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No bonus CP for Abaddon or Huron.

No requirement to pay for a WL trait, though. They can be warlord without it.

I liked the additional CP for Red Corsairs when you took CSM.

I am really liking putting relics on our non-characters. Our aspiring champions have around 4 attacks usually and putting a relic sword or relic mace like black mace on even a legionaire champion instantly makes him a scary model in close combat. It suddenly makes even a 5 man legionaire unit scary if you get charged by it. And there are many good weapon relics you can put on champions.

Its also a good way to increase the lethality of a unit without having to spend more points on it. Like a 5 man raptor unit ... hmm, doesn't look so threatening. Give the champion in that unit a blade of the relentless and now, suddenly, its a unit that can mulch through a lot of stuff. And players who do not give such units enough respect will be surprised when it does get the charge in and does big damage.


Also... just throwing out something out here to flip things on its head. Have you guys tried making lists without Abaddon in it? It frees up 300 points! That's a lot! Plus Abaddon locks you into a certain sort of playstyle (if you are trying to make best use out of him). You are pretty much designing a significant part of your list around trying to get Abaddon into combat. It opens up the list building even more of you try designing a list without Abaddon.

Like I wouldn't be sure I want to put in a Daemon Prince if I am already running Abaddon unless I am playing herohammer because that's 500 points for just two characters already. But leaving out Abaddon, I would certainly strongly consider a flying DP and now I have more points left to put into other flying infantry units like warp talons or raptors. Now I have a jump pack wing that can swoop up one flank and apply strong pressure very quickly.

Abaddon also forces me into the "walk up the middle of the board with a tanky force with Abaddon in it" style of play because that feels like the strongest way for me to use him. Its the Deathguard playstyle of 10 blightlords with characters blob marching up the middle. But leaving Abaddon out opens different playstyles. Not to say I will ignore the middle. But I don't have to necessarily go all in with a tanky infantry marching blob up the middle. A more cagey, tactical kind of playstyle is possible without Abaddon.

Also, as an add on. Let's take 10 chaos terminators as a typical escorting force for Abaddon. Now actually, all by themselves, 10 chaos terminators are scary enough any player will give them lots of healthy respect. Because they have so many attacks (with accursed weapons) and yet they are tanky. Having abaddon is almost literally overkill. There are probably only a very limited number of things a unit 10 terminators cannot handle in melee where you then need Abaddon to step in to help.

Now don't get me wrong. Abaddon is amazing, I am not saying he isn't. Just throwing this out for discussion.

I think you’re right. I also play Eldar and I just use superior mobility to avoid dangerous melee threats for turn 1 and 2 while shooting the crap out of all the other units and then by the end of turn 2 the opponent concedes because they can’t possibly survive and win through turn 5. So yeah abaddon is awesome but he is a huge points sink and forces you to have a blob of stuff. Easy to avoid

warpedpig wrote:
I think you’re right. I also play Eldar and I just use superior mobility to avoid dangerous melee threats for turn 1 and 2 while shooting the crap out of all the other units and then by the end of turn 2 the opponent concedes because they can’t possibly survive and win through turn 5. So yeah abaddon is awesome but he is a huge points sink and forces you to have a blob of stuff. Easy to avoid

Exactly this. The best solution to Abaddon in a tanky unit is to just avoid that force. And some armies can do that.

My honest answer to this codex has been to invest in Horus Heresy 2.0. I'm not going to try and rebuild two shattered legions. I'll just migrate to a game that actually lets you have a choice in unit construction. Maybe 10th will be good. Until then, CSM will fill in on heresy armies or stay on the shelf.

How do You rate Noctilith Crown?

Growing 4++ aura vs shooting, has some deffensive shooting.
Can protect your "mortal" units which do not have inv (legionares, havocs, bikers, raptors, vehicles) can increase inv for Possesed, Terminators, characters, daemonengines.

 Xyxel wrote:
How do You rate Noctilith Crown?

Growing 4++ aura vs shooting, has some deffensive shooting.
Can protect your "mortal" units which do not have inv (legionares, havocs, bikers, raptors, vehicles) can increase inv for Possesed, Terminators, characters, daemonengines.

A Priest always seemed like a better deal than a Crown for that tasty invuln. But now that you can do a psychic action that yields cp or swap a priest prayers I´m really tempted to use one. Before it was either this or that.
Having a portal to hell on the table is pretty awesome and always makes great narratives I wish it would boost summoning but we can´t have that obviously

 Xyxel wrote:
How do You rate Noctilith Crown?

Growing 4++ aura vs shooting, has some deffensive shooting.
Can protect your "mortal" units which do not have inv (legionares, havocs, bikers, raptors, vehicles) can increase inv for Possesed, Terminators, characters, daemonengines.

With armor of contempt now, Invul is not quite as crucial as it once was. I would want to try it if I wanted to run lots of cultists. They benefit the most from the 4++ aura. A blob of 20 cultists with a 4++ would be extremely irritating to kill.

So had my first game with new book. Black Leigion v. Orks. Here are some unit highlights....

Lord Disco - I gave him the Undivided Daemon Weapon and the half damage WL trait. The WL trait i found not as necessary as you can CP for -1 damage for him, and he now has look out sir so he wasn't in danger all that often. He did the business in CC, I took the auto cannon as that is what mine is modeled with, which was lack luster. Defiantly take the flamer if you have it. This guy is probably a must take if your are not running a daemon prince. Next time I am taking him with flames of spite with the Daemon Weapon for maximum MW output.

Master of Possession - As I think everyone knows on the internet this guys is a must include in every chaos list. The Malefic discipline is so damn good, maybe the best set of powers in the game. The fact that he can heal + resurrect not just daemonkin, but Core makes him so good. And the spell has 18 inch range. The other spells are good especially the +1T on terminators. Seriously, go on ebay and get this guy.

Terminators - I ran them as a big brick of 10 with mark of Tz and the -1 to wound relic on the champ. Against Orks they were basically unkilliable. In fact I think he killed two the whole game, one from an explosion. I am looking to see what happens against armies with better shooting. I did start them on the table, which I think is the way to go with the big brick. Dominate the middle. Next time I am going to run a priest with them for the shooting transhuman buff.

Chosen - I love them. The extra wound makes a huge difference to their staying power. There are so many D2 weapons in the game, making them inefficient with the extra wound is big. Also they hit like a truck. And have the advantage of being able to be put in a rhino.

Oblits - They are as you would expect from their data sheet. However, I did feel a bit underwhelmed by their AT shooting as if they are not buffed or you roll low on number of shots it really hurts them (and I think AT is where our book will have a bit of a struggle barring really nich vehicle lists)

Venomcrawlers - much better than before, getting them into combat is the way to go. However their shooting is still pretty mediocre.

I also ran some legionnaires, cultists, waptalons and noise marines. All were decent, but against the orks I don't know if I got a real picture of what they can do (except cultists which is die).

Black Leigon Trait - It was pretty clutch most of the game. Hitting on 2's on the charge or against the closest model was good. I keep track of it and it did make a real difference to the number of hits. The morale thing did not come up. Also the strat where you can put a unit into another legion trait (i.e.i Red Corsairs) is so good. I am switching to Word Bears for my next game as my list is heavy on CC, and so I think their re-roll hits will be better than the +1 only on a charge, and the 5++ against mortal wounds is always good, since you know, everyone and their mother can do mortal wounds now.

Also personally I find every list I build burning 4 or 5 CP for WL Traits and especially relics. There are so many good ones.

I don't think I will ever build a list that doesn't have Lord Disco or Daemon Prince, Master of Possession, at least 5 terminators with the -1 wound relic and mark of Tzeentch, and Chosen. In fact the -1 to wound relic is probably in every list all the time as it would be good to protect characters, or chosen, or some other large important unit.

What was your wargear setup for the Terminators and Chosen?

Also is Pact of Flesh really heal d3 + revive a model if the chosen unit is core/daemonkin? If so that seems insanely good, like going to get nerfed good.

 l0k1 wrote:
What was your wargear setup for the Terminators and Chosen?

Also is Pact of Flesh really heal d3 + revive a model if the chosen unit is core/daemonkin? If so that seems insanely good, like going to get nerfed good.

The real nerf-fodder is the fact you can resurrect an Obliterator, when GW came out and explicitly stopped space marines from rezzing the go-carts. Healing on top of that is just icing on the cake IMO.

That said, someone made a comment somewhere about "Chaos being the test bed for space marines 2.0", and maybe this is one of the "previews of things to come"?

 l0k1 wrote:
What was your wargear setup for the Terminators and Chosen?

Also is Pact of Flesh really heal d3 + revive a model if the chosen unit is core/daemonkin? If so that seems insanely good, like going to get nerfed good.

Chosen are just straight up bad compared to Terminators. The gimmick to be in all Doctrines at once doesn’t make up for all the better benefits Terminators have.

 l0k1 wrote:
What was your wargear setup for the Terminators and Chosen?

Also is Pact of Flesh really heal d3 + revive a model if the chosen unit is core/daemonkin? If so that seems insanely good, like going to get nerfed good.

Terminators was all accused weapons and bolters. Weight of dice is a thing with 40 attacks. Also they had -1 to wound relic and tzeentch.

Chosen also just accused weapons and bolsters. Next time I am going to put the relic sword on champ.

I like the chosen because they can go in a rhino. Gets them up the field. Also they are 8 points cheaper then terminators. I wouldn’t bring two ten man terminators due to cost but one and one works well.

Yes the spell says heal d3 and resurrection. Like I said so good with 18 inch range

The latest July FAQ is kind of a big buff for us. I mean, our armies are more focused toward Melee. And now, we get +1 inch charging through obscure terrain type ruins (which is quite standard these days). We also get a 2 inch engagement range if we are fighting over such terrain. Its kind of huge. It also makes charging a unit out of deep strike within such terrain easier because now we only need a 8 inch charge instead of a 9 inch charge. .

World Eaters must be in seventh heaven right now. But even excluding them, the rest of the legions all get a pretty big buff. Anything we deep strike in gets a 8 inch charge into units within such terrain. Obliterator, terminators, raptors, warp talons ...

Its also a buff to Abaddon. He gives Core +1 to charge rolls. Anything core coming in from deep strike with him has a 7 inch charge into obscuring ruins. Also, if you march him up the board with a tanky unit. That unit is now far more dangerous because it can get a 7 inch charge and engage with units behind obscuring terrain. This makes such a brick unit much more dangerous in the center now. Previously, because of the positioning people did, such a unit had to make a very long charge circling around the walls of such terrain. No longer will this be true. Such a unit in the middle would now be extremely lethal.

Turn 1, if your opponent puts a cheap sacrificial unit on the mid point, you get the charge in with Abby giving +1 and delete it and consolidate forward. Turn 1 end, its well in the center of the board. Turn 2, it will be charging your opponent's back objective of his castle within obscuring ruins. If it deletes the unit it charges and consolidates. It can be within his deployment zone by turn 2!

Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought

 xeen wrote:
Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought

I didn't think of this. Its a cool neat trick!

 xeen wrote:
Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought

Psychic Phase comes before the Shooting Phase, not after.

 MinMax wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought

Psychic Phase comes before the Shooting Phase, not after.

Red Corsairs can do it though with Dark Raider WLT

 MinMax wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought

Psychic Phase comes before the Shooting Phase, not after.

Crap. Forgot that. So warp time really is all that useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also are people deep striking their Oblits? I find that they need to be supported to be good, and so dropping them in the backfield is kind of a waste. Also deep striking means you miss out on Wanton Destruction.

I can see using warptime on those obliterators T1 to get them into better shooting positions, then they can move on their own after that. Alternatively, warptime can go on a big block of terminators T1 so you can better position to contest midfield, or even T2 if they're defensive and Slaanesh so you don't necessarily care that much about getting the charge. Lastly, warptime can also get units onto objectives later in the game. So I still think warptime is really useful as a positioning tool, even if you're not going to be able to use it to get super-long charges anymore.

 xeen wrote:

 MinMax wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Anyone think of this. Put havocs behind obscuring terrain. Move out and shoot. Warp time back behind obscuring. Fire and fade for chaos. Just a thought

Psychic Phase comes before the Shooting Phase, not after.

Crap. Forgot that. So warp time really is all that useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also are people deep striking their Oblits? I find that they need to be supported to be good, and so dropping them in the backfield is kind of a waste. Also deep striking means you miss out on Wanton Destruction.

The problem is ... I honestly can't find anything that can buff Obliterators unless you are playing Iron Warriors legion. They are not core, so most auras, command buffs, strategems all don't work on them. So, actually, they are perfectly fine without support. The only kind of support that can be provided to them would be more of in boosting their durability or rezzing a model using the strategems that affect daemonkin or the Malefic disipline. The problem though, is I don't think Obliterators need to be buffed with our defensive buffs. If they are in cover, they have a 0+ save with armor of contempt and cover save. They don't need anything else really. And nothing improves their shooting either. So, actually, they are the perfect unit that can independently act without support.

Messing around on Battlescribe. You can do a unit of Terminators with MoT, and then use the Trophies Strat to give them the Rune. Whole square is -1 to wound and the first wound going through just gets negated. Probably the most durable unit with that combo I think?

If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.

 p5freak wrote:
If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.

Yup. There are many ways to make a tough tanky Terminator unit for CSM now. Increasingly though, I feel that Abaddon doesn't really have a place in such a force and is better off elsewhere. Like, A big brick of 10 terminators backed up by whether a MOP plus a Dark Apostle (to give the Transhit) is already a force that is close to 600 points, and honestly, how many units would dare to go near such a force or fight it head on? Abaddon is overkill if added to such a force. Its better for Abaddon to be elsewhere applying pressure. The issue is ... what would be a good accompanying force to Abaddon without making the whole shebang too much of a point sink such that a good opponent will just avoid that force and focus his efforts on another objective instead.

 p5freak wrote:
If you want a tough termi unit you pick AL (-1 to hit at 12"+), give them MoN (S equal T is -1 to wound, S double T is also -1 to wound), play the stratagem grandfathers blessings on them for transhuman, mutaded invigoration gives them T5, feculent beseechment gives them T6, black rune of damnation is also -1 to wound. Benediction of darkness gives them light cover. And illusory supplication is transhuman for hitting them, and no rerolls.

You now have a unit which has T6, saves on 2+, which cannot be hit on less than 4+, cannot be wounded better than 4+, S5 and less strength only wounds them on 6s, they ignore AP-2 with AoC, and light cover. They negate +1 to wound. And if a model dies, or gets wounded, you heal it with pact of flesh, and return a killed model.

Thats a tough unit.

This is fairly CP hungry however - at 2 CP alone for the Black Rune. The unit still is obscenely tough.

Was looking at a rather nice combo with a Dark Apostle - take Exalted Possession, Ul'ro'cca and Omen of Potency and you have a 9 attacks at S7 AP-3 D2, with each wound causing an automatic MW which isn't bad for 95pts. If you can get Soultearer Portent off then he'll be wounding MEQ on 2+ as well.

Probably not the best combo in the book but I doubt you can get better for his points.

Hi everyone, quick question. I wanna build a 500 points EC patrol, any tips on what to put in there? Thanks!

Hi all. Had my 2nd game with my new World Eaters last night. First game, smashed the living daylights out of T'au..last night got pummeled by Necrons.
A few observations echoing previous points.
A) Abaddon cuts through enemy units with easy, almost making his 9 terminator mates redundant.
B) against someone who screens well, Abaddon and his mates are a absolutely huge investment that is somewhat left sitting in a corner of a battlefield saying 'ok, killed the enemy, now what can I do?'
C) Berserkers still die to decent overwatch, we could do with some help shutting that down as World Eater faction
D) dread claw drop pod is worth taking in my opinion, it's served me well twice and possibly worth adding another and dumping my Rhino for it
E) Obliterators aren't living up to their stats on paper, I'm not finding them actually achieving much at all

If you guys had a melee army, would you double-down on melee after getting smashed, or try and add some heavy shooting? A Knight instead of Abaddon for mobility?

LeRufus wrote:
Hi everyone, quick question. I wanna build a 500 points EC patrol, any tips on what to put in there? Thanks!

In my meta I went with a Sorceror in Termie Armor (combi-melta & Force Stave precience), MIn unit of Noise Marines (4x Sonic Blaster, Doom Siren on Champ, 1 Blast master) and, a 5 man Termie squad (Champ has chainfist, Hvy Flame 4x Combi-bolt, 4x Accursed Weapon). That's about all that you can squeeze into 500 points.