The Case Against Allowing Forge World at Tournaments

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**kronk**

Doesn't the Ork Lifta Wagon have Apoc Hull points? That would make it a super heavy, right?

Contemptor is probably Elite Choice for Chaos Space Marines. I'm very surprised that it isn't listed on the entry.

**Hulksmash**

There are a few in a couple of books. Misprints likely but they don't have a noted force org slot. I'm at work or I'd go thru two of the main ones (don't have a copy of IA: Aueronatica)

**Breng77**

No the lifta wagon has battle wagon stats, and is stamped 40k approved.

I'm sure you are right about the contemptor, but it is not listed so far as I can see.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking a Aeronautica I did not see any in there it is primarily IA:apoc second ed.

**Blackmoor**

skkipper wrote:
40k isn't balanced as it stands adding forgeworld will not make it worse.

I keep hearing this and yet there is no proof of it.

In the major tournaments so far there have been a wide variety of armies showing up and doing well. Even the feared necron flyer list of doom only won the first GT level event of 6th edition, and then nothing after that.

Allies has greatly leveled the playing field so that everyone can make a competitive army.

Just like all of the claims that Tyranids are bad and 6th edition has screwed them over while all the while they have done well at tournaments.

**Vaktathi**

Blackmoor wrote:
skkipper wrote:
40k isn't balanced as it stands adding forgeworld will not make it worse.

I keep hearing this and yet there is no proof of it.

In the major tournaments so far there have been a wide variety of armies showing up and doing well. Even the feared necron flyer list of doom only won the first GT level event of 6th edition, and then nothing after that.

Allies has greatly leveled the playing field so that everyone can make a competitive army.

Just like all of the claims that Tyranids are bad and 6th edition has screwed them over while all the while they have done well at tournaments.

Allies in and of themselves are very controversial, they aren't by any means level or balanced (given that IG can ally with *almost* anyone and have 7 Battle Brothers while Tyranids can't ally with anyone...). While Necron flyers haven't necessarily taken 1st at every event, they've placed very strongly at most of them, and at several have been placed against each other early (taking a lot of them out of the running quickly, same thing happened with SW Long Fang spam lists and mechanized IG armies in 5th).

**vhwolf**

The balance in 6th edition 40k is that everyone can take a bunch of broken stuff.

**Blackmoor**

Vaktathi wrote:

Allies in and of themselves are very controversial, they aren't by any means level or balanced (given that IG can ally with *almost* anyone and have 7 Battle Brothers while Tyranids can't ally with anyone...).

So what you are saying can be applied to Forge World since IG gets a huge amount of units, while Tyranids get almost nothing. So adding Forge World would make it even more unbalanced.

And how are allies controversial? Allies are actually in the Warhammer 40k rule book which is something that you can’t say about Forge World..

While Necron flyers haven't necessarily taken 1st at every event, they've placed very strongly at most of them

Which ones? I would like some examples.

and at several have been placed against each other early

That happens from time to time with any army. At Comikazi Con in the last game on table #2 there was a Eldar/Dark Eldar vs Eldar/Dark Eldar match up and only one can win, and the other gets kicked down in the standings. So just because they play each other is not relevant since most players who place high at the end of a tournaments have played against a similar army as their own along the way.

**skkipper**

balanced? so you are saying you can win adepticon championship with a nid list?

**Janthkin**

skkipper wrote:
balanced? so you are saying you can win adepticon championship with a nid list?

Might be doable, on Adepticon terrain. IMHO, Tyranids are the most terrain-dependent army in the game right now.

**Mannahnin**

Tyranid psychic spam is a brutal army against anything other than SW or Eldar (or armies investing in those for their allies). Mike Brandt threw together one of those armies in two weeks for BFS and won the Silver bracket, going 5/1.

When you start seeing T9 MCs, FNP/It Will Not Die MCs, big Gargoyle units with FNP & Telekinetic Dome, and gaunts inflicting Instant Death on Wraiths in close combat, you learn to fear (or at least respect) the bugs.

**Blackmoor**

skkipper wrote:
balanced? so you are saying you can win adepticon championship with a nid list?

Yes, I am saying that they can win the Adepticon Championship.

I think they have just as good a chance to win as any army...unless they allow Forge World in and in that case I think IG have the best chance at winning.

**LValx**

Mannahnin wrote:
Tyranid psychic spam is a brutal army against anything other than SW or Eldar (or armies investing in those for their allies). Mike Brandt threw together one of those armies in two weeks for BFS and won the Silver bracket, going 5/1.

When you start seeing T9 MCs, FNP/It Will Not Die MCs, big Gargoyle units with FNP & Telekinetic Dome, and gaunts inflicting Instant Death on Wraiths in close combat, you learn to fear (or at least respect) the bugs.

This right here. Though I would even go as far as to say that even most SW lists have an extremely difficult match-up. Nid's excel at killing infantry lists and the fact of the matter is even with a 4+ nullify the Nid player will still be getting off half of his endurances/iron arms/enfeebles/etc. The psychic choir is for real. It is extremely difficult to beat.

**Janthkin**

Mannahnin wrote:
Tyranid psychic spam is a brutal army against anything other than SW or Eldar (or armies investing in those for their allies). Mike Brandt threw together one of those armies in two weeks for BFS and won the Silver bracket, going 5/1.

When you start seeing T9 MCs, FNP/It Will Not Die MCs, big Gargoyle units with FNP & Telekinetic Dome, and gaunts inflicting Instant Death on Wraiths in close combat, you learn to fear (or at least respect) the bugs.

In addition to matchup dependence, though, you're also very dice-dependent. I've taken 11 rolls at the Biomancy table before, and not generated an Iron Arm or an Enfeeble. It's almost like rolling for Siren, but with less dependable outcomes.

But yes - T9 Tervigons with Crushing Claws are lots of fun.

**rigeld2**

Janthkin wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:
Tyranid psychic spam is a brutal army against anything other than SW or Eldar (or armies investing in those for their allies). Mike Brandt threw together one of those armies in two weeks for BFS and won the Silver bracket, going 5/1.

When you start seeing T9 MCs, FNP/It Will Not Die MCs, big Gargoyle units with FNP & Telekinetic Dome, and gaunts inflicting Instant Death on Wraiths in close combat, you learn to fear (or at least respect) the bugs.
In addition to matchup dependence, though, you're also very dice-dependent. I've taken 11 rolls at the Biomancy table before, and not generated an Iron Arm or an Enfeeble. It's almost like rolling for Siren, but with less dependable outcomes.

Me too. Makes me a sad panda.

But yes - T9 Tervigons with Crushing Claws are lots of fun.

Very much so.

**MVBrandt**

I'll actually back up that Nids are fine right now. My single loss at BFS was as much my fault as anyone's (I did something absent-minded, won't repeat here, but can be seen at whiskey40k bfs recap), coupled w/ playing a very good opponent.

Even at BFS, winning silver, placing 2nd competitively, 3rd or 4th overall, and beating some EXCELLENT opponents in the process ... I played against psychic defense in every game, including 2 Runes of Warding and 1 Njal. Nids are much better now than they were ... and when you roll 25 times on the psychic table, you get plenty of endurance, enfeeble, and iron arm :p

Anywho, this isn't entirely on topic, but YES the game is fairly well balanced. FW inclusion does hurt armies like Nids even more, though you know good players will do their best regardless. It's not like the complete change of the game with 5th --> 6th caused all the top players to suddenly start losing.

I'm torn on whether FW is a good idea, but competitiveness isn't why ... top players do well almost regardless of the circumstances. They aren't the ones we should be worried about.

**12thRonin**

31 pages and nobody has brought up the Adepticon Gladiator and the abortion of the Reaver/Arvus combo (which took a single tournament to show it was broken).

**kronk**

12thRonin wrote:
31 pages and nobody has brought up the Adepticon Gladiator and the abortion of the Reaver/Arvus combo (which took a single tournament to show it was broken).

As no one is advocating the use of Titans in this thread at standard tournaments, why would that have been brought up?

You need a tournament to show that titans are awesome?

Go on!

**12thRonin**

Since it's a prime example of tricks that can be pulled with rules that aren't common knowledge? It wasn't the titan was awesome, it was the Lighter not only couldn't be assaulted, but it prevented the titan from being so as well.

**kronk**

Not really. You're talking about this story, I assume:

So basically, if you don't know what the Arvus Lighter is, don't feel bad.

It's a "worthless" fluffy model kit produced by Forgeworld. basically you're looking at a shuttle, which counts as a flyer, has a low points cost, and occupies slightly more space than a rhino does on the tabletop.

What ALL of the BOLS guys did, is take an Arvus Lighter, a Reaver Titan, some form of other Anti Aircraft flyer(Imperial Thunderbolts all around) and then filled out with Guardsmen and daemon killing Inquisitors with Mystics.

Now, flyers can NEVER be assaulted(except in one case with an Eldar formation, but formations are not allowed in Gladiator!). Also, because it's a vehicle the space occupied by the flyer on the table top can technically NOT be moved through by other models(this is a literal interpretation of the rules, apparently Yakface's/DakkaFAQ didn't bother taking Intention into account here, like they did with everything else in their stupid FAQ, that by the way, was used as Canon at Adepticon this year).

Anyhow, so you've got a vehicle that can move 36" per turn, can only be hit by shooting on a 6(unless you have AA mounts, which is usually not super common even in Gladiator), cannot be assaulted, and cannot be moved through.

Take this situation: you are playing Chaos and have Ang'groth the giant bumkicking Khorne daemon. You summon him in and he cannot assault that turn. I park an arvus lighter directly in your charge path to my Reaver titan. Ang'groth now has to waste charge movement going around the stupid shuttle, and he certainly cannot destroy it in assault since well, even though Ang'groth has wings, he cannot charge the stupid shuttle.

Meanwhile, my Reaver Titan drops 8 STR D templates on top of Angroth. Since they're all 5" or larger templates, the chances of any of them scattering off of Ang'groths immense model are slim to none. Also, each one that hits will deal D3 wounds to a model with 8 wounds total, most likely killing it in one turn.

Suddenly the only way to deal with the Reaver is to have one of your own, and hope that you get to shoot first(even then, two Reavers shooting each other with those templates at more than 12" apart are not likely to get a kill in one turn).

I didn't really think that is was possible to really cheese out Gladiator, but BOLS sure found the one way to prove me wrong IMHO.

Classic example of putting all your eggs in one basket. It's the chaos player's fault for not bringing enough shooty to take down a flier when everyone knew that fliers would be there. Further, that's a silly tournament anyway, and meant to be over the top.

So, no. No one has brought that up. However, if you've bothered to read the 31 pages, you'll see that unfamiliarity with the FW rules has been brought up time and again. I can't believe that you read all 31 pages and didn't pick up on that.

**12thRonin**

I have and can't believe it's gone on this long. As I said, I'm surprised it hadn't come up.

I don't give two gaks one way or the other which way it goes.

**kronk**

12thRonin wrote:
I have and can't believe it's gone on this long.

100% agreement there!

12thRonin wrote:

I don't give two gaks one way or the other which way it goes.

100% agreement there, too!

I may have come off a bit rude in that last post. Sorry for that.

**skkipper**

finaly got a response from TO. the November event will not have Forgeworld since it is the first of 6th but future events will include FW rules with the 40k stamp.

**Cpt Stubbs**

I know most on here will disagree with me on this and maybe it has been stated before in the thread (I've followed off and on) but either way my two cents worth.

This is a game where we are trying to grow the player base and encourage more people to play in tournament settings as it helps the hobby. As a non hardcore gamer I can say from my point of view FW does the exact opposite. It's one thing to get my a$$ handed to me by a super competitive build that someone built out of a regular codex but it is another to have this happen with a bunch of units that I've never been exposed to or even knew existed.

As a regular member of the "beer and pretzels" club I can assure you FW inclusion leads to resentment and an unwillingness to return. In my mind if you are trying to expand your player base this is NOT a good thing. I won't rehash the reasons that it is so frustrating as we have 30+ pages of them already but will point out one more thing. There are people in this thread who have very good reasons why they don't like FW in tourneys and for an average or regular player these are magnified X10. Furthermore many in this thread who don't want them are very very good at this game and have much more ability and knowledge than any average player.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Cpt Stubbs wrote:

As a regular member of the "beer and pretzels" club I can assure you FW inclusion leads to resentment and an unwillingness to return. In my mind if you are trying to expand your player base this is NOT a good thing. I won't rehash the reasons that it is so frustrating as we have 30+ pages of them already but will point out one more thing. There are people in this thread who have very good reasons why they don't like FW in tourneys and for an average or regular player these are magnified X10. Furthermore many in this thread who don't want them are very very good at this game and have much more ability and knowledge than any average player.

Not to be an ass, but everything you just said applies to the pro-FW crowd as well.

**Cpt Stubbs**

Except for the fact that most pro-FW people are already in the game. My point is that this bars entry for new players or makes the relatively new run from the tournament scene and the game.

**lazarian**

Cpt Stubbs wrote:
Except for the fact that most pro-FW people are already in the game. My point is that this bars entry for new players or makes the relatively new run from the tournament scene and the game.

Sitting across from a $1000 guard army is a bar to entry. Your simply trying to restate the 'money' argument. A new player is probably demoralized by the best painter in your group as well, or the best player or the best "insert whatever entry here". Getting clubbed by an experienced player will make them run, not people who have nice toys. If anything (since your argument is entirely without citation or a shred of support might as well make a bold assertion myself) seeing everything the hobby has to offer should instill the gamut of emotions; envy, emulation, desire, ect. Nicely painted armies, players who can table you in less than 3 turns, players with far more models than you ever will have, ect, will all run off new players. Claiming FW is the only factor here is a bit misleading. Its the upper part of the hobby from a price standpoint, however so is IG and Orks from a money standpoint.

Again if cost is a factor then everyone should be playing Draigowing.

**Vaktathi**

As lazarian noted, we already have major "access" issues across current, non-FW units and armies being hugely imbalanced in $$$ to acquire in the first place, and non-FW units are rapidly approaching FW cost in many areas, or are there already.

Hell, army books now cost more than core rulebooks did with thrice the page count 5 years ago while Imperial Armour books are now the same price as the core rulebook. 5 GW Finecast Sternguard are more expensive than 5 FW Heresy era armored marines. FW variant Leman Russ tanks are only 5 GBP more than a basic GW Leman Russ tank. The cost differential is closing *fast*.

Nobody seems to care that it costs twice as much to play an IG or Ork army as it does to play a Space Marine army, but you bring a FW Land Raider variant and all of a sudden cost is an issue...

**RiTides**

Adding in more lack-of-familiarity issues does not solve current ones.

**Adam LongWalker**

Cpt Stubbs wrote:
I know most on here will disagree with me on this and maybe it has been stated before in the thread (I've followed off and on) but either way my two cents worth.

This is a game where we are trying to grow the player base and encourage more people to play in tournament settings as it helps the hobby. As a non hardcore gamer I can say from my point of view FW does the exact opposite. It's one thing to get my a$$ handed to me by a super competitive build that someone built out of a regular codex but it is another to have this happen with a bunch of units that I've never been exposed to or even knew existed.

As a regular member of the "beer and pretzels" club I can assure you FW inclusion leads to resentment and an unwillingness to return. In my mind if you are trying to expand your player base this is NOT a good thing. I won't rehash the reasons that it is so frustrating as we have 30+ pages of them already but will point out one more thing. There are people in this thread who have very good reasons why they don't like FW in tourneys and for an average or regular player these are magnified X10. Furthermore many in this thread who don't want them are very very good at this game and have much more ability and knowledge than any average player.

Well I agree with you as I have posted similar comments previously. I currently do not allow as a TO, FW as they are written in their own books. Count as I'm fine. I'm also listening on how other TO's are handling this situation as well. Perhaps in a few years things will be ironed out on how FW could be implemented, and hopefully I'll be doing that in my tournaments.

**jdjamesdean@mail.com**

Adam LongWalker wrote:
Cpt Stubbs wrote:
I know most on here will disagree with me on this and maybe it has been stated before in the thread (I've followed off and on) but either way my two cents worth.

This is a game where we are trying to grow the player base and encourage more people to play in tournament settings as it helps the hobby. As a non hardcore gamer I can say from my point of view FW does the exact opposite. It's one thing to get my a$$ handed to me by a super competitive build that someone built out of a regular codex but it is another to have this happen with a bunch of units that I've never been exposed to or even knew existed.

As a regular member of the "beer and pretzels" club I can assure you FW inclusion leads to resentment and an unwillingness to return. In my mind if you are trying to expand your player base this is NOT a good thing. I won't rehash the reasons that it is so frustrating as we have 30+ pages of them already but will point out one more thing. There are people in this thread who have very good reasons why they don't like FW in tourneys and for an average or regular player these are magnified X10. Furthermore many in this thread who don't want them are very very good at this game and have much more ability and knowledge than any average player.

Well I agree with you as I have posted similar comments previously. I currently do not allow as a TO, FW as they are written in their own books. Count as I'm fine. I'm also listening on how other TO's are handling this situation as well. Perhaps in a few years things will be ironed out on how FW could be implemented, and hopefully I'll be doing that in my tournaments.

We steer clear of FW models for tourneys. Brings up more problems than anything, than you always get the guy there but my IA book says I can. TO replies in kind, show me where in the BGB/codex/faq you're allowed to. On our Tourney flyers it has a list of acceptable codexes and what you need to bring to play. It's always one of the same troublesome players who just wants to bring in some super cheese