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Personally, I think that most of the Eldar hate comes from the fact that their specialist units were not very good at their specializations so would focus on the units that would get them there for that one turn in which they were good... it's probably the main reason, most older players have at least one unit from everything in the Eldar line. Everything has been good, for an edition, for all the other editions, they've been terrible, or a necessary include. A la DAVU falcons.

But it is interesting to see that a lot of angst comes from the fact that, in previous editions, eldar were hard to kill... I have a feeling that stuck in peoples minds more than anything, especially given that there were other factions at the time that were Much more powerful and prevalent.

Take 3th ed for example... CWE Eldar had some powerful tricks, but they paled in comparison to 3.5 Chaos or Dark Eldar. There were some others there but it's been to long that I don't remember.

5th ed is another example... true Eldar were hard to kill but they had the same Number of guns as the other armies out there but were hitting on 4's where everyone else was hitting on three's, and while it was difficult to kill an Eldar tank, it was very easy to stun lock them with mid str weapons. I think people forget the terror that was Grey Knight Rifleman Dreds, or Orc Nob biker deathstars, or Space Marine Drop pod lists, or BA Thunderhawk rushes, Leaf Blower, Las Plas pill boxes... and so on.

As for 6th, Eldar were obnoxious not because they were eldar, but because they could Ally Tau... Taudar was a thing that really allowed the short comings of both armies to be shorn up.

7th you had the wraithknight detachment, (never played 7th) but then you had other detachments that were just as obnoxious, if not more so. Decurion anyone?

8th Eldar were winning because of stacked buffs on Fliers... not because of anything else in the codex....

There were other interactions that were annoying to people like JSJ but that was also the age of the Thunderfire Cannon and Basilisks

I never had anyone get hostile to me for playing Eldar. Most seemed intrigued because the environment we played in was not full of Eldar players. I can remember two complaints about the army in general from tournaments. Both times the complaints focused on the same thing. They were complaints about the old Runes of Warding that made psychic tests harder for my opponents. Both times the complaints were from Tyranid players.

If Tau get hate just for existing, it's probably due to their less than grimdark presentation and they fact that they were bolted onto the game well after the core fluff was developed. Eldar have been around since the beginning, are foundational to the setting and therefore deserve to be in 40k, even if many people don't particularly care for them.

Of anyone genuinely hates eldar or elves they should probably seek help

Dai wrote:
Of anyone genuinely hates eldar or elves they should probably seek help

Help.... exterminating them?

The main issue with Eldar is that they have a whole bunch of units that are different from the norm of the game. That means that there are many more units that have an opportunity to be broken. Many usually are broken in a way that makes them utterly useless, but it only takes a few too strong ones to warp a game.

We somewhat jokingly refer to the Eldar as "Codex: Don't follow the rules" because the entire point of half their codex is that they ignore game mechanics or give so many re-rolls as to basically guarantee hits for their specific weapons or rolls they need.

As far as Eldar being held up by skill and skill alone for the last few editions....um, no. In 7th Eldar borderline became extinct because it was such an easy mode army that nobody wanted to play against them. Just like nobody wanted to play against Triptide and SM Demi-Company lists. The difference being that Eldar didn't require their super formation to be broken, their entire codex was broken. Bring some D-Cannons, sprinkle in Warp spiders, Scatbikes, Warlocks etc to flavor and poof you win most games unless your opponent is bringing some heavy cheese. And besides a few standout units which were mediocre like Banshees and scorpions, the entire codex was usually better than everyone else's on a Data sheet vs Data sheet basis. Heck, Firedragons got AP0 which meant at the time, they received +2 to blow up vehicles, nobody else had that. I mean, in 7th you could throw a handful of darts at a board listing Eldar units and you could usually come out with a better than most list

SemperMortis wrote:
We somewhat jokingly refer to the Eldar as "Codex: Don't follow the rules" because the entire point of half their codex is that they ignore game mechanics or give so many re-rolls as to basically guarantee hits for their specific weapons or rolls they need.

I find this sentiment kind of weird considering that in recent memory, it wasn't Eldar that got T1-deepstrike when nobody else did, easy access to re-rolls on everything, army-wide FNPs/damage reduction/ignore cover, flat -1 to all incoming AP, relaxed restrictions on Rapid Fire, or completely ignoring Combat Attrition.

Unless you're talking primarily pre-8th; I'm not familiar with how they played in 6th/7th.

 catbarf wrote:


I find this sentiment kind of weird considering that in recent memory, it wasn't Eldar that got T1-deepstrike when nobody else did, easy access to re-rolls on everything, army-wide FNPs/damage reduction/ignore cover, flat -1 to all incoming AP, relaxed restrictions on Rapid Fire, or completely ignoring Combat Attrition.

Unless you're talking primarily pre-8th; I'm not familiar with how they played in 6th/7th.

Key word there is recent memory. 8th-9th makes up only a small portion of the games history and even in 8th the Eldar got some truly head scratching rules options. The flying circus in 8th helped force several major rule changes. 7th was almost bad to play eldar because it was hard to find games. The army was so good that even unoptimized lists would roll over people.

But I think everyone agrees the full on extra codex for space marine RYGBIV has not been good for the game either. It just only really reared it’s head with those I boldly books at the end of 8th.

 catbarf wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
We somewhat jokingly refer to the Eldar as "Codex: Don't follow the rules" because the entire point of half their codex is that they ignore game mechanics or give so many re-rolls as to basically guarantee hits for their specific weapons or rolls they need.

I find this sentiment kind of weird considering that in recent memory, it wasn't Eldar that got T1-deepstrike when nobody else did, easy access to re-rolls on everything, army-wide FNPs/damage reduction/ignore cover, flat -1 to all incoming AP, relaxed restrictions on Rapid Fire, or completely ignoring Combat Attrition.

Unless you're talking primarily pre-8th; I'm not familiar with how they played in 6th/7th.

5th, 6th, 7th. But even in 8th they had some ridiculous levels of shenanigans that didn't follow game mechanics or circumvented them. Hell, The jetbike turn 1 charge across the board was a great example of an alpha strike unit that could functionally ignore everything since they were jetbike units.

bibotot wrote:
Not on DakkaDakka but Reddit, Fanfiction websites, and gaming forums. Whenever I suggest the Asuryani to not fight the Imperium only to be completely butchered - since they are supposed to be wise and careful and they can see the ass-kicking from a mile away - people keep deriding me and telling me to get lost.

It's really absurd. And I feel like the whole community hates this faction so much that they don't want to hear anything positive about them.

Get lost

/s

SemperMortis wrote:


5th, 6th, 7th. But even in 8th they had some ridiculous levels of shenanigans that didn't follow game mechanics or circumvented them. Hell, The jetbike turn 1 charge across the board was a great example of an alpha strike unit that could functionally ignore everything since they were jetbike units.

Eldar were a non-factor in 5th, which was defined by marines, dark eldar, IG, greyknights and necrons. CSM and orks had some early success, but they were quickly overshadowed by the others. Eldar were rarely seen because their 4th edition codex didn't mesh well with the 5th edition rules. For example. Howling Banshees couldn't effectively charge into/through cover. Their banshee mask rule was written for 4th edition when cover gave an initiative bonus to the charged squad. Banshees were supposed to go into melee at initiative 10 and strike first. In 5th they would strike last. A few notable players (Reccius, Blackmoor) had some tournament success with the counterintuitive Footdar concept, but Eldar were not dominating anything.

6th edition brought the Wraithknight, three new flavors of Wraithguard (the two kinds of wraithblades and wraithguard with d-scythes), and the fighters. The standout unit was the Wave Serpent. It would carry a turret with twin-linked scatterlasers (36" S6 AP6 Heavy4) with the laser lock rule. That was required to fire first. If it scored any hits, the other weapons fired from the serpent would also count as twin-linked (re-roll misses). The follow up attack would be from the serpent shield 60" S7 AP- Assault D6+1, pinning, ignores cover. The other part of 6th was the allies table. Combining Tau and Eldar as Taudar was a popular strategy.

I didn't play in 7th, but it is my understanding that eldar jetbike spam was a menace. It might also have been sometime in 7th when Warp Spiders had a moment where they caused lots of problems, but I only know about that from reading about it here.

 Arschbombe wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:


5th, 6th, 7th. But even in 8th they had some ridiculous levels of shenanigans that didn't follow game mechanics or circumvented them. Hell, The jetbike turn 1 charge across the board was a great example of an alpha strike unit that could functionally ignore everything since they were jetbike units.

Eldar were a non-factor in 5th, which was defined by marines, dark eldar, IG, greyknights and necrons. CSM and orks had some early success, but they were quickly overshadowed by the others. Eldar were rarely seen because their 4th edition codex didn't mesh well with the 5th edition rules. For example. Howling Banshees couldn't effectively charge into/through cover. Their banshee mask rule was written for 4th edition when cover gave an initiative bonus to the charged squad. Banshees were supposed to go into melee at initiative 10 and strike first. In 5th they would strike last. A few notable players (Reccius, Blackmoor) had some tournament success with the counterintuitive Footdar concept, but Eldar were not dominating anything.

6th edition brought the Wraithknight, three new flavors of Wraithguard (the two kinds of wraithblades and wraithguard with d-scythes), and the fighters. The standout unit was the Wave Serpent. It would carry a turret with twin-linked scatterlasers (36" S6 AP6 Heavy4) with the laser lock rule. That was required to fire first. If it scored any hits, the other weapons fired from the serpent would also count as twin-linked (re-roll misses). The follow up attack would be from the serpent shield 60" S7 AP- Assault D6+1, pinning, ignores cover. The other part of 6th was the allies table. Combining Tau and Eldar as Taudar was a popular strategy.

Spot on from what I recall.

I didn't play in 7th, but it is my understanding that eldar jetbike spam was a menace. It might also have been sometime in 7th when Warp Spiders had a moment where they caused lots of problems, but I only know about that from reading about it here.

Yeah. Jetbikes were a big part of it. Late 7th edition was so hyper lethal that you generally removed entire units at a time (unless they were an invisible death star). Conventional defenses weren't super reliable against that level of offense. Jetbikes with their move-shoot-move could potentially hide behind terrain and become untargetable, which was often a better defense than having a good armor save or whatever.

The other major things in 7th were wraith knights, d-weapons in general, and warp spiders. Wraith knights were just fast/tough/scary enough to overpower most threats. Being an MC instead of a vehicle meant that you couldn't one-shot them as reliably as you could something like an imperial knight. D-weapons (wraithguard, wraith knights, etc.) were really powerful because they could basically insta-gib anything, including imperial knights (more or less). And this was in an edition where imperial knights were a pretty common sight in the meta. And then warp spiders were kind of a variation on the jetbike thing: lots of strength 6 shooting on a platform that could move out of line of sight. Specifically, warp spiders could move 2d6(?) inches every time you targeted them in the shooting phase, so they were usually able to get out of line of sight provided there was some terrain nearby. They could also be taken as part of a formation that made them hit on 2+. Also also, they were Fast Attack and jetbikes were still Troops, so you could fill your army with plenty of both. The bikes would sit back and shoot you from across the table, and the spiders would deepstrike behind you and take potshots at your rear armor if you tried to move up the board.

Oh. And we were pretty good at making invisible deathstars, so there's that.

EDIT: For perspective, a competitive late 7th edition matchup might basically be 2400 points of space marines flinging themselves onto objectives while 2000 points of eldar removed entire units of marines at a time. It was basically a rolloff to see if the 400 extra points could survive long enough to win on points.

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but as someone who's been around for awhile.

I guarantee you Tau/Tau fans are given it worse. Between the mecha/anime connotation and at a glance the Tau system could be interpreted as communism.

Compare this with the average Imperium fanboy,and need I say more? Eldar may be a bit effeminate but Tau and often the sort of personality drawn to them clashes with the average 40k player.

edit: eh nevermind

That said quite happy to play eldar or any other faction.

Hate against Ekdar/Tau, or whatever is either a tongue in cheek or you are pkaying against a ****.

And Tau are not "communist" in abstract, there cast system clossely resembles the flag of the ChPR... Anyhow that just one of their many inspirations. Like CSM can be at the same time abrahamic fallen angels and death metal musicians.

Why would anybody fill real rejection against an enligthetened progressive system such as the one of the TAU (which in the setting is compared to early human DAOT), is beyond my comprehension (unless they are reactionaries in RL and believe late 16th century Europe was the peak of human endevour).

Tau aren't really enlightened progressives though. Unless you think subjugating "primitive races" and subsuming and eventually eradicating their culture into your collective is progressive.

If a political entity starts ranting about the "greater good" and you should sacrifice everything for it, you should run.
And that's the point about the Tau; they aren't the good guys, they just seem that way because they aren't as overtly bleak and dystopian as the Imperium. It's Brave New World as opposed to 1984.
In any other setting they would be be the antagonists.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Tau aren't really enlightened progressives though. Unless you think subjugating "primitive races" and subsuming and eventually eradicating their culture into your collective is progressive.

If a political entity starts ranting about the "greater good" and you should sacrifice everything for it, you should run.
And that's the point about the Tau; they aren't the good guys, they just seem that way because they aren't as overtly bleak and dystopian as the Imperium. It's Brave New World as opposed to 1984.
In any other setting they would be be the antagonists.

And remember, it tends to be “Join Us, Or Die”, which is not Good Guy Behaviour. Sure, they don’t seem terribly genocidal in the 40K grand scheme of things. But if they want your planet? They’re going to take it by hook or by crook. Negotiation may be preferred, but The Old Ultra V always remains on the table of options.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Tau aren't really enlightened progressives though. Unless you think subjugating "primitive races" and subsuming and eventually eradicating their culture into your collective is progressive.

If a political entity starts ranting about the "greater good" and you should sacrifice everything for it, you should run.
And that's the point about the Tau; they aren't the good guys, they just seem that way because they aren't as overtly bleak and dystopian as the Imperium. It's Brave New World as opposed to 1984.
In any other setting they would be be the antagonists.

And remember, it tends to be “Join Us, Or Die”, which is not Good Guy Behaviour. Sure, they don’t seem terribly genocidal in the 40K grand scheme of things. But if they want your planet? They’re going to take it by hook or by crook. Negotiation may be preferred, but The Old Ultra V always remains on the table of options.

Yep, they're basically your stereotypical empire, right down to that old Roman / 19th colonial jingoist policy of bringing civilization to the savages

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Tau aren't really enlightened progressives though. Unless you think subjugating "primitive races" and subsuming and eventually eradicating their culture into your collective is progressive.

If a political entity starts ranting about the "greater good" and you should sacrifice everything for it, you should run.
And that's the point about the Tau; they aren't the good guys, they just seem that way because they aren't as overtly bleak and dystopian as the Imperium. It's Brave New World as opposed to 1984.
In any other setting they would be be the antagonists.

Politics is not a matter of absolutes but rather of relative values... To be the "good guys" you dont have to follow Kants ethics (or any other form of high morale standard) you simply have to be better than your antagonists.

And by the way thats the real meaning of progressiveness in RL... "Goodness" cannot be established in absolute terms (unless you have a fundamentalist POV) but surely a society can live better than the previous generation (even doe every progress in one direction means a lost in another one, thats an almost universal law of biological evolution).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Tau aren't really enlightened progressives though. Unless you think subjugating "primitive races" and subsuming and eventually eradicating their culture into your collective is progressive.

If a political entity starts ranting about the "greater good" and you should sacrifice everything for it, you should run.
And that's the point about the Tau; they aren't the good guys, they just seem that way because they aren't as overtly bleak and dystopian as the Imperium. It's Brave New World as opposed to 1984.
In any other setting they would be be the antagonists.

From my POV a Brave New World is a worst distopian setting than 1984 (both are not desirable at all, mind you... I have read both).

Different people have different values.

Values are socially, historically and culturally determined... You cannot make an objective measure out of them, just like out of "utility".

It's hard to argue that the Tau are not better than the Imperium, though still not "white hat good guys", because many of those conquered by the Tau enjoy an objectively better material standard of life.

We know the Tau have successfully incorporated human auxiliaries, the gue'vesa, into their society and that this has been happening since the end of the Damocles Crusade. We know from stories set in more recent times like Broken Sword by Guy Haley in the Damocles anthology, but which is set in the conquest of Agrellan, that about the life of these as that story is told from the perspective of one such gue'vesa who even rises to gue'vesa'vre and ends up having vocal cord surgery to better pronounce the Tau language. Basically, a number of them are resettled in a settlement with fresh food, water, clean air, good housing, and education for their children. This extends even to widow benefits as the character describes how the widow of a slain gue'vesa comrade is well treated and her son wishes to join the gue'vesa auxiliaries too when he grows up. The character describes how those brought from the hive world of Agrellan felt like they had entered paradise. The Water Caste member this character sort of befriends admits that the main focus is not so much the first generation of humans (i.e. those that are captured or defect) but the 2nd generation and beyond of humans that grow up with the Greater Good.

So yes, the Tau may indoctrinate you and your next generation about the Greater Good, but while doing so you will enjoy clean air, food, water, housing, widow benefits etc... The Imperium will indoctrinate you into the Ecclesiarchy's faith, and you get none of the above.

As a form of oppression or brain washing, it is at least a more comfortable one.

Just about every faction in 40K is xenophobic, but some factions at least treat their own fairly well, such as the Craftworlders and the Tau (we'll have to see about the LoV), at least physically. The Imperium is worse because it actively oppresses its own.

Yes, you are required to follow the Imperial Faith in the Imperium, but aren't worlds permitted a degree of cultural autonomy? Tallarn isn't like Cadia or Mordia, is it? The Imperial Faith differs too depending on local customs, doesn't it?

Do they allow the same in the Tau Empire? Isn't the end goal to condition everyone to follow the Greater Good and eventually sacrifice everything they once were in a few generations?
Does a human ever have a chance of being an Ethereal or part of the ruling class, or will non-Tau stay subservient to Tau?

That's why I made the Brave New World comparison; everyone is "happy" in Brave New World, but at the cost of having to sacrifice history, culture, and following a strict caste system that is determined by genetic engineering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vatsetis wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Tau aren't really enlightened progressives though. Unless you think subjugating "primitive races" and subsuming and eventually eradicating their culture into your collective is progressive.

If a political entity starts ranting about the "greater good" and you should sacrifice everything for it, you should run.
And that's the point about the Tau; they aren't the good guys, they just seem that way because they aren't as overtly bleak and dystopian as the Imperium. It's Brave New World as opposed to 1984.
In any other setting they would be be the antagonists.

Politics is not a matter of absolutes but rather of relative values... To be the "good guys" you dont have to follow Kants ethics (or any other form of high morale standard) you simply have to be better than your antagonists.

That seems to be a very low bar to reach.
By that logic, you can commit as many atrocities as your enemy, but as long as you don't, I dunno, eat babies, that makes you good?
That doesn't seem right to me.

Vatsetis wrote:


And by the way thats the real meaning of progressiveness in RL... "Goodness" cannot be established in absolute terms (unless you have a fundamentalist POV) but surely a society can live better than the previous generation

Sure, if by that you mean under the yoke of a Imperialist alien power that might exterminate your entire species if they think it benefits the whole.

If you eat less babies (or only eat already dead babies as opposed to living ones) than your opposition then you are indeed amongst "the good guys".

If you want a fictional example take TWD... The good guys (Ricks group) do absolutly horrific things but since they are better somehow than the antagonists you root for them.

In RL even Gandhi followers did very cuestionable things from a "pure ethics" POV, oprresion corrupts both the oppressed and the oppressors

I have no doubt that if transported into the 40k setting anyone here will surely try to reach an isolated human world and pray so that nothing menacing happens (Demons, Black Templars, Tiranids...) or try to reach the security of the Tau Empire (which morally and technically is much closer to XXI century developed world than the IOM, which is actually ruled partly by transhumans - biological and mechanical-so detached from present day humanity that they might be enterily aliens).

Apart from some DNA I have nothing in common with an Astartes, a Custodes, a Tecnoadept, or an imperial agent than have lived more than a 1000 years.

So Taus are biologically more alien but ideologically much closer to my views.

Perhaps LOV would be another viable alternative, but I dont know if they accept "base humans" into their society.

A lot of people have their ego inextricably linked to this game and how well they do at it.

When one faction gets a disproportionate share of bent rules across it's history that's going to lead to resentment and in the less well adjusted folk social miscues and offensive behavior.

I have very much enjoyed the revisionist history on display in this thread though. I thought we'd finally shed that sect of the elven population during the excessively egregious 6th/7th era but here we are.