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Aight, let's talk about one of the significant ways in which the 40k setting is actually INCLUSIVE  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Kya_Vess wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Kya_Vess wrote:
. . . . So far the worst I get is just some weirdo telling me how my army plays, completely unaware he's about to be tabled. That or people who get hilariously tilted or try and cheat. Grr the cheaters... those are the ones we should really talk about.

Hehe, oh come now. . . Those are like some of my favorite experiences

I haven't seen a really tilted player in a while, but I can recall getting someone to start throwing dice.

I still see "soft cheating" fairly often, unfortunately. "Long moves" seem shockingly common.



The one thing I've noticed is that I get a lot worse then some of the other players is people assume they can cheat against me because I wont know any better. There's been a few tournaments were it was so blatant even the people next to these games were correcting my opponent. This was a huge issue in Magic too. Basically my options are getting cheated or trying to be a rules lawyer and being seen as, "that b1#$#" in the store. It's obnoxious.
Oh geez. Well that's gak to hear.

If it's any help at all I know which option my (awesome)wife would choose. She'd be calling it out no-nonsense style. The calculation is that some unpleasant individuals may resent you for it. But on the upside is that A: hopefully the behavior ceases or at least lessens, and B: the more quality people respect you more for it.

My sympathies, regardless.

. . .
Actually I just asked my wife, and she said "who the f*** cares if someone thinks you're a b****!". So there's a non-male take, haha.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






Should we really be looking for good qualities in a universe specifically designed to be completely horrible (“grimdark”) and a satire of all the horribleness in the real world in the first place?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 21:18:16


Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Should we really be looking for good qualities in a universe specifically designed to be completely horrible (“grimdark”) and a satire of all the horribleness in the real world in the first place?


The topic is about 40k being inclusive, not is it morally correct.


 
   
Made in gb
Never Forget Isstvan!






Spoiler:
Karol wrote:
Spanish. have you heard about the Condor legion.

The Spanish Civil War didn't start until 1936, at which point Germany sent the Condor Legion. So no, not the 1920s.


The German-Chinese cooperation was a thing from 1926 to 1943, till the goverment left mainliand China.

Ended in 1941 when the Japanese invaded China and only existed as a continuation of policy from the Weimar Republic because the Nazis needed raw material for its armed forces.


And Ukrainians worked with the Prussians, then Germans against Austrians, Austro Hungarians, Russians for 300+ years. Even the ribbentrop molotov packt had an addum about what the Abwehra controled ukrainian groups are suppose to do, or rather what they are suppose not to do aka not start acting in territories that were suppose to be soviets. But they kind of a didn't listen.

Germans and Nazis aren't the same things, stop equating the two.


Hitler claimed that the civilisation of China is better and higher, then that germans created, specialy as they were older then those of germans.

Hitler said it in 1936 when the Nazis were still trading with the Chinese therefore it can be chalked up to diplomatic posturing. As soon as China stopped being friends they cut ties and put any Chinese or Chinese-Germans they could find into labour camps.


Odd because in 1916 the German occupation army as the first thing it did, was to keep up Tsarist ban on polish schools, use of polish language etc. And Poles in Podlasie were no friends of Russians. Specialy post 1912 and the creation of Kholm Guberny.

And the Nazis recruited hundreds of thousands into the SS and Wehrmacht from Eastern Europe to fight the Soviets. They still didn't regard them as equals in their ideology.


Okey, while I could disagree with some of this. what does it have to do with how the imperial societies and laws work? Because an ork can bend in to a pretzel and he will never be able to be part of the human imperial society. the whole aryan thing was too esoteric to considered serious.

You said the Nazis were inclusive. You were wrong. The Nazis had three classes of humans, the pure Aryans, the servants (literally everyone else), and the "subhuman".
As for the Imperium, there are many minor Xenos races living within the Imperium as "protectorates", the Imperium has cooperated and even set up trade agreements with the T'au, and Ork mercenaries are routinely hired by the Imperium. But like the Nazis, every single one of these is considered inferior to the primary race.


Joing HJ and BDM was obligatory, but if the racial element was so crucial . The state wouldn't allow children from Kamerun or China to join the organisations.

You're going to need to provide a source for that claim my guy because I have never seen that.

The long and short is you don't know half as much as you think you do Karol.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 21:44:12


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Should we really be looking for good qualities in a universe specifically designed to be completely horrible (“grimdark”) and a satire of all the horribleness in the real world in the first place?


Well the Imperium is still gakky. But the Imperium has an extremely biased in-setting outlook; my main point is that the *omniscient* in-setting perspective is not ableist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gert wrote:
Spoiler:
Karol wrote:
Spanish. have you heard about the Condor legion.

The Spanish Civil War didn't start until 1936, at which point Germany sent the Condor Legion. So no, not the 1920s.


The German-Chinese cooperation was a thing from 1926 to 1943, till the goverment left mainliand China.

Ended in 1941 when the Japanese invaded China and only existed as a continuation of policy from the Weimar Republic because the Nazis needed raw material for its armed forces.


And Ukrainians worked with the Prussians, then Germans against Austrians, Austro Hungarians, Russians for 300+ years. Even the ribbentrop molotov packt had an addum about what the Abwehra controled ukrainian groups are suppose to do, or rather what they are suppose not to do aka not start acting in territories that were suppose to be soviets. But they kind of a didn't listen.

Germans and Nazis aren't the same things, stop equating the two.


Hitler claimed that the civilisation of China is better and higher, then that germans created, specialy as they were older then those of germans.

Hitler said it in 1936 when the Nazis were still trading with the Chinese therefore it can be chalked up to diplomatic posturing. As soon as China stopped being friends they cut ties and put any Chinese or Chinese-Germans they could find into labour camps.


Odd because in 1916 the German occupation army as the first thing it did, was to keep up Tsarist ban on polish schools, use of polish language etc. And Poles in Podlasie were no friends of Russians. Specialy post 1912 and the creation of Kholm Guberny.

And the Nazis recruited hundreds of thousands into the SS and Wehrmacht from Eastern Europe to fight the Soviets. They still didn't regard them as equals in their ideology.


Okey, while I could disagree with some of this. what does it have to do with how the imperial societies and laws work? Because an ork can bend in to a pretzel and he will never be able to be part of the human imperial society. the whole aryan thing was too esoteric to considered serious.

You said the Nazis were inclusive. You were wrong. The Nazis had three classes of humans, the pure Aryans, the servants (literally everyone else), and the "subhuman".
As for the Imperium, there are many minor Xenos races living within the Imperium as "protectorates", the Imperium has cooperated and even set up trade agreements with the T'au, and Ork mercenaries are routinely hired by the Imperium. But like the Nazis, every single one of these is considered inferior to the primary race.


Joing HJ and BDM was obligatory, but if the racial element was so crucial . The state wouldn't allow children from Kamerun or China to join the organisations.

You're going to need to provide a source for that claim my guy because I have never seen that.

The long and short is you don't know half as much as you think you do Karol.


Just report him for Nazi apologetics and move on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/01 22:01:57


 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I think you can point to several threads on this forum where it clearly shows the inclusiveness problem is not in the game, but in the player base.

Until we don't let literal nazi's participate in Tournaments, and literal White Supremacists have GW sanctioned Influencer status, all the female Custodes and Brown skinned IG Colonels won't make a spit of difference.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






"Don't hate the game, hate the player."

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you can point to several threads on this forum where it clearly shows the inclusiveness problem is not in the game, but in the player base.

Until we don't let literal nazi's participate in Tournaments, and literal White Supremacists have GW sanctioned Influencer status, all the female Custodes and Brown skinned IG Colonels won't make a spit of difference.


I agree, however, fixing those blatant examples are easy enough if people are willing. But fixing the more prevalent toxic community issues is the harder task that will take action from GW, and representation is a big part of that. While you can be accused of having sexual fetishes for having modeled female marines in your army or the swathe unpleasantness that was the trans-phobia thread, the whole community needs to work to make this a better place to be.
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Why are people talking about how inclusive the community is when the topic is specifically about the setting? Can you just not pass up an opportunity to bitch about the community or something?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 10:19:23



 
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

 Sim-Life wrote:
Why are people talking about how inclusive the community is when the topic is specifically about the setting? Can you just not pass up an opportunity to bitch about the community or something?


It’s not bitching when their are genuine issues.

As for the setting. The main faction literally do not tolerate and will kick or eliminate anyone or anything that goes against what they demand of them. They have a policy of genocide of anyone who’s not towing the line.

The setting isn’t inclusive.
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Andykp wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Why are people talking about how inclusive the community is when the topic is specifically about the setting? Can you just not pass up an opportunity to bitch about the community or something?


It’s not bitching when their are genuine issues.

As for the setting. The main faction literally do not tolerate and will kick or eliminate anyone or anything that goes against what they demand of them. They have a policy of genocide of anyone who’s not towing the line.

The setting isn’t inclusive.


If it's a genuine issue start a different thread. Don't derail threads with something that specifically isn't what we're discussing.

Also as previously stated most races in the setting don't care what you do as an individual (if you're allowed that luxury) unless its something that contravenes basic issues a race or Empire involved in a galactic scale war would generally be concerned about and even then several of the more civilised races like T'au, Eldar are diplomatically involved with the Imperium and generally tolerated as long as they don't do something that might kick off a fight. The Imperium doesn't care if its citizens are transgendered, disabled or whatever. Just pay your tithe and don't grow extra heads or worship anything with more than 4 limbs and they don't give a gak what you do with your free time.

You say that the Imperium doesn't tolerate anything that goes against them but what does that mean? As I said do you think its unfair that planetary governors don't sit down and hear out the concerns of Genestealer Magii or try to see the positives about being turned into nutritional paste by aliens? Or that the population of an agri-world should feel some kind of guilt for colonizing a tomb world (the fact that it's been dormant for millions of years is irrelevant, check your mortal flesh privilege)? Applying OUR standards of inclusivity to a faction that has been at war for literally thousands of years with incredibly hostile forces is a fools errand. It's honestly kind of surprising that the Imperium is as tolerant of xenos as it is.


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

Define "inclusive".
If you mean in terms of everyone getting along like in Star Trek, well, no because the setting was designed to be the opposite of star trek. Rather than an enlightened, utopian future where petty human vices and grievances are outdated, we have a violent, dystopian future where the worse parts of humanity are put on display and encouraged.

If you mean in terms of variations of themes and factions, yes. GW ripped off pretty much every setting and sci-fi trope out there.

If you mean in terms of humans also yes, because the Imperium doesn't care what phenotype or chromosomes you have, as long as you do what you're told and not have any deformity that could be construed as chaotic.

If you mean in terms of ideas or freedoms of expression, lol no. The Imperium doesn't like that because it conflicts with the above point. "Do what you're told" and "believe and say what you want" tend not to mix. Poor Voltaire wouldn't last 3 seconds in the Imperium.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/02 11:28:58


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Andykp wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
Why are people talking about how inclusive the community is when the topic is specifically about the setting? Can you just not pass up an opportunity to bitch about the community or something?


It’s not bitching when their are genuine issues.

As for the setting. The main faction literally do not tolerate and will kick or eliminate anyone or anything that goes against what they demand of them. They have a policy of genocide of anyone who’s not towing the line.

The setting isn’t inclusive.


Its a Sci-fi dystopian setting where humanity faces annihilation on all fronts from a host of enemies who include bugs, space fungus, BDSM elves and a bunch of others, and your biggest complaint is that the setting isn't inclusive and the fanbase is toxic.....Yeah, pretty sure the setting and the fanbase aren't the problem in this scenario Andy.

And as far as the fanbase being toxic....I've been to a hundred if not more Game stores, i've played in tournaments at the ITC/GT level and all the way down to the beer league free for all where we had a genius designer incorporate a giant squig bird into a game (was AWESOME!) i've met thousands of players....I have yet to meet a single one of them who was toxic or a white supremacist or a misogynist or any other buzz word you feel like using. In fact, my biggest complaint would be the toxic nature of their body odor

To be very blunt here, if you don't like the dystopian setting created over decades by the company.....find a new game, because most if not all of us enjoy the world they have created. And no, its not because we are all secretly nazi's or more buzzwords, its because its a FAKE SETTING and we find it fun to fight our little painted army men in.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

Andykp wrote:
It’s not bitching when their are genuine issues.

It is still off-topic, though. If you feel the need to discuss the state of the community, feel free to open another thread about it.

Andykp wrote:
As for the setting. The main faction literally do not tolerate and will kick or eliminate anyone or anything that goes against what they demand of them. They have a policy of genocide of anyone who’s not towing the line.

The setting isn’t inclusive.

While the fine print is left to each planetary governor, the Imperial Creed itself is pretty open to anything that can be considered a stable human. We are not talking about "hey that guy is gay so he won't be promoted to higher ranks". It's "hey that guy can create explosions when he sneezes and is a potential portal for a demon invasion, put a hole in his head". If you want to, there is totally room in the setting for your shining democratic planet where life is pretty decent compared to the rest of the galaxy, where people are a little bit less xenophobic and the planetary governor is doing some off the record trading with the nearby Xenos. The setting is open for that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/02 11:43:50


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in ca
Traitor




Canada

you know you have to be a part of the National Socialist party to be an actual Not zi. That word doesn't mean whatever you want it to. You don't seem to understand what a white supprems is either. Every person has an ingroup preference. That is part of being human. You don't get to sling mud at people because their's is different then yours.

SemperMortis is right on the money.
And the guard takes all in, unless the person is a danger to all around them.

Pew, Pew! 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





a_typical_hero wrote:
Andykp wrote:
It’s not bitching when their are genuine issues.

It is still off-topic, though. If you feel the need to discuss the state of the community, feel free to open another thread about it.

Andykp wrote:
As for the setting. The main faction literally do not tolerate and will kick or eliminate anyone or anything that goes against what they demand of them. They have a policy of genocide of anyone who’s not towing the line.

The setting isn’t inclusive.

While the fine print is left to each planetary governor, the Imperial Creed itself is pretty open to anything that can be considered a stable human. We are not talking about "hey that guy is gay so he won't be promoted to higher ranks". It's "hey that guy can create explosions when he sneezes and is a potential portal for a demon invasion, put a hole in his head". If you want to, there is totally room in the setting for your shining democratic planet where life is pretty decent compared to the rest of the galaxy, where people are a little bit less xenophobic and the planetary governor is doing some off the record trading with the nearby Xenos. The setting is open for that.


Isn't the Imperium pretty much willing to turn a blind eye to trading with xenos as long as it's not overtly against the Imperium's interests. That's basically what a rogue trader is after all.


 
   
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Ok, feth it. Severina Raine merely exists. There, 40k is now inclusive!
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

 Sim-Life wrote:
That's basically what a rogue trader is after all.

Exactly what they are. I didn't think about them when I replied earlier.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, feth it. Severina Raine merely exists. There, 40k is now inclusive!

This discussion is about the setting, not the models. There is no official lore to my knowledge that forbids any fit human to join the Guard, regardless of gender, orientation, skin, ... and so on.
Sisters as well as female Eldar models have existed ever since 2nd edition. I don't see your point in that regards, either.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 14:59:56


Imperial Guard Space Marines
 
   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Considering the fact that the mentality of 40k Imperium is heavily based on Middle Ages, which was a real low point in humanity's morals and ethics, I'd say expecting 21st century views on human rights there is very optimistic. I think prejudice, in-group thinking, bigotry and xenophoby are the everyday reality throughout the Imperium and the only reason why we don't have even more of it in the fluff is that it mostly describes warzones not everyday life.
   
Made in gb
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle




Cant see this thread going anywhere good from this point.
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Cyel wrote:
Considering the fact that the mentality of 40k Imperium is heavily based on Middle Ages, which was a real low point in humanity's morals and ethics, I'd say expecting 21st century views on human rights there is very optimistic. I think prejudice, in-group thinking, bigotry and xenophoby are the everyday reality throughout the Imperium and the only reason why we don't have even more of it in the fluff is that it mostly describes warzones not everyday life.


It's not very accurate then since there are many women in high positions of power like the Inquisition, the High Lords of Terra (not just the SoB one, the current Inquisitorial and Administratum representatives are women, the Admiral of the Imperial Navy was also a woman though shes dead now and I don't know who replaced her). So yeah, "heavily based on" in terms of aesthetic definitly, feudalistic in some ways sure, but socially the Imperium is likely pretty inclusive.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/02 20:01:29



 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

steelhead177th wrote:
you know you have to be a part of the National Socialist party to be an actual Not zi.


"This guy parading around with a swastika flag and talking about how the Jews need to be exterminated isn't technically a member of the 1930s-1940s political party and isn't even in Germany! Definitely not a Nazi!"

GTFO with your Nazi apologism.

You don't get to sling mud at people because their's is different then yours.


I absolutely do when your "ingroup preference" is defined by excluding women, non-white people, etc.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
I have yet to meet a single one of them who was toxic or a white supremacist or a misogynist or any other buzz word you feel like using.


Either you've been really fortunate or haven't been paying attention. Here's a picture of the guy who provoked the "warhammer is not for you" letter from GW:



And before you say this was just one guy note that the TO allowed him to stay even after people complained and gave them match losses for refusing to play against him.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 20:19:10


THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





CadianSgtBob wrote:
steelhead177th wrote:
you know you have to be a part of the National Socialist party to be an actual Not zi.

And before you say this was just one guy note that the TO allowed him to stay even after people complained and gave them match losses for refusing to play against him.


...so...two guys then?


 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

 Sim-Life wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
steelhead177th wrote:
you know you have to be a part of the National Socialist party to be an actual Not zi.

And before you say this was just one guy note that the TO allowed him to stay even after people complained and gave them match losses for refusing to play against him.


...so...two guys then?


More than that. A TO doesn't make that kind of ruling without trusting that the community will back them and it won't be an instant death sentence to their ability to run future events. And Nazi dude doesn't show up wearing Nazi symbols unless he feels safe at the event instead of worrying about getting a well-deserved beating behind the store while the cameras all happen to be down for maintenance.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Really?

There was the entire Arch Incident, then there was the Totenkomph on the Imperial Knight by Reece, then there was the fact that QAnon made the EoM their personal meme, because the Imperial beliefs so closely matched their own, then you have this total clown show.

Not to mention the countless examples of bigotry and racism that goes on in THIS GAME'S SETTING. This game is literally tied to some of the worst fanbois in the entire gaming culture, and I'll include the Smash FGC pedo crowd in that. 40k has tried very hard to crawl towards a better fan base for the last 5-10 years, and people like this clown are holding it back.
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Why is it so hard for people to understand the difference between the words "setting" and "community"?
Spoiler:

Also I like the fact that people are focusing on the nazi guy but not the fact that THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY REFUSED TO PLAY AGAINST HIM because of it. So which is it?


 
   
Made in fr
Trazyn's Museum Curator





on the forum. Obviously

CadianSgtBob wrote:

Either you've been really fortunate or haven't been paying attention.

If by "really fortunate" you just mean average.
Have you considered that nazi encounters are actually a rare and unfortunate occurrence rather than the standard?

Like shark attacks. Not everyone who swims get eaten by a shark. But when they do happen, it gets everyone's attention.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2022/07/02 21:35:00


What I have
~4100
~1660

Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!

A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you can point to several threads on this forum where it clearly shows the inclusiveness problem is not in the game, but in the player base.

Until we don't let literal nazi's participate in Tournaments, and literal White Supremacists have GW sanctioned Influencer status, all the female Custodes and Brown skinned IG Colonels won't make a spit of difference.


So, here's the deal. We are going to fight against all forms of Communism and Leftism. You sound like some BLM or Antifa supporter, and we aren't going to EVER tolerate those kinds of players in our community. At our shop, we ran several of those types off, and we will continue to do so. That's just how it is.
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

RealAndTrue wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you can point to several threads on this forum where it clearly shows the inclusiveness problem is not in the game, but in the player base.

Until we don't let literal nazi's participate in Tournaments, and literal White Supremacists have GW sanctioned Influencer status, all the female Custodes and Brown skinned IG Colonels won't make a spit of difference.


So, here's the deal. We are going to fight against all forms of Communism and Leftism. You sound like some BLM or Antifa supporter, and we aren't going to EVER tolerate those kinds of players in our community. At our shop, we ran several of those types off, and we will continue to do so. That's just how it is.


Two posts, both idiotic right-wing trolling, nothing to say about gaming. I hope your main account also gets banned.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Andykp wrote:
[While you can be accused of having sexual fetishes for having modeled female marines in your army


Have you been to 4chan? Every pro-female SM poster there is deep on the "I want a muscular woman to dominate me" kink. It's, uh... problematic, shall we say.
   
 
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