Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is the one I've started using now https://imgbb.com

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Interesting.

More specifically, they compare the new Custodes change to the change from 1st generation Stormcast to Stormstrike armor complete with gendered armor.

I really wish they would bring BFG back. I always found it far more interesting than Epic/LI, which is mostly just the same 40K/HH stuff we already have in a different scale. But ships are something completely different.

And yeah, there are a lot third party suppliers, but it would be nice to have ships in modern GW plastic and the game to be actually supported.

But like a lot of people have said, it has to be 40K. HH is a boring setting with mirror matches and no room for personalisation. I want Eldar corsairs, and I want marine fleet for my homebrew 40K chapter, and not to be forced to choose one of the legions. And hell, even chaos in 40K is more different from the Imperium than the sides in HH are from each other.

I really do not understand why they keep focusing on HH. I get that the primarch soap opera has for some bizarre reason appeal for some people, but the setting simply lacks variety to make good background for a wargame.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I mean... the entire BFG range was 1 cruiser sculpt per faction with combinations of 3 weapons modules...

Yeah, but it gets a pass because it was a bajillion years ago I think.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Yeah Imgur just flat out refused to put age verification systems in place so they just turned the UK off

Is there another image hosting you folks can access?

Problem is we can’t even view it. So unless everyone else on the internet can agree to use a different service, it doesn’t help.

In terms of GW actually re-releasing (well, redoing) BFG? I just can’t see many arguments against it.

The base rules remain well regarded. As someone touched on earlier? It’s age of sail in spaaaaaace, where you really need to think about where your ships can and can’t be in turns to come, and of those where it could end up, where you think your opponent is going to be as well.

Even weapon application has strategic considerations above smashing things up. Torpedoes can force your opponent to break their own line, disrupting their forces. Gun Decks over lances can drown a ship in Blast Markers, impeding its effectiveness in turns to come even if you don’t break it that badly.

There are of course now well established competitors on the market. But, with Armada shutdown, there’s no Big Name Competitors. Which means there is a gap in the market to be exploited.

Firestorm Armada was announced yesterday (a bit sus on the timing) for release in 2027 for a Big Name competitor with an existing following on standby.

And it will probably beat whatever GW does in terms of value and model accessibility (their dieselpunk game comes on sprues that typically build any of 4-8 classes of cruiser, plus some escorts, fighter tokens, etc.)

So GW would do well to launch before Firestorm.

If it does end up being Horus Heresy, I really don't understand why they're seemingly so eager to push for that setting. Surely they realize 40k with its variety of factions is something with more potential and would appeal to more customers? It was disappointing enough with them doing Legionnes Imperialis rather than Epic 40k, but to have BFG do the same and miss out on all those awesome 40k ships would be such a huge shame and come across as just strange.

May be to do with their knowledge of sales figures.

They don’t report by system, and never have done. But they do collect that data just by monitoring sales.

It could simply be that they’ve found Heresy set specialist games sell better than 40K ones. Purely speculation of course.

If it was set into 40K, people could still easily play it in HH as well. Reverse is not true.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
May be to do with their knowledge of sales figures.

They don’t report by system, and never have done. But they do collect that data just by monitoring sales.

It could simply be that they’ve found Heresy set specialist games sell better than 40K ones. Purely speculation of course.

We do know that Adeptus titanicus (heresy) sold much better than GW expected.

Then for Aeronautica the most popular kits were space marine, imperial, and some ork aircraft. Meanwhile there's evidence that the other xenos factions did not perform well at all, with Eldar & Tau aircraft appearing in several retailer stock clearance sales. Even GW themselves sold some Aeronautica products discounted on their own site, something they almost never do.

I can definitely see why they'd go the heresy route. If they invest in another 40k setting there is a big risk that (for example) Imperial & Orks are popular, but Eldar, Tau, or Necron ranges don't make enough money.

 xttz wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
May be to do with their knowledge of sales figures.

They don’t report by system, and never have done. But they do collect that data just by monitoring sales.

It could simply be that they’ve found Heresy set specialist games sell better than 40K ones. Purely speculation of course.

We do know that Adeptus titanicus (heresy) sold much better than GW expected.

Then for Aeronautica the most popular kits were space marine, imperial, and some ork aircraft. Meanwhile there's evidence that the other xenos factions did not perform well at all, with Eldar & Tau aircraft appearing in several retailer stock clearance sales. Even GW themselves sold some Aeronautica products discounted on their own site, something they almost never do.

I can definitely see why they'd go the heresy route. If they invest in another 40k setting there is a big risk that (for example) Imperial & Orks are popular, but Eldar, Tau, or Necron ranges don't make enough money.

That's just how those are with popularity even in 40k, of course not every faction sells equally as well. It doesn't mean they sold badly and weren't worth doing.

I can't remember them discounting anything themselves though and i'm quite surprised if they did, what were they?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

That's just how those are with popularity even in 40k, of course not every faction sells equally as well. It doesn't mean they sold badly and weren't worth doing.

The thing is though that selling to a small percentage of 40k customers can still be a lot of people.

However selling to a small percentage of customers for a brand new game system might just be a few hundred, and not enough to recoup the cost of the plastic injection molds that are paid for upfront.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


I can't remember them discounting anything themselves though and i'm quite surprised if they did, what were they?

Some of the AI starter boxes were sold at around 40-50% discount direct from GW in late 2021. I got Wings of Vengeance then, and IIRC they also offered the Tau one too.

 Crimson wrote:

If it was set into 40K, people could still easily play it in HH as well. Reverse is not true.

BFG fluffed that the Chaos ships were mostly M36-M39 designs, while the Imperial ones were M39-M41 and represented a paradigm shift in Imperial tactics. The Vengeance-class Grand Cruiser was designed as a transitional model to show the progression. If GW brings back BFG in any form I'm sure there'll be some retconning, but the whole reason the Chaos and Imperial fleets are visually and functionally different is because they come from different eras. Would Heresy players really be excited to play Chaos v Chaos games, skip daemons and marks of Chaos, and have to homebrew/houserule their own Legion-specific rules? I kinda doubt it. As much as I prefer the setting of 40K, selling a single set of minis to all the Heresy players does seem like the safer option.

I'd be cautiously interested in a BFG reimagining but I imagine it'll be like Legions Imperialis as compared to Epic- bigger models (that don't fit as well on the board), astronomical prices, fiddlier and less elegant rules, and then limited to HH. YMMV but that doesn't particularly excite me, particularly when BFG is currently more accessible and better-supported than even before GW pulled the plug on it.

 catbarf wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

If it was set into 40K, people could still easily play it in HH as well. Reverse is not true.

BFG fluffed that the Chaos ships were mostly M36-M39 designs, while the Imperial ones were M39-M41 and represented a paradigm shift in Imperial tactics. The Vengeance-class Grand Cruiser was designed as a transitional model to show the progression. If GW brings back BFG in any form I'm sure there'll be some retconning, but the whole reason the Chaos and Imperial fleets are visually and functionally different is because they come from different eras. Would Heresy players really be excited to play Chaos v Chaos games, skip daemons and marks of Chaos, and have to homebrew/houserule their own Legion-specific rules? I kinda doubt it. As much as I prefer the setting of 40K, selling a single set of minis to all the Heresy players does seem like the safer option.

I'd be cautiously interested in a BFG reimagining but I imagine it'll be like Legions Imperialis as compared to Epic- bigger models (that don't fit as well on the board), astronomical prices, fiddlier and less elegant rules, and then limited to HH. YMMV.

And then forgotten about after a few years (See AT and AI).

 xttz wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

That's just how those are with popularity even in 40k, of course not every faction sells equally as well. It doesn't mean they sold badly and weren't worth doing.

The thing is though that selling to a small percentage of 40k customers can still be a lot of people.

However selling to a small percentage of customers for a brand new game system might just be a few hundred, and not enough to recoup the cost of the plastic injection molds that are paid for upfront.

I'm fairly sure having a small playerbase is something they'd have considered when making it in the first place though, they aren't going to be making things they expect won't sell.

 catbarf wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

If it was set into 40K, people could still easily play it in HH as well. Reverse is not true.

BFG fluffed that the Chaos ships were mostly M36-M39 designs, while the Imperial ones were M39-M41 and represented a paradigm shift in Imperial tactics. The Vengeance-class Grand Cruiser was designed as a transitional model to show the progression. If GW brings back BFG in any form I'm sure there'll be some retconning, but the whole reason the Chaos and Imperial fleets are visually and functionally different is because they come from different eras. Would Heresy players really be excited to play Chaos v Chaos games, skip daemons and marks of Chaos, and have to homebrew/houserule their own Legion-specific rules? I kinda doubt it. As much as I prefer the setting of 40K, selling a single set of minis to all the Heresy players does seem like the safer option.

I mean you basically outline here why HH fleet game would be boring. Aside from having legion rules, this is exactly what it would be. Boring mirror matches with very limited selection of ships.

 Crimson wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

If it was set into 40K, people could still easily play it in HH as well. Reverse is not true.

BFG fluffed that the Chaos ships were mostly M36-M39 designs, while the Imperial ones were M39-M41 and represented a paradigm shift in Imperial tactics. The Vengeance-class Grand Cruiser was designed as a transitional model to show the progression. If GW brings back BFG in any form I'm sure there'll be some retconning, but the whole reason the Chaos and Imperial fleets are visually and functionally different is because they come from different eras. Would Heresy players really be excited to play Chaos v Chaos games, skip daemons and marks of Chaos, and have to homebrew/houserule their own Legion-specific rules? I kinda doubt it. As much as I prefer the setting of 40K, selling a single set of minis to all the Heresy players does seem like the safer option.

I mean you basically outline here why HH fleet game would be boring. Aside from having legion rules, this is exactly what it would be. Boring mirror matches with very limited selection of ships.

Boring Mirror matches are perfect for Tournament play!

 Crimson wrote:

I mean you basically outline here why HH fleet game would be boring. Aside from having legion rules, this is exactly what it would be. Boring mirror matches with very limited selection of ships.

Apart from being able to explore the gamut of custom designs of 18 legions, dozens of forge worlds and other imperial subfactions, compliance worlds, and DAOT relics, in a time of technological recovery and innovation, before fleet assets were codified and standardized into what is the Imperial Navy of "present day", obviously.

 Crimson wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

If it was set into 40K, people could still easily play it in HH as well. Reverse is not true.

BFG fluffed that the Chaos ships were mostly M36-M39 designs, while the Imperial ones were M39-M41 and represented a paradigm shift in Imperial tactics. The Vengeance-class Grand Cruiser was designed as a transitional model to show the progression. If GW brings back BFG in any form I'm sure there'll be some retconning, but the whole reason the Chaos and Imperial fleets are visually and functionally different is because they come from different eras. Would Heresy players really be excited to play Chaos v Chaos games, skip daemons and marks of Chaos, and have to homebrew/houserule their own Legion-specific rules? I kinda doubt it. As much as I prefer the setting of 40K, selling a single set of minis to all the Heresy players does seem like the safer option.

I mean you basically outline here why HH fleet game would be boring. Aside from having legion rules, this is exactly what it would be. Boring mirror matches with very limited selection of ships.

Well, no, in the same way that HH (28mm) and LI are not equivalent to just playing Marine mirror matches in 40K or Epic while avoiding all the post-Heresy units. Having a larger era-appropriate Imperial roster and setting-specific rules would make it appealing to Heresy fans, while still representing less of an investment than putting all the 40K factions on the tabletop. It's a more limited scope than 40K, but it's still greater scope than just telling Heresy players to use part of a single faction as you're suggesting.

Like I said I'm not particularly excited by the prospect, but considering BFG was originally designed as just Imperials vs Chaos (with Eldar and Orks as limited side factions, both balanced against the core two, not each other), it's not an unreasonable approach.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

I mean you basically outline here why HH fleet game would be boring. Aside from having legion rules, this is exactly what it would be. Boring mirror matches with very limited selection of ships.

Apart from being able to explore the gamut of custom designs of 18 legions, dozens of forge worlds and other imperial subfactions, compliance worlds, and DAOT relics, in a time of technological recovery and innovation, before fleet assets were codified and standardized into what is the Imperial Navy of "present day", obviously.

I seriously doubt they'd go out of their way to do that much of a dive into the niche parts of the setting and come up with all those brand new previously unseen ships.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

I mean you basically outline here why HH fleet game would be boring. Aside from having legion rules, this is exactly what it would be. Boring mirror matches with very limited selection of ships.

Apart from being able to explore the gamut of custom designs of 18 legions, dozens of forge worlds and other imperial subfactions, compliance worlds, and DAOT relics, in a time of technological recovery and innovation, before fleet assets were codified and standardized into what is the Imperial Navy of "present day", obviously.

I seriously doubt they'd go out of their way to do that much of a dive into the niche parts of the setting and come up with all those brand new previously unseen ships.

We just got Saturnine armour for Horus Heresy, so if a fleet-based game does well enough to get to a second starter box, you can bet a new 'was always there all along' battleship will be packed in it.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

I mean you basically outline here why HH fleet game would be boring. Aside from having legion rules, this is exactly what it would be. Boring mirror matches with very limited selection of ships.

Apart from being able to explore the gamut of custom designs of 18 legions, dozens of forge worlds and other imperial subfactions, compliance worlds, and DAOT relics, in a time of technological recovery and innovation, before fleet assets were codified and standardized into what is the Imperial Navy of "present day", obviously.

I seriously doubt they'd go out of their way to do that much of a dive into the niche parts of the setting and come up with all those brand new previously unseen ships.

We just got Saturnine armour for Horus Heresy, so if a fleet-based game does well enough to get to a second starter box, you can bet a new 'was always there all along' battleship will be packed in it.

Of course there would probably be something eventually. They've did a few with Adeptus Titanicus and Legionnes Imperialis already.

But those wouldn't be to any significant extent and certainly wouldn't change that the core of the game would revolve around both sides having similar or the same ships.

In fairness to people mentioning that BFG is healthier being run by the community like Mordheim, Mordheim is made for being run without official GW support, that hobby is utterly based around kitbashing your own warbands and creativity as is it's spiritual successor, Trench Crusade. Official model support and rules from modern GW (Each model has a choice of two heads! But the heads aren't all interchangeable and the arms aren't interchangeable and the legs and torso are fused...) would actually do a lot of harm to that game and lead to fewer people enjoying it and fracture the community.

BFG on the other hand has no real means to kitbash (And at it's scale it's doubtful there'd be much fun to be had anyway) but is instead (Like Epic 40k prior to LI) focused on 3d printing. But that is only good for certain kinds of grognards who wouldn't be bothering with 3d printing their own fleets if they hadn't been inspired by the original BFG product in the first place. It doesn't get many new people into the hobby, whereas Mordheim is more popular than ever. Maybe the video games have got some new people in through even printing the game models but it's pretty niche. So I don't think Mordheim and BFG are comparable in terms of much being lost if GW started to support BFG again, whereas GW supporting Mordheim again would probably wreck the beautiful thing that has grown in the shadow of GW's sun.

And as for the name needing to change unless it's focused on the Gothic sector and black crusades otherwise it couldn't have any Xenos, the setting wasn't a problem for adding Xenos or other settings before, the name is too iconic, you can't change it. Hell, 40k's "present" is now in the 42nd millennium.

I'm also amused that people think only people who miss the Xenos are put off by the HH setting for LI. Some of us Chaos and Imperial players also don't like the new HH aesthetic or setting and Chaos players miss actual Chaos armies. The HH as a setting was destroyed by that terrible novel series and it's become a plot tumour that has done a lot of damage to 40k too by cultivating an audience of people who see the setting as a narrative which GW eventually tried to satisfy before realising exactly why the narrative of 40k can't advance because you'd break it in doing so or else have to cop out and have a resolution that returns things back to how they were more or less. It's a setting!

I do think LI could do with some cool Ork stuff, Ork superheavies and Gargants are cool and characterful at that scale and have some scope for creativity both with painting and modelling. The Ork planes from AI had modular cosmetic bitz. You could extend the HH setting back or forward a little to involve Orks in the Great Crusade or wars after the HH. That goes for the HH 28mm game too. The War of The Beast could be a great expansion to the game, give Ork players some cool new models to kisbash with the 40k line.

If GW want to be conservative with restarting BFG why not set it during the Great Crusade, you could justify Imperial and Ork ships only or maybe some Eldar. But then you'd have to either ditch the iconic gothic cathedral/train/battleship aesthetic (The Chaos ships in BFG are supposedly the way pre-Heresy Imperial ships looked) or explain why the Imperial ships already looked like cathedrals before the Emperor worship cults became the state religion. Albeit the more we see of how GW envisage the HH era these days the more it just looks like 40k anyway so maybe they wouldn't be bothered. Or maybe set it during any one of the many Ork wars the Imperium has had since it went full gothic.

Ultimately I think BFG and Space Hulk returning have more credence to them now than ever before simply because GW's insane release schedule over the last few years has more or less exhausted much of their new release fodder. The Primaris, for example, are more or less done. Unless they pull a New Coke and start deleting the Primaris to replace with them new first born, the 11th starter will apparently have a new tactical squad. When I think of what new releases GW could have to keep up their schedule I just keep thinking about that song from the Simpsons "They'll never stop the Simpsons! Have no fears we've got stories for years! Like, Marge becomes a robot! Maybe Moe gets a cell phone..." It's feeling a lot like 2009-2013 when GW were pumping out Space Marine units for their own sake whether they had a good idea for a new unit or not, hence was birthed the Centurions among others. The new releases must flow... Or maybe they could make model kits that invite modelling and kitbashing to give their lines longevity and greater appeal for bitz resellers to buy kits...

And that new audience of people who they've sold all that 28mm 40k plastic to since 2020 and the 2024 release of SM2 are groaning under their pile of shame, but a new BFG game isn't 28mm, it's nearly complete and not really adding the pile, not really! The key issue will be the price. GW are competing with themselves, with 40k, these games need to be cheaper and make the 40k hobbyist feel like he is getting a bargain to make them jump into it. But LI really doesn't do that, it feels even worse paying those prices than for 40k stuff. (The sad part is they'd sell a ton of those little models to painters if they'd just package them in smaller amounts for cheaper or sold single sprues. It's actually crazy they don't given how easy it is to lose those models) And I don't know why GW can't just accept a little less ludicrous profit in order to make the likes of LI or BFG succeed. It's not like the models could be used as proxies in 40k. They also overestimated the degree people cared about HH as a setting for a wargame compared to 40k, the hardcore audience for those books aren't hobbyists or prefer 40k.

 Crimson wrote:

If it was set into 40K, people could still easily play it in HH as well. Reverse is not true.

Not quite the same thing I’m afraid.

Heresy is peak Imperium. Gloriana Class Battle Cruisers for one (I think there’s only 4 know in the 40K Universe). Potentially massive fleets.

I still stand by my earlier comment that I do fear for effective variety.

In the original BFG, each fleet felt like a very different challenge to fight, and to use. Orks were brawlers, and had potentially devastating, potentially laughable firepower turn to turn. Eldar needed you to really lean into the movement, and one on one had nothing like the raw firepower of their adversaries. Tau were tricky to catch off guard as their dorsal weapons could be turned to augment either broadside. Imperial Fleets were more brutal than Chaos, relying on early torpedo volleys to control enemy manoeuvres, whilst you closed in for short ranged firefights and even ramming. Necrons were simply filth.

And I genuinely worry that a Heresy set BFG may be hobbling itself from the get go in that regard.

Also with the Badab War ships (and first draft of the Tau ones from Taros), the FW design team just didn't seem to get how BFG worked.

They made their even "bigger than battleships" big ships way too tough in a way that just didn't work with how things like Ordnance or the balance of firepower to shields.

The bigger issue with HH locking their games is its less obvious knock on effects for the non imperial products.

The more gw make it clear that anything not imperial is a second class product, by clear divisions of support across their products from novels to novelty items, the more it affects player choice.

Existing players may get disillusioned with their army choice, or swap armies. New players may see the clear favoritism and plethora of options and opportunities and decide not to spend their money on dead end factions.

All this does is chip away at the perceived value of non imperial factions, which chips away at consumer confidence about those factions.

Maybe gw is happy that their actions don't sell more non imperial factions. Maybe they want to just sell imperial. If I was running a range of product lines and they were all supposedly integral to the business plan of successfully selling an IP setting, the deliberately not using the same methods that sell marines for other factions would certainly be the way I'd do it.

Normal business would see less popular products and see how the strategies of bolter porn, games and mini saturation have worked for marines and use those to boost other lines. Or they'd cut their losses and drop it entirely.

Gw are sitting in the middle because they know that non imperials are vital for the health of the game ecosystem but they also would rather short term profit from selling another marine box then an concerted effort to bring other factions up to the same or similar level.

Sometime around 2007-2008 my FLGS had a bunch of guys get into BFG. Also around that time I was REALLY into the Battlestar Galactica TV series (reboot).

I scrounged up a fleet of BSG ships in the BFG scale. Never got the chance to play though, as life happens and I started to have to work on game nights. Might be funny to have some BFG/ Star Wars Armada/ Star Trek Fleet Acton crossover games.

As an aside, I think folks are slightly misremembering (or oversimplifying) the BFG lore. The fluff on the differences between Imperium and Chaos designs overlaps and contradicts itself in places - the Grand Cruiser fluff is where it implies the 40k chaos ships were the original imperial designs but that is contradicted in a number of other places.

The blue book is explicit that the Emperor class battleship design (for instance) predates the great crusade. Similarly the chaos destroyer is stated to be a later version to the Imperial Cobra.

Considering the way the Imperium and technology usually works, it wouldn't be much of a retcon to say even the "new" (in BFG fluff) imperial designs were actually around during the great crusade / Heresy and subsequently lost then later "rediscovered ", etc...

Which is to say, a game set in the Heresy could very easily consist of a blend of ship designs including both the traditional BFG Imperial designs and Chaos mixed in together in the same fleet in theory.

Yeah The info implied that it was mostly the aesthetic that changed, the underlying technology didn't.

The ramming prows were added to the ship designs later. The emperor battleship chassis was older than the great crusade, but the gubbins the imperium stick on later was new.

They often talk about advanced plasma guns, or drives, but from the outside you can't tell.

So the concept of a hard line between the HH era and modern imperial ship is a lot less obvious than it appears