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Surely the ability to not take an option is an option all to itself?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Surely the ability to not take an option is an option all to itself?

SSSHH! Not so loud! If GW hears that not taking an option is an option, they'll realize they can charge us for the options we aren't taking because they're no longer on the sprues or in the codices and do another price hike!

Breton wrote:
Hmm.

Do you not agree starting a dog pile because you don't like what someone says is harassment? Because I do.

if you don't do things the way I think they should be done. A patrol is what 1HQ and 2 Troop minimum for a 500-point game? So, one Chaos Lord and Two CSM kits. So, you bought another CSM kit, now you have enough... oh wait.

Actually its 1 and 1. Still missing my point entirely for some reason.

 Gert wrote:

Breton wrote:
Hmm.

Do you not agree starting a dog pile because you don't like what someone says is harassment? Because I do.

All I see is a bunch of people agreeing with each other that your stance is wrong. That's not dogpiling, that's just consensus.

Add me to that group. CSM in particular seem to have been screwed over more than most with this type of thing - see the Terminator kit for another example of a unit unable to field a full unit with the basic loadout from a single box. It should be the starting point for all kits, especially the basic Troops kit form the faction, that you can field all models from the kit using the basic loadout. The firstborn SM kits for Tacticals, Assault and Sternguard all have this option. They also have a whole host of options on top of that. The devastator kit even has a random lightning claw for the sarge. All the DE Troops can do this too. It really isn't like CSM players are asking for something out of the ordinary here so your insistence that it's all fine is kinda weird. That's especially true when coupled with GW's recent trend of using the sprue itself to define the options for a standard squad.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of boxes for Troops choices where you can't build a squad with just the basic equipment for each trooper, and that's the CSM and the new Ork Boyz. Can't remember on Plague Marines, and CSM Cultists currently only have a sprue repurposed from a board game available, so we'll revisit those once they have a dedicated kit.

As Slipspace said, being able to built your Troops with their basic loadout should be a minimum requirement for such a kit, and has generally been treated as such, which is why it gets called out when it doesn't happen with a newer kit.

H.B.M.C. wrote:They're not that densley packed, especially the part of the sprue with all the shoulder pads. Could've saved a fair bit of room there.

OK, so you should be able to explain how you could fit an extra 10 arms on the sprues without removing anything, then. 3 Bolt pistol arms, 3 chainsword arms, 2 pairs of boltgun arms. Show us where you'd fit them in.

Which is great and all, but we're living in a world where GW re-writes options to only account for one box. Now, to be fair, that hasn't impacted core troops units yet (to my knowledge), but can you imagine if they did? If the squad was limited to only the amount of BP/CS or Bolters on the sprue?

Oh, I can imagine all kinds of things. I do not, however, think it is at all likely that GW are going to change the CSM datasheet to say "only up to 7 models can each replace their boltgun with a chainsword" or "2 models must replace their boltgun with a special/heavy weapon".

The hypothetical prospect of a bad thing perhaps happening in the future is not evidence that something is bad right now.

Emagine that expanded further, with the new Ork Boyz kit, and only letting Ork units take 3 Shootas out of every 10 models? It's that kind of thing we want to avoid, and why full suites of options make this less likely.

Extending your slippery slope further into the realms of phantasy does not make it a stronger argument.

Also, the "new Ork Boyz kit" is a monopose ETB kit akin to the Shadowspear CSM sprue and with a similarly mixed loadout. The "old" kit with all the options is still being sold. Your suggestion would be like GW changing the CSM datasheet to make every squad have a plasma gun and an autocannon because that's what the Shadowspear squad has, and equally unlikely.

It continues to baffle me that there are people out there who genuinely think that fewer options and less customisability is a good thing, the goal, the desired result. Completely mystifying.

Maybe some people think that? Perhaps? I don't think anybody is arguing that position in this thread, though.

More options and customisability are good in general. But the CSM kit is fine as it is, and I would not be willing to pay more to have an extra sprue in the box just to have 10 extra arms to toss into my bits box. And I don't think you could fit those 10 arms on the existing sprues without taking something else out.

Gert wrote:I've taken out some of the more insulting bits of my posts but I don't see how I was being obnoxious considering the point I was making was almost exactly the same as yours Duskweaver.

Well, I didn't call people "muppets", or accuse them of "whining" and "whinging" and "arguing in bad faith". Nor did I characterise multiple people disagreeing with me at the same time as "harassment".

At the end of the day, when I see someone with wrong opinions making bad arguments, I tend to assume they believe what they're saying (even if it seems obviously wrong to me) and that they are trying to engage in good faith and are just making the same sorts of logical errors we all tend to make when we're trying to defend a position we believe in.

You, however, often (not just in this thread) give the impression that you think anyone who disagrees with you is a malevolent troll who doesn't really believe the things they're saying and is using bad arguments deliberately in order to annoy you personally.

I feel like there should be one of those dumb Giancarlo Esposito "we are not the same" memes here...

EDIT: Because fething quote tags.

 Dysartes wrote:
Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of boxes for Troops choices where you can't build a squad with just the basic equipment for each trooper, and that's the CSM and the new Ork Boyz. Can't remember on Plague Marines, and CSM Cultists currently only have a sprue repurposed from a board game available, so we'll revisit those once they have a dedicated kit.

As Slipspace said, being able to built your Troops with their basic loadout should be a minimum requirement for such a kit, and has generally been treated as such, which is why it gets called out when it doesn't happen with a newer kit.

They changed Plague Marines in 9th to only Bolters + 1knife as basic equipment. In 8th it was possible to go two knives or bubonic axes as basic equipment for all, but the kit only gives you 1 Marine with two knives and two other marines with axes, so they changed it to the abomination of a datasheet we have today.

Slipspace wrote:
All I see is a bunch of people agreeing with each other that your stance is wrong. That's not dogpiling, that's just consensus.

Those same people who just ignore half of what I've written to pick out sentences that they can use to support their argument? Or the people who have had posts edited or removed because they can't be civil?

Add me to that group. CSM in particular seem to have been screwed over more than most with this type of thing - see the Terminator kit for another example of a unit unable to field a full unit with the basic loadout from a single box. It should be the starting point for all kits, especially the basic Troops kit form the faction, that you can field all models from the kit using the basic loadout. The firstborn SM kits for Tacticals, Assault and Sternguard all have this option. They also have a whole host of options on top of that. The devastator kit even has a random lightning claw for the sarge. All the DE Troops can do this too. It really isn't like CSM players are asking for something out of the ordinary here so your insistence that it's all fine is kinda weird. That's especially true when coupled with GW's recent trend of using the sprue itself to define the options for a standard squad.

*sigh* Did you actually read what I wrote or are you just ignoring it because it doesn't suit your argument? Are we just going to treat all hypotheticals as reality now?

By my reckoning CSM players will fall into the following categories:
VotLW - This player has been with CSM for ages and is highly likely to have a metric tonne of spare gubbins and bitz with which to customise their models. The fact that the newer kit doesn't have 10 Bolters/Swords/Pistols doesn't bother them because they have these in the hundreds already as spares from other kits.
New Start - This player has just started CSM and likely bought the SC box which comes with the "ETB" kits which are mixed equipment. If they buy a normal CSM kit then they might well just use it to expand upon the models they already have. There is also a high chance that they want to build their models as shown on the box which means using Special/Heavy weapons and the Champion equipment.
Comp Player - I don't even think using the CSM unit crosses their mind when Cultists still exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:

Well, I didn't call people "muppets", or accuse them of "whining" and "whinging" and "arguing in bad faith". Nor did I characterise multiple people disagreeing with me at the same time as "harassment".

The harassment post came after two users posted stuff that has now been removed. Both posts didn't actually have anything to do with the discussion and were just gak posts to be gakheads. As for the accusations of whinging, I feel they are absolutely fine when that is about 60% of what gets posted on Dakka. People post the same things over and over, and much of the time don't actually read replies or choose to misinterpret them to start flame wars. Everyone likes to complain and I'm not saying don't complain, I'm saying that complaining about something for three years is tiresome and childish when there are numerous solutions to said complaint that people just don't bother seeing.

At the end of the day, when I see someone with wrong opinions making bad arguments, I tend to assume they believe what they're saying (even if it seems obviously wrong to me) and that they are trying to engage in good faith and are just making the same sorts of logical errors we all tend to make when we're trying to defend a position we believe in.

You, however, often (not just in this thread) give the impression that you think anyone who disagrees with you is a malevolent troll who doesn't really believe the things they're saying and is using bad arguments deliberately in order to annoy you personally.

Not everyone, in fact, I made sure to message Gad to make it clear I hold no ill will towards them. Arguments get heated sometimes but I don't think I've been engaing in bad faith when people have just flat out ignored what I've written to make me look bad.

 Gert wrote:

especially the basic Troops kit form the faction, that you can field all models from the kit using the basic loadout. The firstborn SM kits for Tacticals, Assault and Sternguard all have this option. They also have a whole host of options on top of that. The devastator kit even has a random lightning claw for the sarge. All the DE Troops can do this too. It really isn't like CSM players are asking for something out of the ordinary here so your insistence that it's all fine is kinda weird. That's especially true when coupled with GW's recent trend of using the sprue itself to define the options for a standard squad.

*sigh* Did you actually read what I wrote or are you just ignoring it because it doesn't suit your argument? Are we just going to treat all hypotheticals as reality now?

By my reckoning CSM players will fall into the following categories:
VotLW - This player has been with CSM for ages and is highly likely to have a metric tonne of spare gubbins and bitz with which to customise their models. The fact that the newer kit doesn't have 10 Bolters/Swords/Pistols doesn't bother them because they have these in the hundreds already as spares from other kits.
New Start - This player has just started CSM and likely bought the SC box which comes with the "ETB" kits which are mixed equipment. If they buy a normal CSM kit then they might well just use it to expand upon the models they already have. There is also a high chance that they want to build their models as shown on the box which means using Special/Heavy weapons and the Champion equipment.
Comp Player - I don't even think using the CSM unit crosses their mind when Cultists still exist.

But then you basically agree with the fact that to have a basic squad you have to resort to older kits which had more bits, which was what the discussion orginally started. I said old vs. new CSM, you said, nah, new CSM are a good kit, not worse than the old one, but now you say: if you mix the new kit with the bits from the old one (and/ or the ETB kit) you get what you want.

The hypothetical person who never buys another unit of CSM or Marine unit for their CSM will have issues.
I would very much like to meet this hypothetical person though because it would sure be an interesting conversation.

 Gert wrote:
The hypothetical person who never buys another unit of CSM or Marine unit for their CSM will have issues.
I would very much like to meet this hypothetical person though because it would sure be an interesting conversation.

As someone that owns about 100 new CSM.... honestly, the kit is at the same time worse and better than the old kit.
Worse because not even 10 of the basic equipment better because they are better models. Worse again because no icons.

 Gert wrote:

*sigh* Did you actually read what I wrote or are you just ignoring it because it doesn't suit your argument? Are we just going to treat all hypotheticals as reality now?

By my reckoning CSM players will fall into the following categories:
VotLW - This player has been with CSM for ages and is highly likely to have a metric tonne of spare gubbins and bitz with which to customise their models. The fact that the newer kit doesn't have 10 Bolters/Swords/Pistols doesn't bother them because they have these in the hundreds already as spares from other kits.
New Start - This player has just started CSM and likely bought the SC box which comes with the "ETB" kits which are mixed equipment. If they buy a normal CSM kit then they might well just use it to expand upon the models they already have. There is also a high chance that they want to build their models as shown on the box which means using Special/Heavy weapons and the Champion equipment.
Comp Player - I don't even think using the CSM unit crosses their mind when Cultists still exist.

That just sounds like 3 completely arbitrary categories you've made up to justify your opinion. What about the experienced player starting CSM as their new army who wants to take advantage of CSM's ability to go all BP/chainsword with their Troops? Or the player who wants to utilise the option for blocks of 20 power armoured warriors? And you still haven't addressed that CSM are almost unique in not having all the basic options available to their most basic Troops option and how that sucks as an approach.

I also don't like the idea that GW should be relying on players having built up a stock of unused bits to justify them cutting down on those in the basic kits. That's especially true when GW themselves have previous for using the contents of the kit as the basis for the unit's restrictions.

 Dysartes wrote:
Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of boxes for Troops choices where you can't build a squad with just the basic equipment for each trooper, and that's the CSM and the new Ork Boyz. Can't remember on Plague Marines, and CSM Cultists currently only have a sprue repurposed from a board game available, so we'll revisit those once they have a dedicated kit.

As Slipspace said, being able to built your Troops with their basic loadout should be a minimum requirement for such a kit, and has generally been treated as such, which is why it gets called out when it doesn't happen with a newer kit.

Flipside:

Guard lost lasgun options for their sergeants and there is zero reason for that to have happened. There's enough lasguns, even in the Cadian and Catachan sets, to have allowed for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slipspace wrote:

That just sounds like 3 completely arbitrary categories you've made up to justify your opinion. What about the experienced player starting CSM as their new army who wants to take advantage of CSM's ability to go all BP/chainsword with their Troops? Or the player who wants to utilise the option for blocks of 20 power armoured warriors? And you still haven't addressed that CSM are almost unique in not having all the basic options available to their most basic Troops option and how that sucks as an approach.

If you're fielding a block of 20 power armoured warriors...you're going to need to buy multiple boxes anyways.

Or maybe they should split Chaos Marines into a "Tactical" and "Assault" version, eh? They could even use the same box so you get 5 and 5!

Y'know, like they actually advertise it as.

I also don't like the idea that GW should be relying on players having built up a stock of unused bits to justify them cutting down on those in the basic kits. That's especially true when GW themselves have previous for using the contents of the kit as the basis for the unit's restrictions.

I also don't like that people pretend so hard now that unused bits cease to exist when there's a limited number of Troop choices for an army...especially when they do stupid nonsense like doubling up the unit size.

Worth mentioning that one of the options that seemingly gets ignored all the time is the Start Collecting, while it's still here.
3 Boltguns and 4 BP+Chainsword and an Autocannon, Plasma Gun, and Aspiring Champion with Plasma+Power Axe as Easy-Builds in there.

Slipspace wrote:The firstborn SM kits for Tacticals, Assault and Sternguard all have this option. They also have a whole host of options on top of that. The devastator kit even has a random lightning claw for the sarge. All the DE Troops can do this too.

You know what all those squad types have in common? They each only have a single basic loadout. It's easy to make sure the Tac Squad kit has 10 bolters, the Assault Squad has 5 bolt pistols and 5 chainswords, the Sternguard has 5 bolters with fancy sniper scopes and the Kabalites have 10 splinter rifles, and still have room on the sprues for special weapons, heavy weapons, purity seals, squad leader weapons and other random gubbinz. But CSMs (and Ork Boyz) have two basic loadouts, which means 20 pairs of arms per squad before you even start adding plasma guns and power fists and extra heads and so on.

The challenge is still open. How would you recut the CSM sprues to fit all those additional arms in there without removing any of the existing options? I maintain that there simply is not enough room for the extra 5 pairs of arms you would need.

Gert wrote:The harassment post came after two users posted stuff that has now been removed. Both posts didn't actually have anything to do with the discussion and were just gak posts to be gakheads.

OK, I did not see the posts you are referencing, but I reckon if people were posting stuff that was bad enough to get their posts deleted here of all places, then calling it harassment is probably fair after all.

As for the accusations of whinging, I feel they are absolutely fine when that is about 60% of what gets posted on Dakka.

I don't think it's ever "fine" to try to dismiss other people's complaints as "whinging and whining". People get pissed about things. What seems trivial and unimportant to you might not be so to them. People like to vent.

Telling someone who is upset or worried about something that they can't really be upset and that they're actually just whining for the sake of it... don't you think that's a bit obnoxious?

People post the same things over and over, and much of the time don't actually read replies or choose to misinterpret them to start flame wars.

Of course people misinterpret things. But I think people doing that deliberately in order to start a flame war is pretty rare. And if you really think someone is doing that, wouldn't it be better to click the little yellow triangle rather than reply with passive-aggressive sarcasm and insults? If they really are just trolling, then surely snarling at them that they're a childish whinging whiner is exactly the reaction they're aiming to get out of you? There's an old saying about never wrestling with a pig.

Everyone likes to complain and I'm not saying don't complain, I'm saying that complaining about something for three years is tiresome and childish when there are numerous solutions to said complaint that people just don't bother seeing.

You can point people to the solutions without calling them "tiresome and childish". It's up to them how they respond to that, but at the end of the day it's better to just shrug and let people vent than start insulting them just because you're frustrated they aren't listening.

Not everyone, in fact, I made sure to message Gad to make it clear I hold no ill will towards them.

Fair enough.

Arguments get heated sometimes but I don't think I've been engaing in bad faith when people have just flat out ignored what I've written to make me look bad.

I understand the frustration. People do tend to ignore the stronger parts of other people's arguments and focus on attacking the weaker ones. That's just human nature. There doesn't seem to be a lot of point in getting annoyed about it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Flipside:

Guard lost lasgun options for their sergeants and there is zero reason for that to have happened. There's enough lasguns, even in the Cadian and Catachan sets, to have allowed for it.

Fully agree that one is annoying - would've taken one additional arm piece on the Cadian sprue to resolve it, as I reckon the only reason it ain't allowed is that none of the lasgun arms feature a sergeant's stripes in there - give an alternate left arm (I think it is) for one of the lasgun sets with chevrons? Bob's your mother's brother. Could've even slotted it into the recent upgrade sprue...

Bit of a daft restriction anyway, though. Catachancs are a little tricker, as they don't have the Sergeant's strips to make them stand out - would need a different solution, but I'm not sure what.

 Duskweaver wrote:

OK, so you should be able to explain how you could fit an extra 10 arms on the sprues without removing anything, then. 3 Bolt pistol arms, 3 chainsword arms, 2 pairs of boltgun arms. Show us where you'd fit them in.

I think the boltgun arms are doable, especially if they're structured like the ones which can swap the special weapons in (so three pieces rather than two) - you get more flex to slot pieces in around other ones.

Comparing the sprues to the Necron Warrior sprue, I think you could save more space by using odder angles for your flow channels - there seems to be chunks of spare space due to almost everything being horizontal or vertical, with few diagonals. Exploting that would need a full rework of the layout, though. The backpack sprue, for example, would benefit quite a bit there.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Flipside:

Guard lost lasgun options for their sergeants and there is zero reason for that to have happened. There's enough lasguns, even in the Cadian and Catachan sets, to have allowed for it.

Fully agree that one is annoying - would've taken one additional arm piece on the Cadian sprue to resolve it, as I reckon the only reason it ain't allowed is that none of the lasgun arms feature a sergeant's stripes in there - give an alternate left arm (I think it is) for one of the lasgun sets with chevrons? Bob's your mother's brother. Could've even slotted it into the recent upgrade sprue...

You don't need an arm for it. There's literally a loose lasgun right there. It has been part of the kit since day one.

Bit of a daft restriction anyway, though. Catachans are a little tricker, as they don't have the Sergeant's strips to make them stand out - would need a different solution, but I'm not sure what.

There's no solution necessary outside of removing the sergeant chevrons from things. The Cadian artwork had the chevrons on the armor plates over the years, not cloth. Dunno why they did it on the cloth rather than having it as a transfer.

The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all

 alextroy wrote:
The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all

You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?

 Dysartes wrote:
Off the top of my head, I can only think of a couple of boxes for Troops choices where you can't build a squad with just the basic equipment for each trooper, and that's the CSM and the new Ork Boyz. Can't remember on Plague Marines, and CSM Cultists currently only have a sprue repurposed from a board game available, so we'll revisit those once they have a dedicated kit.

Also the Ork Lootas kit. You couldn't build 5 Lootas from it without conversion, as one could be a Mek. 3 guesses what GW did in the current book...

...Lootas are a Troops choice, Grim?

 Dysartes wrote:
...Lootas are a Troops choice, Grim?

Me fail English? That's unpossible.

 Gert wrote:

By my reckoning CSM players will fall into the following categories:
VotLW - This player has been with CSM for ages and is highly likely to have a metric tonne of spare gubbins and bitz with which to customise their models. The fact that the newer kit doesn't have 10 Bolters/Swords/Pistols doesn't bother them because they have these in the hundreds already as spares from other kits.

Explain to me, a vet player who does have both an immense bitz box & a CSM force, why I shouldn't still view it as stupid to make a kit that doesn't contain enough parts to make the basic listed loadout for a squad.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all

You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?

Yes, which is what the pointing hand allows. Model is either pistol (or the ranged weapon) and pointing hand or pistol (or the ranged weapon) with either Chainsword or Powersword.

Why? Because the Sergeant Chevrons are on the pointing arm, chainsword arm, and powersword arm.

Is it silly? Yes. But it is the kit and GW rules tend to conform to the kit.

 alextroy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all

You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?

Yes, which is what the pointing hand allows. Model is either pistol (or the ranged weapon) and pointing hand or pistol (or the ranged weapon) with either Chainsword or Powersword.

Why? Because the Sergeant Chevrons are on the pointing arm, chainsword arm, and powersword arm.

You are SO CLOSE TO GETTING IT!

If he comes standard with the Laspistol...then what did he not have until this new sprue was added?

Is it silly? Yes. But it is the kit and GW rules tend to conform to the kit.

It's not conforming though. You get 2x Chainswords and Laspistols per kit, from the outset of the Cadian Shock Troop kit.

You don't get 2 Sergeants per squad. You also cannot take 5 man Infantry, Veteran, or Conscript Squads(who don't get a Sergeant anyways).

I'd swing both ways because on the one hand I love kits like the Kabalites with opportunities for kitbashing, but why must I spend £55 for two Carnifexes with options when all I desire is a single Screamer Killer?

 Gert wrote:

Do you not agree starting a dog pile because you don't like what someone says is harassment? Because I do.

no I think saying you took out the snarky mean comments from your post then saying you don't understand why you're being treated this way is... entertaining.

Even more so when I realize you snipped that very point to try and paint yourself as a victim again.

I've taken out some of the more insulting bits of my posts but I don't see how I was being obnoxious

if you don't do things the way I think they should be done. A patrol is what 1HQ and 2 Troop minimum for a 500-point game? So, one Chaos Lord and Two CSM kits. So, you bought another CSM kit, now you have enough... oh wait.

Actually its 1 and 1. Still missing my point entirely for some reason.

No, we're all getting your point. The only way you approve of playing/collecting/etc. the game is the way you think it should be played/collected/etc. You're the one being dense as a dwarf star as multitudes of people point out your way isn't the only way and doesn't work for everyone. Like a 200-point Patrol with one Chaos Lord and 10 Chaos Space Marines all with bolt pistols and chainswords. Did you get it this time? There will be some number of people out there who don't buy those extra kits, and/or can't afford to buy 10 kits at once to have the bits on hand? As such the kit should make all (and/or half for the kits that only provide half the bodies) the legal options for the datasheet


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

By my reckoning CSM players will fall into the following categories:

See: Only the ways you believe it should happen.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all

You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?

Yes, which is what the pointing hand allows. Model is either pistol (or the ranged weapon) and pointing hand or pistol (or the ranged weapon) with either Chainsword or Powersword.

Why? Because the Sergeant Chevrons are on the pointing arm, chainsword arm, and powersword arm.

You are SO CLOSE TO GETTING IT!

If he comes standard with the Laspistol...then what did he not have until this new sprue was added?

Is it silly? Yes. But it is the kit and GW rules tend to conform to the kit.

It's not conforming though. You get 2x Chainswords and Laspistols per kit, from the outset of the Cadian Shock Troop kit.

You don't get 2 Sergeants per squad. You also cannot take 5 man Infantry, Veteran, or Conscript Squads(who don't get a Sergeant anyways).

And your point is?

The kit, before he upgrade sprue, was two 5 model sets that included enough bits for a sergeant, a grenade launcher, a flamer, a voxcaster, and 5 lasguns. So more options than you can field, especially when they give you have the upgrades twice. Did anyone care they couldn't make a laspistol only sergeant with the kit? I sincerely doubt it.

The big thing is you now can literally build every legal option, except the heavy weapons team, from the new Cadian Shock Troops box. That's pretty good compared to many other kits that lack something or other if not multiple somethings.

 alextroy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all

You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?

Yes, which is what the pointing hand allows. Model is either pistol (or the ranged weapon) and pointing hand or pistol (or the ranged weapon) with either Chainsword or Powersword.

Why? Because the Sergeant Chevrons are on the pointing arm, chainsword arm, and powersword arm.

You are SO CLOSE TO GETTING IT!

If he comes standard with the Laspistol...then what did he not have until this new sprue was added?

Is it silly? Yes. But it is the kit and GW rules tend to conform to the kit.

It's not conforming though. You get 2x Chainswords and Laspistols per kit, from the outset of the Cadian Shock Troop kit.

You don't get 2 Sergeants per squad. You also cannot take 5 man Infantry, Veteran, or Conscript Squads(who don't get a Sergeant anyways).

And your point is?

The kit, before he upgrade sprue, was two 5 model sets that included enough bits for a sergeant, a grenade launcher, a flamer, a voxcaster, and 5 lasguns. So more options than you can field, especially when they give you have the upgrades twice. Did anyone care they couldn't make a laspistol only sergeant with the kit? I sincerely doubt it.

The big thing is you now can literally build every legal option, except the heavy weapons team, from the new Cadian Shock Troops box. That's pretty good compared to many other kits that lack something or other if not multiple somethings.

You claimed that the whole reason why there was no lasgun option for the Sergeant is that there was no Sergeant stripes "in the kit" on a lasgun arm. That "the upgrade sprue" solves all of this anyways, because of the sergeant stripes.

How the heck are you going to justify rules laid down three iterations of a codex ago(lasguns were removed as an option with Cruddace's first book) with a sprue barely half of a year old?

That's my point. The "laspistol only" bit came with the 8E book.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Spoiler:

 alextroy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
The loose lasgun doesn't remove the fact that the Chevrons are on the left arm, either pointing, Chainsword, or Powersword. So no lasgun for he Seargent. Don't want to allow him to have all three at once after all

You know that he doesn't come with a Chainsword as standard, right?

Yes, which is what the pointing hand allows. Model is either pistol (or the ranged weapon) and pointing hand or pistol (or the ranged weapon) with either Chainsword or Powersword.

Why? Because the Sergeant Chevrons are on the pointing arm, chainsword arm, and powersword arm.

You are SO CLOSE TO GETTING IT!

If he comes standard with the Laspistol...then what did he not have until this new sprue was added?

Is it silly? Yes. But it is the kit and GW rules tend to conform to the kit.

It's not conforming though. You get 2x Chainswords and Laspistols per kit, from the outset of the Cadian Shock Troop kit.

You don't get 2 Sergeants per squad. You also cannot take 5 man Infantry, Veteran, or Conscript Squads(who don't get a Sergeant anyways).

And your point is?

The kit, before he upgrade sprue, was two 5 model sets that included enough bits for a sergeant, a grenade launcher, a flamer, a voxcaster, and 5 lasguns. So more options than you can field, especially when they give you have the upgrades twice. Did anyone care they couldn't make a laspistol only sergeant with the kit? I sincerely doubt it.

The big thing is you now can literally build every legal option, except the heavy weapons team, from the new Cadian Shock Troops box. That's pretty good compared to many other kits that lack something or other if not multiple somethings.

You claimed that the whole reason why there was no lasgun option for the Sergeant is that there was no Sergeant stripes "in the kit" on a lasgun arm. That "the upgrade sprue" solves all of this anyways, because of the sergeant stripes.

How the heck are you going to justify rules laid down three iterations of a codex ago(lasguns were removed as an option with Cruddace's first book) with a sprue barely half of a year old?

That's my point. The "laspistol only" bit came with the 8E book.

Thank you for your answer.

I'm speaking only to the 8th and 9th editions rules. I know the no lasgun rule is from earlier, but the current weapons options are from the 8th Edition Codex. I honestly never noticed the Sgt went from Laspistol and Chainsword in the Index to Laspistol with optional Chainsword in the Codex. I wonder if it has something to do with one of the old metal models still available at the time? Who knows :shrug:

Personally, I'm pleased that GW fixed the Cadian Shock Troops Kit to actually allow for all the options the unit has for the first time in forever. You can't ask for more than a kit that actually allows all the unit's options without being a totally bloated mess of bits.

OK, we could have asked for a new Cadian kit that did that all with more dynamic and better proportioned models

 alextroy wrote:

Thank you for your answer.

I'm speaking only to the 8th and 9th editions rules. I know the no lasgun rule is from earlier, but the current weapons options are from the 8th Edition Codex. I honestly never noticed the Sgt went from Laspistol and Chainsword in the Index to Laspistol with optional Chainsword in the Codex. I wonder if it has something to do with one of the old metal models still available at the time? Who knows :shrug:

It had nothing to do with anything in all likelihood, same as the "no lasgun" parts. Cruddace is one of those folks who seems to be of the belief that Guard can't be competent so the loadouts seem to reflect that.

Best guess is that someone screwed up copy/pasting profiles, again. The Cruddace book had a big issue with find+replace screwups relating to the hellguns are really hotshot lasgun garbage.

Personally, I'm pleased that GW fixed the Cadian Shock Troops Kit to actually allow for all the options the unit has for the first time in forever. You can't ask for more than a kit that actually allows all the unit's options without being a totally bloated mess of bits.

They didn't. There's still no Heavy Weapon Team.

OK, we could have asked for a new Cadian kit that did that all with more dynamic and better proportioned models

There's one coming, by all reliable accounts.