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Made in au
Black Templar Chaplain with Hate to Spare







And yet Cultists and Daemon Princes exist in both the TSons and DG books, Chaos Lords are in the DG book and Sorcerers are in the TSons book.

That's already a few shared units. It'd be weird for cult units to also be removed.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are not in the codex? And our Terminators have lost the ability to take any combination of available weapons they've had for 26 years? Well I'm officially hoping this is a fake. As if that Night Lords trait wasn't bad enough......

It sounds stupid enough to be true.

The one thing that makes me question it is World Eaters being removed from the codex. That'd feel like GW giving the game away far too early when they're usually very keen to play future releases close to their chest, at least outside of anything but Community/previews.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 10:28:04


 
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






 Arbitrator wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are not in the codex? And our Terminators have lost the ability to take any combination of available weapons they've had for 26 years? Well I'm officially hoping this is a fake. As if that Night Lords trait wasn't bad enough......

It sounds stupid enough to be true.

The one thing that makes me question it is World Eaters being removed from the codex. That'd feel like GW giving the game away far too early when they're usually very keen to play future releases close to their chest, at least outside of anything but Community/previews.


Black Templars got a downloadable PDF supplement alongside the marines codex, despite their book being around a year away. Fully expect to see the same treatment for WE if their codex isn't due soon.

It's still not clear yet who will share the summer boxed set with marines; CSM or WE.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





 xttz wrote:
There seems to be a definite effort in 9th to remove 'duplicate' datasheets where possible. GSC is the most obvious example with all the guard stuff gone now, plus there's all the convoluted marine units with special behaviour so they don't have to copy/paste similar datasheets into chapter supplements.

Presumably it's to make maintaining the rules easier, but really it's yet another symptom of game rules still relying on printed materials in 2022.


Apart from the obvious "make rules digital" solution, GW could always create a PDF portal on WarCom. You go there, enter the unique code that each codex has for the app now and it then provides you with any additional datasheets you need, with these PDFs being kept up to date. So I could use a GSC code to get access to the relevant datasheets from the guard codex and likewise for these future chaos releases. It could also be used to add the various deamons back into the DG and TS codexs!
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Nah I call BS on the Cult units being removed, and you can't just use "hur dur GW dumb" as reasoning for that being true.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Gert wrote:
Nah I call BS on the Cult units being removed, and you can't just use "hur dur GW dumb" as reasoning for that being true.

Yeah, I have to agree with you on that. It causes several problems:

1: Cult Marines have been in every CSM codex for the last 26 years. It would be bizarre to change that.

2: If the datasheets for Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are removed, but you can still use them, then you'd need four codexes for the complete rules for the army. Three of which would just be for one unit each. I know we expect gw to grab for cash at every opportunity, but that sounds like a bridge too far.

3: No Legion traits for any of them. While I can kind of see them doing that to Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Word Bearers (they've done similar before), Black Legion? No. Having a full selection of all of the various CSM forces is part of their lore, and has been the same for rules. They have their own Berzerkers (the Hounds of Abaddon), their own Plague Marines (the Bringers of Decay), their own Rubrics (Sons of the Cyclops), and their own Noise Marines (the Children of Torment). Penalizing them for bringing them makes no sense.

This is the straw that breaks the camel's back for me. I can't believe these leaks are completely true.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Exactly Gad, I mean there have been specific examples of at least the Word Bearers using Berzerkers before and the Alpha Legion aren't ones to turn down free assets. I stand by my belief that this is bunk.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 11:25:42


 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 Gert wrote:
Nah I call BS on the Cult units being removed, and you can't just use "hur dur GW dumb" as reasoning for that being true.

GSC lost Brood Brother units despite them having a kit for it, so it's not like there isn't a precedent, right down to the rule about not losing traits if you include them from another codex.
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






 Arbitrator wrote:
GSC lost Brood Brother units despite them having a kit for it, so it's not like there isn't a precedent, right down to the rule about not losing traits if you include them from another codex.

Brood Brothers were a worse copy-paste of the Guardsman Squad, yes you have to take a full detachment to use them or just use them as Neophytes but it's so not the same thing for units that have been a staple of an army for over like 30 years. And as a side note, if you wanted to field any Brood Brothers unit that wasn't worse Guardsmen, Russ's or Sentinels you still needed the Guard Codex. If this rumour is true, CMS players will need to buy 4 whole new Codexes (if EC end up with a new one) to get access to four units. Not the same thing at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 11:43:05


 
   
Made in gb
Barpharanges







Best to prepare for the worst possible outcomes.

The only thing I can't prepare for will be the people who find ways to try and defend these changes; that level of consumer ghoulishness is a little too much for me.

Thomas Ligotti wrote:"If you do not feel good enough for long enough, you should act as if you do and even think as if you do... So start pretending that you feel good enough for long enough, stop your complaining, and get back in line."

 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 Gert wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
GSC lost Brood Brother units despite them having a kit for it, so it's not like there isn't a precedent, right down to the rule about not losing traits if you include them from another codex.

Brood Brothers were a worse copy-paste of the Guardsman Squad, yes you have to take a full detachment to use them or just use them as Neophytes but it's so not the same thing for units that have been a staple of an army for over like 30 years. And as a side note, if you wanted to field any Brood Brothers unit that wasn't worse Guardsmen, Russ's or Sentinels you still needed the Guard Codex. If this rumour is true, CMS players will need to buy 4 whole new Codexes (if EC end up with a new one) to get access to four units. Not the same thing at all.

And? Plague Marines/Rubrics in the CSM codex are a worse copy-paste of them from their respective Legion codex. The same goes for their new, unique Legion units. It's no different to Brood Brothers in the GSC codex in that you were getting a slightly worse version and had to dip into another codex to get the 'full' Guard experience.

Having yanked the Brood Brothers stuff, GSC are now left with a whopping 1 Heavy Support choice.

I'm not defending it obviously, but I can absolutely believe GW will pull them.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/01/26 12:40:11


 
   
Made in gb
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





Watch Fortress Excalibris

I've said it before, but I am not going to buy five (EDIT: actually four for now, but presumably five next edition once EC have their own codex) codexes just to get the dataslates for all my Black Legion cult units. No BL player with any sense at all is going to do that. Especially given GW's apparent addiction to 3-year edition cycles. Are GW actively trying to make piracy seem like not just a valid option but the only reasonable option?

Assuming the rumour of cult units not being in the main CSM codex anymore is accurate, of course.

EDIT: I'm actually OK with them losing legion traits though, as long as they are good enough units not to need said traits to be viable. Standard fluff for cult units is that they're often mercenaries or otherwise somewhat separate culturally from the legion or warband they're currently fighting with.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 12:11:00


A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

 Duskweaver wrote:
I've said it before, but I am not going to buy five codexes just to get the dataslates for all my Black Legion cult units. No BL player with any sense at all is going to do that. Especially given GW's apparent addiction to 3-year edition cycles. Are GW actively trying to make piracy seem like not just a valid option but the only reasonable option?


For every person that switches to piracy, there's ten shmucks that are simply gonna put up with buying 250$ of Codexes every 3 years or so. So it'd be a huge net profit for them.

"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought




 Arbitrator wrote:
 Gert wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
GSC lost Brood Brother units despite them having a kit for it, so it's not like there isn't a precedent, right down to the rule about not losing traits if you include them from another codex.

Brood Brothers were a worse copy-paste of the Guardsman Squad, yes you have to take a full detachment to use them or just use them as Neophytes but it's so not the same thing for units that have been a staple of an army for over like 30 years. And as a side note, if you wanted to field any Brood Brothers unit that wasn't worse Guardsmen, Russ's or Sentinels you still needed the Guard Codex. If this rumour is true, CMS players will need to buy 4 whole new Codexes (if EC end up with a new one) to get access to four units. Not the same thing at all.

And? Plague Marines/Rubrics in the CSM codex are a worst copy-paste of them from their respective Legion codex. The same goes for their new, unique Legion units. It's no different to Brood Brothers in the GSC codex in that you were getting a slightly worse version and had to dip into another codex to get the 'full' Guard experience.

Having yanked the Brood Brothers stuff, GSC are now left with a whopping 1 Heavy Support choice.

I'm not defend it obviously, but I can absolutely believe GW will pull them.


I agree with this, not saying it's good, or the right thing to do, but it's certainly not entirely removed from their train of thought recently.

On the flip side, if mark of khorne now gives fight twice or +1S and reroll charges or something, then you can just run your zerkers as khornate marines. I'd hope if the cult units get gimped a little then it's compensated elsewhere for god representation.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Gert wrote:
Nah I call BS on the Cult units being removed, and you can't just use "hur dur GW dumb" as reasoning for that being true.

What says fake to me is which cult units are removed. Why would WE getting their own book before EC? Not only EC had been hinted much more heavily in fluff, but GW historically been doing AoS and 40K chaos updates together. What was last AoS update? Slaanesh.

Also, why would chosen get 3 wounds? Not only this steps on toes of the terminators, but stern/vanguard and veteran intercessors, functionally identical to chosen, all have 2 wounds. Unless these units go to 3 wounds too in next SM book - presumably to fix idiotic mistake with giving squats W2 and proliferation of D2 weapons deleting centuries old veterans with laughable ease - though then Tau are ahead of the curve seeing the amount of broken D3+ shooting they have
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Arbitrator wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gert wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:
GSC lost Brood Brother units despite them having a kit for it, so it's not like there isn't a precedent, right down to the rule about not losing traits if you include them from another codex.

Brood Brothers were a worse copy-paste of the Guardsman Squad, yes you have to take a full detachment to use them or just use them as Neophytes but it's so not the same thing for units that have been a staple of an army for over like 30 years. And as a side note, if you wanted to field any Brood Brothers unit that wasn't worse Guardsmen, Russ's or Sentinels you still needed the Guard Codex. If this rumour is true, CMS players will need to buy 4 whole new Codexes (if EC end up with a new one) to get access to four units. Not the same thing at all.

And? Plague Marines/Rubrics in the CSM codex are a worst copy-paste of them from their respective Legion codex. The same goes for their new, unique Legion units. It's no different to Brood Brothers in the GSC codex in that you were getting a slightly worse version and had to dip into another codex to get the 'full' Guard experience.

Having yanked the Brood Brothers stuff, GSC are now left with a whopping 1 Heavy Support choice.

I'm not defend it obviously, but I can absolutely believe GW will pull them.

Right, the "full" Guard experience. So, everything with the <Regiment> keyword, which is 29 datasheets. So, 1 $50 Guard codex gets GSC 29 datasheets that they can use as Brood Brothers. Meanwhile, if this leak is true, CSM players will pay $50 for one Plague Marines datasheet, then another $50 for one Rubric Marines datasheet, and then another $50 for one Berzerkers datasheet. That's a level of insanity that I wouldn't even expect from gw.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 Irbis wrote:
 Gert wrote:
Nah I call BS on the Cult units being removed, and you can't just use "hur dur GW dumb" as reasoning for that being true.

What says fake to me is which cult units are removed. Why would WE getting their own book before EC? Not only EC had been hinted much more heavily in fluff, but GW historically been doing AoS and 40K chaos updates together. What was last AoS update? Slaanesh.

All the rumours from reliable sources have said World Eaters are next, including the chap who's been correct about everything Kill-Team onwards.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Right, the "full" Guard experience. So, everything with the <Regiment> keyword, which is 29 datasheets. So, 1 $50 Guard codex gets GSC 29 datasheets that they can use as Brood Brothers. Meanwhile, if this leak is true, CSM players will pay $50 for one Plague Marines datasheet, then another $50 for one Rubric Marines datasheet, and then another $50 for one Berzerkers datasheet. That's a level of insanity that I wouldn't even expect from gw.

Didn't they pull Storm Troopers from the 6th edition Guard codex so you had to buy the Tempestus Scion codex or am I remembering wrong?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 12:45:45


 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Irbis wrote:

Also, why would chosen get 3 wounds? Not only this steps on toes of the terminators, but stern/vanguard and veteran intercessors, functionally identical to chosen, all have 2 wounds.

Bladeguard have three wounds though.

   
Made in de
Powerful Ushbati






 Duskweaver wrote:
EDIT: I'm actually OK with them losing legion traits though, as long as they are good enough units not to need said traits to be viable. Standard fluff for cult units is that they're often mercenaries or otherwise somewhat separate culturally from the legion or warband they're currently fighting with.


Considering that the current design if for units to have a comparatively basic datasheet that has layers of rules added from several sources to let them unfold their full potential, I doubt you'd actually see cult units be considered viable if they miss out on at least one of those sources.

You may also have to consider if the stratagems from their cult legion codices still apply if you make the cult units Black Legion. Also if these units don't get the full rules from their parent codex, do they still pay the same points? And if they don't, do you want to include their points in a codex that doesn't have rules for them or alternate points in their own codex that have no use unless you use them in a different army?

It's a mess and not likely to result in units that couldn't be done better by generic Chaos Marine units with full special rules support.

Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba




New Jersey, State of Perfection

 Togusa wrote:
This looks hella fake to me, just like all that Eldar stuff about hoods and antennas. 3W Chosen?? The WB and BL army traits don't make any sense and do not resemble anything that is 9th Ed design.

My feeling is most, if not all of this is fake.


Same, mainly because of the total lack of mention about Alpha Legion whatsoever, not even an acknowledgement of them not being in the codex ala World Eaters... almost like the "leaker" completely forgot that they existed when they decided to make this gak up.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
That's a shame. If WE do get spun off into their own codex I imagine it'll be a ways later as well.


Supposed to not be in the first half of the year based the reliable rumors that leaked Black Templars, Custodes, GSC, Tau, and Aeldari details mid/late last year. World Eaters were listed as being "in the works but not on the release schedule yet" or something to that effect. The leakers rumors ended with CSM/Aeldari and then a list of stuff that was farther out. That could mean later this year, next year, or 10 years from now.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
And yet Cultists and Daemon Princes exist in both the TSons and DG books, Chaos Lords are in the DG book and Sorcerers are in the TSons book.
That's already a few shared units. It'd be weird for cult units to also be removed.

The Daemon Princes are "Thousand Sons Daemon Prince" and "Death Guard Daemon Prince" so not really duplicate.
Same with Cultists.
Death Guard have "Death Guard Chaos Lord" so again not a duplicate.
BUT curiously the Sorcerer in the Thousand Sons books is JUST a Sorcerer, which raises some questions - its possible there won't be "Sorcerers" in the new CSM book and they will be called "Malefic Librarian" or something like that.
Presumably they didn't want to put an entry in the CSM book for "Black Legion Rubric Marines" or something.



This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






chaos0xomega wrote:

The Daemon Princes are "Thousand Sons Daemon Prince" and "Death Guard Daemon Prince" so not really duplicate.


Yeah IIRC those units have more substantial changes than just keywords; different special rules, wargear options, saving throw, psychic abilities, etc.

Certainly a much bigger difference than something like Brood Brothers units would have had if they'd been reprinted in another codex.
   
Made in eg
[MOD]
Keeper of the Adeptus Arbites Flame






Cairo, Egypt

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

2: If the datasheets for Berzerkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics are removed, but you can still use them, then you'd need four codexes for the complete rules for the army. Three of which would just be for one unit each. I know we expect gw to grab for cash at every opportunity, but that sounds like a bridge too far.



Of all the things in this thread I find "GW will try to make us spend $200 on more books so we can include 4 units" to be the most believable by far.

 
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot






chaos0xomega wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
That's a shame. If WE do get spun off into their own codex I imagine it'll be a ways later as well.


Supposed to not be in the first half of the year based the reliable rumors that leaked Black Templars, Custodes, GSC, Tau, and Aeldari details mid/late last year. World Eaters were listed as being "in the works but not on the release schedule yet" or something to that effect. The leakers rumors ended with CSM/Aeldari and then a list of stuff that was farther out. That could mean later this year, next year, or 10 years from now.

I was hoping they'd be releasing the Eldar & CSM Codexes around the same time to go with the box set they're releasing. Certainly hope they don't make us wait till late in the year for that 2nd Wound.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Right, the "full" Guard experience. So, everything with the <Regiment> keyword, which is 29 datasheets. So, 1 $50 Guard codex gets GSC 29 datasheets that they can use as Brood Brothers. Meanwhile, if this leak is true, CSM players will pay $50 for one Plague Marines datasheet, then another $50 for one Rubric Marines datasheet, and then another $50 for one Berzerkers datasheet. That's a level of insanity that I wouldn't even expect from gw.

The GSC comparison is...yeah. Unless you want to pretend that there was the full 29 datasheets in the previous codex? They were still buying that book. There was the Sentinel, Brood Brothers Infantry Squad, and Leman Russ...maybe the Heavy Weapon Squad too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arbitrator wrote:

Didn't they pull Storm Troopers from the 6th edition Guard codex so you had to buy the Tempestus Scion codex or am I remembering wrong?

They were not pulled.

Scions weirdly were more numerous in the Guard book than the Scion book. They were taken as Platoons in the Guard book and Squads in the Scions book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 13:54:50


 
   
Made in eg
[MOD]
Keeper of the Adeptus Arbites Flame






Cairo, Egypt

 Arbitrator wrote:

Didn't they pull Storm Troopers from the 6th edition Guard codex so you had to buy the Tempestus Scion codex or am I remembering wrong?


They were SLIGHTLY more subtle than that. They released Codex Tempestus Scions a week or two before Codex Astres Militarium (or however it's spelled, the Guard) so people would assume the new book with the pseudo Latin name was the guard book when in fact it just had 2 units (Scions and Tauroxes). Then codex AM came out with Scions, Taurox and all the other IG units and everyone in Nottingham had a good laugh on their way to bathe in gold coins.

Or so I assume.

 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Gathering the Informations.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Or so I assume.

You would assume wrong.

It was known at the time of release that Tempestus was in addition to the Guard book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 14:01:03


 
   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





 xttz wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:

The Daemon Princes are "Thousand Sons Daemon Prince" and "Death Guard Daemon Prince" so not really duplicate.


Yeah IIRC those units have more substantial changes than just keywords; different special rules, wargear options, saving throw, psychic abilities, etc.

Certainly a much bigger difference than something like Brood Brothers units would have had if they'd been reprinted in another codex.


Yep, they fixed a lot of the "base" Death Guard units - like the Chaos Lord - to actually have Death Guard abilities and such. For example the Death Guard Chaos Lord got bumped to T5 which was a welcome change. Same goes for the DG Chaos Sorcerer Lord in Terminator Armor.
   
Made in us
Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh




For all the wailing about the loadout for Termies- When I bought my box it came with enough Lightning Claws that each of mine could have 2 of them. Granted I only had 1 heavy weapon (a hvy flamer) but that's what I wanted anyway. How did I do this? I bought the Cataphract box. As far as CSM go there are only Terminators so the various armor types are style choices and nothing else. Also, since Catapharact armor was around during the 30K wars it's thematic to have some in your army if you play with that back story.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

So you didn't buy a Chaos Terminator box, and thus think the complaints about weapon load outs in the Chaos Terminator box - again, something you didn't buy - are unfounded?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Germany

"You're not restricted in your loadouts by what came in the box, if you just proxy something diffrent as the unit."

Truly flawless argument.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/26 14:34:13


"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado 
   
 
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