOS, most typically you've got to put in the work to build that community as much as any other game.

Maybe the online resources help, IDK, in my experience they actually really hinder building any kind of community from scratch because, well...look at this place for an immediate example, and also online communities even if they revolve around an in person activity have the same general level of sociopathy that any online group tends to engender, so you immediately know when someone is an "Online Person" when they come in to your in person group and they're spouting weird wild gak that makes socially functional people in the real world look at them like they have two heads.

In the grand scheme of things AOS just hasnt been around that long. Has it actually been a full 6 years? Christ on a bike it feels like yesterday, and people certainly treat it as if it was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To use an analogy here, this claim feels like if someone really didn't like fast-food burgers and said something like

"People only like these things because it's what they know, they know they can go to any town and get these burgers and that they're entrenched and always the same everywhere. Mcdonalds, Smashburger, people only go in to these places because theyve seen them before and theyre everywhere and globally entrenched." I think it's fair to examine whether it's really really true that these two things are actually equivalently established and entrenched when if you asked a person to name any restaurant youd probably get this place in the top 3, and the other is...yes a chain, but not anywhere near the same level.

I'm not saying this statement isnt generally true about large-entrenched systems. And I'm not saying the company that owns these brands doesnt have this brand that is globally entrenched. I'm saying there's a big degree of difference between a thing that's literally been ubiquitous for 30 years, and a thing that came from a starting point of 'basically zero' like 5 years ago.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 18:09:17


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





and a thing that came from a starting point of 'basically zero' like 5 years ago.


Fantasy wargaming as a thing has been entrenched for like 40 or more years.

When someone wants to play a fantasy wargame, AOS may be new but has the most entrenched company and built in player base of any company. If we could go back six years in time and say... not destroy whfb but make AOS seperate and its own thing, this conversation would probably be taking a different turn. How would AOS have done if WHFB was never destroyed? I know from speaking to several people that worked at GW at the time of this transition that this topic was kicked around, and ultimately based on their sales meetings the choice to scrap WHFB was because the marketing team did not want AOS competing with a similar product in the same company because they felt it wouldn't do as good (it would "split" the community). I have to wonder where AOS would be if WHFB had not been set on fire and destroyed... if it were still a valid product with updates etc. Even sharing hte models and having sigmarines be part of the old world... where would most of the gameplay lie? WOuld people have just scrapped WHFB and hopped to AOS if both rulesets were living? I honestly can't answer, I'd like to answer of course with hell no but I honestly don't know.

While AOS itself is newer (six years now I wouldn't consider that really new anymore) - when people come into the hobby and want the fantasy version of wargaming, and do their research - AOS was always going to be the most attractive choice from an investment standpoint.

That factor plays a massive role.

Now we can debate on how important the investment standpoint really is - and there have been dozens of polls on that very topic here in general chat and other forums and facebook and twitter, and all of the ones I have seen over the years pointed at the community and social aspect and feeling safe to invest that kind of money into a game as #1. This was a real eye opener for me as a games designer in 2016 or so when the number of people that had balance as #3 or #4 on their list were so prevalent because at that point I had been under the assumption that balance was just as important as anything else - but balance in a game to the majority of people that answer those polls was never really a strong consideration. It was always about the investment and the community #1 and #2, the models next, then the game after that according to those polls.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 18:30:37


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






 the_scotsman wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the sentiment is that Warhammer has a larger appeal due to its size and popularity. Specifically, it does not suffer the consequences of poor rule writing in the same manner as any other wargame, because people will put up with that to have a readily accessible community as opposed to a better-written game that they need to build a community from scratch. Even building Warhammer communities from scratch is easier thanks to GWs broad media presence and a massive abundance of online resources.

The end result is GW can get away with rulesets well below the threshold of quality that would be demanded of any other company.


Right, which is why AOS 1.0, when it had a garbage ruleset with no points that didn't allow players to balance their armies against each other, it...

wait, hang on.
It means the threshold where people won't play is at a different level, not that doesn't exist. Black knights are fond of saying GW fans will eat whatever they are fed, AoS launch showed quite clearly that no, there is a level of dumpster fire people won't tolerate even from GW.

As a sidenote to ensure I am not being misinterpreted; I think AoS is a great ruleset. There are several very notable flaws yet the very nature that they can be picked out so easily is because the bad sticks out more when there is a lot of good around it. 40k is harder to define, especially beyond broad concepts, because so much of it is so flawed that they all bleed into each other and corrupt otherwise good portions of rules.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 18:32:31


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 auticus wrote:
and a thing that came from a starting point of 'basically zero' like 5 years ago.


Fantasy wargaming as a thing has been entrenched for like 40 or more years.

When someone wants to play a fantasy wargame, AOS may be new but has the most entrenched company and built in player base of any company. If we could go back six years in time and say... not destroy whfb but make AOS seperate and its own thing, this conversation would probably be taking a different turn. How would AOS have done if WHFB was never destroyed? I know from speaking to several people that worked at GW at the time of this transition that this topic was kicked around, and ultimately based on their sales meetings the choice to scrap WHFB was because the marketing team did not want AOS competing with a similar product in the same company because they felt it wouldn't do as good (it would "split" the community). I have to wonder where AOS would be if WHFB had not been set on fire and destroyed... if it were still a valid product with updates etc. Even sharing hte models and having sigmarines be part of the old world... where would most of the gameplay lie? WOuld people have just scrapped WHFB and hopped to AOS if both rulesets were living? I honestly can't answer, I'd like to answer of course with hell no but I honestly don't know.

While AOS itself is newer (six years now I wouldn't consider that really new anymore) - when people come into the hobby and want the fantasy version of wargaming, and do their research - AOS was always going to be the most attractive choice from an investment standpoint.

That factor plays a massive role.

Now we can debate on how important the investment standpoint really is - and there have been dozens of polls on that very topic here in general chat and other forums and facebook and twitter, and all of the ones I have seen over the years pointed at the community and social aspect and feeling safe to invest that kind of money into a game as #1. This was a real eye opener for me as a games designer in 2016 or so when the number of people that had balance as #3 or #4 on their list were so prevalent because at that point I had been under the assumption that balance was just as important as anything else - but balance in a game to the majority of people that answer those polls was never really a strong consideration. It was always about the investment and the community #1 and #2, the models next, then the game after that according to those polls.


While that is true, I'd like to point out that the same exact company, biggest in the market, ALSO produces a fantasy wargame for The. Most. Recognizable. Fantasy. IP. Ever. And the oldest, too. And by many accounts, it's a very very good game. And it costs less as its more of a 'big skirmish' than a full army battle game.

But look at the miniatures for it. If you walk up to a table and someone is playing LOTR, or the new kid on the block ASOIAF minis, you see a bunch of little knight miniatures, maybe if you hold one up to your face you go 'oh yeah, that's a gandalf right there.'

The most impressive miniature that ASOIAF has is these little plastic dragons. Theyre pretty well-detailed, sure, but they're not the kind of thing someones gonna see from across the shop and go "WOAH what is THAT?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the sentiment is that Warhammer has a larger appeal due to its size and popularity. Specifically, it does not suffer the consequences of poor rule writing in the same manner as any other wargame, because people will put up with that to have a readily accessible community as opposed to a better-written game that they need to build a community from scratch. Even building Warhammer communities from scratch is easier thanks to GWs broad media presence and a massive abundance of online resources.

The end result is GW can get away with rulesets well below the threshold of quality that would be demanded of any other company.


Right, which is why AOS 1.0, when it had a garbage ruleset with no points that didn't allow players to balance their armies against each other, it...

wait, hang on.
It means the threshold where people won't play is at a different level, not that doesn't exist. Black knights are fond of saying GW fans will eat whatever they are fed, AoS launch showed quite clearly that no, there is a level of dumpster fire people won't tolerate even from GW.

As a sidenote to ensure I am not being misinterpreted; I think AoS is a great ruleset. There are several very notable flaws yet the very nature that they can be picked out so easily is because the bad sticks out more when there is a lot of good around it. 40k is harder to define, especially beyond broad concepts, because so much of it is so flawed that they all bleed into each other and corrupt otherwise good portions of rules.


Yep, and I think there's something to GW previously being just a little bit less ghoulish with AOS content than they are with 40k - an actual, functional ruleset was actually free during 2.0 (you could play with Core Rules and the free warscrolls), they actually dropped prices down a little bit after the disastrous first few releases (see Fyreslayers vs a later army for example) and their mid-edition expansion books actually gave everyone a little bit of something instead of just continuing the faction-by-faction power creep like Psychic Awakening did.

This is very clearly a business strategy on GW's part, as well as I definitely think things like ditching those free warscrolls with 3rd is an attempt to try and get that frog boiled to the same level theyve got with 40k.

But its important to actually be able to point to these distinctions and realize that stuff is happening and there actually is a difference between these two systems. People love hyperbolizing and if you can't stop doing that, then theres no actual way to point out distinctions between systems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think, honestly, I've changed my mind.

I am going to try and get my community to reject the double turn mechanic.
[Thumb - mother_of_dragons_contents-1.png]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 19:00:32


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






Whatever results from it in the end, I hope your group enjoys it.

I believe that AoS double turn mechanic can exist, but not in the current climate of aos. The meta is too brutal, too heavy in to shooting and magic buffs ATM. Right now a mechanic that should be balancing out imbalances in armies is making the balance issues more apparent.

So right now I would rather not have it in the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/26 19:55:14


 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
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Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





Lord of the Rings does suffer from not having a masters of the universe huge centerpiece style modeling design. Lord of the Rings is also, funny enough as it is a skirmish game, more about the bulk of the forces than AOS is.

Lord of the Rings was one of our failed attempts to get something going. I tried three times. The most successful was shortly after the movies. We had about 9 players. Almost all historical players though. Only myself and another played WHFB, the rest were all historicals.

The other two times (2013 and 2016) it failed to attract anyone for a number of reasons:

* no giant centerpiece models (accurate assessment that models make a lot of the decisions as well)

* not exciting enough because it was seen more as a historical game because the history was already written and you were playing scenarios that came from the books/movies and already knew how those ended. Interesting enough almost all lord of the rings players I've played with were big historical gaming fans, which at least in my area was very very niche.

* no one else plays it, so trepidation on buying models since it was seen as a fad game whose community was largely only seen at big cons and players couldn't drive to other cities to get games in. (the familiar self defeating prophecy for a lot of games)
   
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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





Utterly pointless at best, a detriment at worst. The people who would be upset by Double Turn's removal would be the same people who will keep playing AoS no matter what anyway - their frustration would only last ten seconds tops. I can genuinely say that I've never once seen somebody say "I play AoS for the double turn" or "I play AoS for the interesting mechanics like double turn" but I have heard plenty of people state it's the reason they won't.

If shooting was less prominent then maybe I could see it being less harmful, what with the combats alternating but once again it loops around to "what's the point of having it at all then?"

I'm often baffled that in many cases the people defending it's inclusion as something you need to "git gud" for are the same ones who preach AoS should simultaneously be Baby's First Wargame.

But look at the miniatures for it. If you walk up to a table and someone is playing LOTR, or the new kid on the block ASOIAF minis, you see a bunch of little knight miniatures, maybe if you hold one up to your face you go 'oh yeah, that's a gandalf right there.'

Which is funny because I remember a time when the Mumakil was the biggest kit GW had ever made, plus stuff like the Balrog and Sauron being true centrepieces as far back as Fellowship. Obviously things moved on pretty quickly, but the contrast to now and then is telling.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/26 21:12:36


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Every game I have had with a double turn (I'll admit I have yet to play 3rd) has been a miserable experience.

From one 2vs2 games were an idoneth+slaanesh list had a double turn in that mission where you burn objetives and they basically reached our objetives (myself ogres my ally stormcast), beaten our units out of them and burned them... we literally remade the game because it lasted like 20 minutes. And is not like we didn't planned for the double! We didn't move because we were like "Ok they are much faster than us, if they get double they are gonna ignore us and burn our objetives lets protec them" but haha lol.

Then a ton, and I mean a ton of shooting stormcast fiesta, kharadron and tzeentch double turn shooting bonanzas... but one of my favourites was myself playing a pretty mediocre khorne minotaur heavy lists against a ironjawz army. I moved a little because he, of course, gave me first turn and tried to prepare for his charge. He charged, started chaining attacks because ironjawz and I was like "ok he beated me badly but I can try to..." lol double turn no insta loss.


If the game really needs a mechanic like the double turn to not know who is gonna win just looking at the list... the feth? What gakky game are you even admitting to like and play? At that point the game is basically a fething coin flip. Is the worst argument you could make in favour of the double turn. "This game is so bad we need a mechanic tha basically is the equivalent of flipping a coin and waiting 2 hours to see the result"

At this point double turn, I'm sure, is one of those "designer" pet-projects. A badge of honour, of how ahead from the rest of the market they are. They know is awful, thats why they always try to alter it, but their egos just cannot accept to say "Guys, lets admit it, the game would be better without it an don't even need to make any changes, just remove it" publicly after so many years of trying to make it work. And worse! What would all the defenders say after being left like that by GW? Probably defend the decision of the removal of the double turn because it was an awful mechanic, just like they always do.


Double turn COULD be and I mean COULD be an acceptable mechanic if and only IF:
-Shooting was marginal
AND
-Combat was actually alternating units instead of all competitive armies having ways to alter the flow of combat to their benefit

so, in that hypotethical game, double turn would be basically double move. That could be acceptable. Is basically what "double turn" is in LOTR (And in that game it is totally integrated with heroic actions and might points use, adding depth tactical decision in how to use your valuable and limited resources). But we all know thats not how AoS works.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/27 02:06:23


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

 Arbitrator wrote:
Utterly pointless at best, a detriment at worst. The people who would be upset by Double Turn's removal would be the same people who will keep playing AoS no matter what anyway - their frustration would only last ten seconds tops. I can genuinely say that I've never once seen somebody say "I play AoS for the double turn" or "I play AoS for the interesting mechanics like double turn" but I have heard plenty of people state it's the reason they won't.

If shooting was less prominent then maybe I could see it being less harmful, what with the combats alternating but once again it loops around to "what's the point of having it at all then?"

I'm often baffled that in many cases the people defending it's inclusion as something you need to "git gud" for are the same ones who preach AoS should simultaneously be Baby's First Wargame.

But look at the miniatures for it. If you walk up to a table and someone is playing LOTR, or the new kid on the block ASOIAF minis, you see a bunch of little knight miniatures, maybe if you hold one up to your face you go 'oh yeah, that's a gandalf right there.'

Which is funny because I remember a time when the Mumakil was the biggest kit GW had ever made, plus stuff like the Balrog and Sauron being true centrepieces as far back as Fellowship. Obviously things moved on pretty quickly, but the contrast to now and then is telling.


Exalted.

www.classichammer.com

For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming

Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





Seconded.
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





So we conclude at:

50 hate it
30 don't care either way
25 love it

Or - by removing it you get 50 out of 105 people to perhaps play the game again and risk losing 25 of the 105 people (who I think would play the game either way as well)

I will say - if the double turn ever got removed or the game got put into proper alternate activations, I'd re invest in a small force again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/02 14:54:58


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 auticus wrote:
So we conclude at:

50 hate it
30 don't care either way
25 love it

Or - by removing it you get 50 out of 105 people to perhaps play the game again and risk losing 25 of the 105 people (who I think would play the game either way as well)

I will say - if the double turn ever got removed or the game got put into proper alternate activations, I'd re invest in a small force again.


ive played a few games now with no double turn and a fully alternating "combat phase" of the turn after IGOUGO player movement and I gotta say it's pretty enjoyable, though things are a little too fast (because youre effectively halving the amount of combat that takes place)

Pretty solid. Easy to house-rule. We just have the 2nd player always taking 2cp at the top of the battle round, and it seems to balance out the tempo advantage nicely. We're considering trying "If you want to charge, the charge is your movement and if you fail the charge you still move the distance rolled" as a variant, though I suspect high base mv units will still feel crazy fast.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos





One of the more acceptable house rules I did for campaign was incorporating an entirely alternating phase in AOS.

For a group that pretty much hated any house rules, we had a solid 60-75% approval rate on that one.

There are a few ways to get it done (like your example) but yeah it seemed in that small pocket of players to be something people enjoyed a lot more than full on AOS standard turns.
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






 the_scotsman wrote:
 auticus wrote:
So we conclude at:

50 hate it
30 don't care either way
25 love it

Or - by removing it you get 50 out of 105 people to perhaps play the game again and risk losing 25 of the 105 people (who I think would play the game either way as well)

I will say - if the double turn ever got removed or the game got put into proper alternate activations, I'd re invest in a small force again.


ive played a few games now with no double turn and a fully alternating "combat phase" of the turn after IGOUGO player movement and I gotta say it's pretty enjoyable, though things are a little too fast (because youre effectively halving the amount of combat that takes place)

Pretty solid. Easy to house-rule. We just have the 2nd player always taking 2cp at the top of the battle round, and it seems to balance out the tempo advantage nicely. We're considering trying "If you want to charge, the charge is your movement and if you fail the charge you still move the distance rolled" as a variant, though I suspect high base mv units will still feel crazy fast.


Just because I want to be clear on what you mean by fully alternating combat phase after IGOUGO...

Each player takes their hero-move-shoot phase, then it moves on to a combined charge/combat phase? Or am I completely out to lunch on that understanding?

=====

Either way. This weekend I had a no double turn match. We didn't agree to no double-turns, but it ended up just happening that way. I want to try my game again. Who-won-it?

Mission - GHB2021, Table 1 Mission 1. standard 11" deployment zone, 2 objectives in each territory, hold all 4 past round 3 to win.

Kruleboyz
Gobsprakk - Spell: Nasty Hex
Snatchaboss on Sludgeraker - Artifact, Morks Eye Pebble. Warlord Trait, Supa Sneaky. Mount Trait - Smelly'un
Swampcalla Shaman - Spell: doesnt matter

20 Gutrippaz
10 Gutrippaz
9 Boltboyz
10 Hobgrots

Killbow
Killbow

Big Yellerz subfaction
Noisey Racket Dirty Trick

Ogor Mawtribes
Underguts Tribe
Slaughtermaster - General, mass of scars. Gnoblar blastkeg. Spell: Ribcracker
Frostlord on Stonehorn - Metalcruncher mount trait

6 Gluttons
6 Gluttons
8 Leadbelchers
8 Leadbelchers
4 Leadbelchers

One drop batallion.

Ogors deployed first. Chose Kruleboyz to go first. No double turns occurred. Whowonnit?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/02 18:59:45


 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
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Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Thats a good amount of 18" shooting with the leadbelchers... but I don't know good enough about krule boyz

I'm gonna say Kruleboyz, a good amount of shooting agaisnt those big ogor monsters. But as an ogor player I'm rooting for the ogors lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/02 19:57:32


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I think the ogors have the edge; their shooting is ideal for taking out Kruleboyz, but the reverse isn't true. I think the ogors are more likely to end up clearing the Kruleboyz off objectives then charging in to seize them by numbers. So much of it comes down to how far apart they deployed though; did the ogor player know to be more than 27" away?

Lol@swampcalla spell

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/03 19:23:36


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
ERJAK wrote:
...probably has a some amount of Nazi memorabilia, has many concerning opinions about racial and cultural minorities, and/or likely refers to women as 'females'.
--Saying this about another member does not violate Dakka's Rule #1, apparently. 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Chicago, IL

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Funny thing is I was running tournaments at the start of the edition with a house rule that random initiative didn't start until round 3--the point was to help players get practice with tourney armies in the new edition so deliberately acting to ensure games didn't end prematurely made sense. I later removed that house rule, and players immediately asked for it back.


A bit late to the party, but I love this house rule. I will be giving it a go.
   
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





United States

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
People actually like AOS models?


I do, a lot. Since they aren't tied down to 30 years of broing lore as 40K is, they seem to get much more interesting designs for armies.

I bought in originally with Orruks, then with lumineth, moving into Soulblight, and lastly into Stormcasts and Lizardmen. I've been thinking about getting a chaos faction, though I'm waiting for the Chaos Dwarves to be announced. I also have giants which are a fantastic model to build/paint/play.

As for Double-Turn, I have been playing a lot lately and it really hasn't seemed to make that huge of an impact. I'd like to play more before I make a final decision, but now that I better understand it and how to play it or counter it, I really have no issue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/04 10:48:29


 
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think the ogors have the edge; their shooting is ideal for taking out Kruleboyz, but the reverse isn't true. I think the ogors are more likely to end up clearing the Kruleboyz off objectives then charging in to seize them by numbers. So much of it comes down to how far apart they deployed though; did the ogor player know to be more than 27" away?

Lol@swampcalla spell


Hey it's true, if your Swampcalla is casting a spell, you're already losing the game. They're not even wizards in my eyes, they're buff-sticks with one unbind attempt.

Anyways, I figure it's been enough time, still no crowd that claims victory can be easily known by looking at lists...

Kruleboyz took the win, just barely holding on by a milimeter. One Gutrippa stopping Leadbelchers from charging on to an objective by bodyblocking a gap between himself and a terrain piece.

Ogor player didn't deploy 27" away, and I'm not too sure why. Maybe because he had to deploy his whole army first, and I was able to reactively deploy to answer him? Either way, my first turn was getting buffs up, moving in to positions, and killing 5 out of one of 8-ogor leadbelcher unit. Hobgrots, having been supa-sneaky redeployed behind a LOS-blocking building near the middle of the table, hopped out to hold a middle-table chokepoint.

So moving on to ogor turn 1, his path ahead for the stonehorn was blocked by hobgrots. He had a choice, start shooting at my heroes/gutrippaz and kill the hobgrots with the stonehorn, and eat Unleash Hell from boltboyz, or, shoot the hobgrots and try a charge in to my Snatchaboss and eat Unleash Hell anyways. He chose to shoot the hobgrots, taking a lot of work to chew through them all with Noisey Racket -1 to wound, and 5+ FNP from Morks Eye Pebble.

Stonehorn charged in, failed to kill Snatchaboss. Noisy Racket, All-out-defence, Smelly-un, and a mistake from the Ogor player that he chose to live with. He failed to realize that he could use an Unbracket Command Ability in the Charge Phase when he ate a gakload of mortal wound shots, and then use a buffing command ability in the Fight phase. Instead, unbracket was used in Fight phase. He's the kind of player that likes to learn from messing up. Snatchaboss claps back, finishes off the near-dead Stonehorn by rolling 3 6s on the Boss's melee weapon. Something like 12 total damage, unfortunately Battlescribe isn't showing me the boss' melee weapon, so it's between 9 and 12 mortal wounds.

I win next turn. I start moving backwards, having felt I won big. Hiding behind terrain or moving back so I would force him to take d3 leadbelcher shots, or take bad shots. Plinking off more leadbelchers and gluttons, fairly unexciting Round 2 and Turn 3 for me.

Had a gang of gluttons get on my least defended objective, held by 10 Gutrippaz and my sludgeraker a bit far away. Leadbelchers charge my 15-remaining unit of gutrippaz on the other objective. Nearly lost right there by him almost holding 4. Manage to kill them off, and he doesn't have enough left to really win, so we call it around turn 4.

Missing some details or not remembering right, but the most important turns were Bottom 1 and Top 3.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/04 15:06:33


 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
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- 2750 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Thadin wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
 auticus wrote:
So we conclude at:

50 hate it
30 don't care either way
25 love it

Or - by removing it you get 50 out of 105 people to perhaps play the game again and risk losing 25 of the 105 people (who I think would play the game either way as well)

I will say - if the double turn ever got removed or the game got put into proper alternate activations, I'd re invest in a small force again.


ive played a few games now with no double turn and a fully alternating "combat phase" of the turn after IGOUGO player movement and I gotta say it's pretty enjoyable, though things are a little too fast (because youre effectively halving the amount of combat that takes place)

Pretty solid. Easy to house-rule. We just have the 2nd player always taking 2cp at the top of the battle round, and it seems to balance out the tempo advantage nicely. We're considering trying "If you want to charge, the charge is your movement and if you fail the charge you still move the distance rolled" as a variant, though I suspect high base mv units will still feel crazy fast.


Just because I want to be clear on what you mean by fully alternating combat phase after IGOUGO...

Each player takes their hero-move-shoot phase, then it moves on to a combined charge/combat phase? Or am I completely out to lunch on that understanding?


We did:

-Top of the battle round: Second player gets 2 command points, First player gets 1 command point

-Simultaneous Hero Phase: Starting with the first player, each player takes turns doing their hero phase stuff one action at a time (so one psychic power or heroic action or whatever at a time)

-Player 1 movement phase and Charge phase
-Player 2 movement phase and Charge phase

-Unified combat phase where players take turns selecting units to either shoot, or pile in and fight, starting with the first player, and a unit that shoots can later be selected to pile in and fight, we used 2 colored markers (you know, because that is a possibility in AOS that you could do that)

pretty good results. I liked it better than full alt activation because you still had that 'sweeping maneuvers of armies' stage of the turn where everything on your side acted in unison, and then you had the combat phase (which still has a lot of movement in it as well) where it was more of the nitty-gritty.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





Ohhhh, I love that. I might try it out if I can convince somebody to go along with it.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Rihgu wrote:
Ohhhh, I love that. I might try it out if I can convince somebody to go along with it.


We ran into a couple hurdles, i've rejiggered a bit for next time.

Here's what im gonna do: basically go phase by phase, alternating except for the regular movement phase.

Player 1 always gets 1CP, player 2 always gets 2Cp at the top of the round.

Step 1: alternating hero phase. Players alternate casting spells, chanting prayers, doing command abilities and taking their hero action.

Step 2: IGOUGO movement, starting with player 1

Step 3: Combined, alternating shooting+charge phase. Players alternate selecting units, keeping in mind that a unit can if it wants to both shoot and charge, but you'd have to select it two times to do that.

Step 4: Alternating Combat phase.

the problem we ran into with IGOUGO Movement+Charge and then an all-combat phase, was "What happens if Player 1 charges one of Player 2's units, then they go and they retreat with that unit?"

A couple things you should consider are:

1) There are technically half as many Combat phases (though of course if youve played sigmar you understand that you can typically very much mitigate your opponent's impact in your combat phase quite a bit) which means the game is a bit less deadly overall which I personally do not mind.

2) there are also half as many Hero Phases, but only in terms of Heroic Actions. This has not really mattered much in the small bit of testing weve done so far. But it is there and an alteration from the core rules.

Also, under this system, there is a distinct advantage to both going first and going second that very much changes the flavor of the game. First player ALWAYS has a tempo advantage in terms of the core combat phase and second player ALWAYS has a positioning advantage. The second player can arrange the battlefield kind of as they see fit, but they always have to have in the back of their head that the first player gets that first cast/hero action, that first shoot or charge, and that first combat activation, which seriously adds up.

We're considering adding random initiative back in, lol, even though we literally took it out as our first rules change.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/04 22:20:15


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






Is it that big of a problem if the enemy uses it's move to Retreat after being charged? They wouldn't be able to shoot in the combined-combat phase, right?

Anyways, under this hybrid igougo/AA system, initiative rolls isn't that big of a deal. LOTR tabletop uses Initiative rolls, but it's not a problematic mechanic as far as I can tell.

 Rippy wrote:
When you lose to a 7 year old, it's wise to not come and admit it and then try to blame the armies


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
 
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