Exhibition Analysis Thread

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**vipoid**

Aside - there are many reasons for me to be envious of Eldar, but it's definitely sad to see what has become of Witchblades.

**Trickstick**

3 units of scout sentinels seems like a must take for Guard now. Throwing out reroll 1s to hit is really nice.

**Voss**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Tossing up what I missed:

Warp Spiders

Spoiler:

I will say the warp spider datacard looks like a unit waiting for an update. You can still feel the neglect.

**Daedalus81**

Yea I hope an exarch puts a little extra oomph in their step.

**vipoid**

Seems a shame that Exarchs have lost their higher WS/BS.

**H.B.M.C.**

Along with pretty much everything else.

**vipoid**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Along with pretty much everything else.

Tagline of the edition at this point, I guess.

**Trickstick**

Me, as a Guardsman who didn't play 9th, just looking at all the cool stuff I get....

I don't like the weird options that units get though. Looked at the 9th edition cadian command squad, that is painful.

**H.B.M.C.**

vipoid wrote:
Tagline of the edition at this point, I guess.

It's the sheer level of inconsistency that gets to me.

All the Exarch weapons (that have miniature representation)? In tact, it seems.
Vet Sergeant weapons? Appear to be mostly there.
Hybrid Squad leaders? Oh they get a "Leader Pistol" because we simply can't make a Web Pistol and a Bolt Pistol distinct.
Dark Eldar? Let's not even use the word Agoniser, something the DE have had since the first showed up at the start of 3rd, and give them a generic weapon profile.
Blightlord Terminators with Flails? Full rules! Go for it!
Plague Marines with Flails? No, no, no! They must be merged with the giant cleaver!

And this squad can have a Meltagun, or a Flamer, or a Plasma Gun, or a Grav-Gun... but if we weld a Bolter onto it, we can't show those different types of weapons. That'd be just too much! And it just gets worse if you're a Deathwatch Veteran... holy gak...

Then you get some real weirdness like "Las Small Arms" on the Heavy Weapon squads. Like, how are we going to show that some of them has Lasguns and some have Laspistols? Should we put the Lasgun and Laspistol profiles - two common as dirt items - on their sheet? Nah dawg, let's give 'em a completely new amalgamated hybrid weapon that's between the two! Sure. That makes sense!

I bet the Tyranid Warrior and Carnifex sheets are going to be amazing...

**vipoid**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Tagline of the edition at this point, I guess.
It's the sheer level of inconsistency that gets to me.

All the Exarch weapons (that have miniature representation)? In tact, it seems.
Vet Sergeant weapons? Appear to be mostly there.
Hybrid Squad leaders? Oh they get a "Leader Pistol" because we simply can't make a Web Pistol and a Bolt Pistol distinct.
Dark Eldar? Let's not even use the word Agoniser, something the DE have had since the first showed up at the start of 3rd, and give them a generic weapon profile.
Blightlord Terminators with Flails? Full rules! Go for it!
Plague Marines with Flails? No, no, no! They must be merged with the giant cleaver!

And this squad can have a Meltagun, or a Flamer, or a Plasma Gun, or a Grav-Gun... but if we weld a Bolter onto it, we can't show those different types of weapons. That'd be just too much! And it just gets worse if you're a Deathwatch Veteran... holy gak...

Then you get some real weirdness like "Las Small Arms" on the Heavy Weapon squads. Like, how are we going to show that some of them has Lasguns and some have Laspistols? Should we put the Lasgun and Laspistol profiles - two common as dirt items - on their sheet? Nah dawg, let's give 'em a completely new amalgamated hybrid weapon that's between the two! Sure. That makes sense!

I bet the Tyranid Warrior and Carnifex sheets are going to be amazing...

Oh yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

But hey, can't have bad options if there are no options at all.

**Daedalus81**

I think the general distinction may be the basic troops get more basic things ( combi-weapons aside ). It will be interesting to see it all shake out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Avatar

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Russ - apparently going to be a diff datasheet for each loadout

Spoiler:

**H.B.M.C.**

Daedalus81 wrote:
I think the general distinction may be the basic troops get more basic things ( combi-weapons aside ). It will be interesting to see it all shake out.

There really is nothing you won't excuse, is there?

Daedalus81 wrote:
Russ - apparently going to be a diff datasheet for each loadout

Makes sense, otherwise you'd be limited to three Russ choices in total.

The Toughness is curious in how deliberate it is. It's 11. Lascannons are 12. They want Lascannons wounding Russes on 3's.

**Daedalus81**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
There really is nothing you won't excuse, is there?

It's not an excuse. I'm just interpreting the pattern I see.

**Sasori**

I'm going to say from both games, it really shows that you are going to need bring a much more balanced list that has some of everything.

The way 10th missions work is so much diffrent than we saw in 9th, with stuff like moving objectives. You're going to need to put in a real amount of anti-tank in lists now instead of just spamming the same type of unit and weapon that's good with everything.

You'll probably want some deepstriking units or something to deal with things like D-cannons in your opponents backfield.

It's a pretty insane shakeup from the missions we have now, that's for sure.

**Trickstick**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Toughness is curious in how deliberate it is. It's 11. Lascannons are 12. They want Lascannons wounding Russes on 3's.

Either they are cheaper, or they are pushing dorn. But there could be some unique rules if each main gun gets a different one. This special rule is quite nice.

**Daedalus81**

Catachans

Spoiler:

**H.B.M.C.**

I hate NMNR so much...

**Trickstick**

They make perfect chimera riders, assuming 2 fireports.

**H.B.M.C.**

Speaking of Chimeras, I do hope there's a Mechanised Infantry detachment that lets you take more than 6 of the things...

**Trickstick**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Speaking of Chimeras, I do hope there's a Mechanised Infantry detachment that lets you take more than 6 of the things...

GW: We sell these Taurox though...

**Daedalus81**

Wraithguard

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drone

Spoiler:

**Voss**

War Construct is a little insane.

Feel free to blast them from out of range, but firefights and melee are really nasty (yes, they can respond to melee attackers, its why [pistol] is there).

Only go after them up close if you can really go all in.

**Thariinye**

Wraithguard hitting on 4+ is rough with relatively few attacks, but honestly Eldar have the tools already to make them hit. Either Guide or Strands of Fate can make them more reliable, and I assume Spiritseers will also help somehow. And those attacks are still super hard hitting with massive AP. As an Iyanden player, I'm satisfied so far.

**Daedalus81**

Voss wrote:
War Construct is a little insane.

Feel free to blast them from out of range, but firefights and melee are really nasty (yes, they can respond to melee attackers, its why [pistol] is there).

Only go after them up close if you can really go all in.

People want to know what blasters / S8 AP3/4 weapons are for -- here you go.

Wraithguard got shifted around a ton.

+1M +1T +1Sv and their shoot into combat became the reactionary shoot
Lost 1BS, -1D. Cannon kept AP4, but went from D3+3 to D6 and DW. Scythe lost Blast and extra MW. All in all it seems well done.

**vipoid**

Some random thoughts on the rules seen thus far:

- DKoK seem pretty good. Granted, it will depend on the price, but potentially getting rerolls to hit and to wound seems like it could be pretty good on basic infantry. Shame GW fethed up the rules so that they have no way to actually take a medi-pack, despite the squad having rules for it.

- In contrast, boy have Witchblades fallen. I thought their rules in 9th were entirely reasonable - especially when the models using them are both expensive and generally getting just 2 attacks each. I don't play Eldar but I've always loved the idea of the Seer Council (probably as a result of playing too much Dawn of War), so it's quite sad to see an iconic weapon fall so low.

- Some of the unit abilities seem a little off. For example, I would have expected Sentinels to have to designate one of the units they actually shot for the rest of your army to get a bonus against, but instead it's just any unit within range. Likewise, Wraithguard's War Construct seems like it's meant to be a retaliatory ability, yet there's no requirement for them to fire at the same unit that attacked them. I don't know, both of these just feel a bit weird to me.

Also, some more venting:

Both the Character rules and the Enhancements seem to be turning most characters into glorified sergeants. Really not a fan. Apparently every army has flushed all their relic weapons and relic armour down the toilet, so that basically all that's left is squad-buffs. Can't wait for every single DE character to have the ranged capability of a Brussel Sprout except now they can't even buy a relic pistol to have a worthwhile gun.

Also, while I don't think that the psychic phase was necessary for 40k, I also don't think it was remotely necessary to strip all casting from psychic powers and make almost all of them either guns or always-on bonuses that only affect the psyker's own unit.

Honestly, I have yet to be convinced that the character rules in 10th are in any way an improvement over those in 8th. Yes, auras are now gone, but at an unbelievably high cost. Especially when GW could have just removed auras by removing auras. There were plenty of ways they could have replaced them without stripping so much flavour, options and utility from virtually every character in the game.

/rant

**Daedalus81**

vipoid wrote:
Also, some more venting:

Both the Character rules and the Enhancements seem to be turning most characters into glorified sergeants. Really not a fan. Apparently every army has flushed all their relic weapons and relic armour down the toilet, so that basically all that's left is squad-buffs. Can't wait for every single DE character to have the ranged capability of a Brussel Sprout except now they can't even buy a relic pistol to have a worthwhile gun.

Also, while I don't think that the psychic phase was necessary for 40k, I also don't think it was remotely necessary to strip all casting from psychic powers and make almost all of them either guns or always-on bonuses that only affect the psyker's own unit.

Honestly, I have yet to be convinced that the character rules in 10th are in any way an improvement over those in 8th. Yes, auras are now gone, but at an unbelievably high cost. Especially when GW could have just removed auras by removing auras. There were plenty of ways they could have replaced them without stripping so much flavour, options and utility from virtually every character in the game.

/rant

I'm guessing your thoughts are more focused on Warlock Skyrunners rather than other HQs, which I don't think follow the pattern of concern you have here.

The buffs remaining within the unit is pretty crucial. A Farseer can Fortune an Avatar. That's a pretty significant effect and it shows why that particular spell has a 2+ roll on it. If we were to allow a nearby Warlock Skyrunner to also grant the Avatar Stealth he would become even more durable.

Right now it's pretty trivial to hide a Farseer near an Avatar and throw out Doom and Fortune with no further investment. Now that investment becomes a unit to protect the Farseer reducing the total power and making the game less lethal.

I suspect that if the statement of '2000 datasheets' is true that we're going to see multiple sheets for Farseers and Warlocks. Each will have a different spell. So it could be possible to have a foot Farseer with Doom and a foot Farseer with Fortune, but the unit joining restrictions keep you again from focusing this power in one place.

**EviscerationPlague**

vipoid wrote:

Also, some more venting:

Both the Character rules and the Enhancements seem to be turning most characters into glorified sergeants.

Well that's what happens when a bunch of people don't realize why characters being stuck to squads was always dumb as a mechanic and 8th-9th had it figured out. No longer do you have leaders for your army, just squads!

**Gadzilla666**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
vipoid wrote:

Also, some more venting:

Both the Character rules and the Enhancements seem to be turning most characters into glorified sergeants.

Well that's what happens when a bunch of people don't realize why characters being stuck to squads was always dumb as a mechanic and 8th-9th had it figured out. No longer do you have leaders for your army, just squads!

Except, in previous editions, characters were not "stuck to squads". They could leave them and join them as you pleased. This whole "they're stuck there", is something new for 10th edition.

**Daedalus81**

Stuck there and you can't make a harem out of them, either. It's reasonably different from all prior systems.

**Breton**

Daedalus81 wrote:

At the same time rippers are OC0, but halve the OC of enemies. I really enjoy that sort of tactical consideration.

Rounded up or down? I.e. will OC1 models be OC0 or OC1?