What does the future hold for the Imperial Guard?

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**Kanluwen**

Arbitrator wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Knockagh wrote:
Firstly I really really want them to be called IMPERIAL GUARD again. Stick Astra whatever we're the emperors light doesn't shine. That name change is a reminder of dark days at GW. They don't need to make a big deal out of it just slip it back in gradually.

Try reading any of the books before griping about this.

"Astra Militarum" is only in the Codex a few times, with them referred to as "Imperial Guard" everywhere else in the book.

All the more reason to change it back then.

So we're going to change "Adeptus Astartes" back to "Space Marines"?

It's not changing back. It doesn't need changing back. If you're so upset over it, then tear the cover off your book or whatever.

As it stands?
You're not going to make fetch happen, Gretchen. The name's here, it's staying. Get over it.

**Baldeagle91**

Kanluwen wrote:
Arbitrator wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Knockagh wrote:
Firstly I really really want them to be called IMPERIAL GUARD again. Stick Astra whatever we're the emperors light doesn't shine. That name change is a reminder of dark days at GW. They don't need to make a big deal out of it just slip it back in gradually.

Try reading any of the books before griping about this.

"Astra Militarum" is only in the Codex a few times, with them referred to as "Imperial Guard" everywhere else in the book.

All the more reason to change it back then.

So we're going to change "Adeptus Astartes" back to "Space Marines"?

It's not changing back. It doesn't need changing back. If you're so upset over it, then tear the cover off your book or whatever.

As it stands?
You're not going to make fetch happen, Gretchen. The name's here, it's staying. Get over it.

I don't know anyone, not even the staff at Lenton Lane who use the term Astra Militarum.... nor the term Adeptus Astartes..... Keeping in mind Adeptus Astartes has been in the fluff since what.... the 3rd edition? Maybe 2nd?

Everyone just uses the term space marines and the only people I've seen use Astra Militarum are new people to the hobby who need to ask who the imperial guard are.

The name change is so stupid mostly because the Imperial Guard got a pseudo latin name that means 'Star Soldiers'.... while the Imperial Navy.... is still called the Imperial Navy. Actually a mate of mine brought up the point that Astra Militarum would suit the Imperial Navy more seeing they are actually soldiers... who fight in space

TLDR Version: Screw you geedubs, why try to fix something that wasn't broke. I bet 100% that the name change wouldn't off happened under GW's current leadership.

**Kanluwen**

Oh no, it certainly would have. It just would have been likely done with something like the fact that every single Loyalist Marine book that's sold right now has "Adeptus Astartes" on the cover above the 'army' name.

Don't believe me? Go look at Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels.

Or look at the two Mechanicus books. Both say "Adeptus Mechanicus" over the army names.

It would probably have been "Astra Militarum: Imperial Guard", just like Tempestus probably would have been "Astra Militarum: Militarum Tempestus".

But both of those books were done before we started seeing that change.

**master of ordinance**

Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

**Future War Cultist**

Well I use a lot of bloodreavers, who have average bravery and are even squishier than guardsmen, and the Battleshock system doesn't do them that much harm. There's ways to work around it.

**Flanker**

master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

But don't blobs get Ld bonuses to their rolls? Like for every 10 models, add +1 to the roll or something? I don't know, I thought I read that on somebody's post.

**JohnHwangDD**

master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

No, because we won't take blobs. The opponent will kill a squad and that'll be it.

**Kanluwen**

Flanker wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

But don't blobs get Ld bonuses to their rolls? Like for every 10 models, add +1 to the roll or something? I don't know, I thought I read that on somebody's post.

For every 10 models alive during the Battleshock phase, you get +1 to your Bravery.

A blob of 200 models that loses 70 models would have a Bravery bonus of +13.
On something like Bloodreavers, which are Bravery 5(which is about 'average' for the human stuff)? You need a way to Ignore Battleshock Tests(For Bloodreavers, it's a Bloodsecrator planting his standard and giving something like 18" of "NOPE!" to Battleshock Tests) in order to not lose models if you're fielding something akin to a "blob" of low armor, high volume models.

You would be, in that scenario, Bravery 18(Bravery 5+13 for the 130 models remaining alive).
You lost 70 models.
You roll your D6 and add the 70 to it.
You're looking at anywhere from 53 to 58 more models being removed, since you take the result and subtract your Bravery value from it.

**KommissarKiln**

I won't pretend to be an expert on AoS, but it looks like this, among other rules, clearly gives small elite armies a tremendous advantage over horde armies. Given such rules that will likely form the basis of 8th, and the release of more and more giant pointsink primarchs, and the continuation of the power creep in general, looks like IG, Orks, and Nids better hurry up and finish digging their graves before 8th drops.

It's like the scale is returning to a skirmish size game, except that skirmish is composed of absolutely massive expensive constructs, mechs, and rampaging demigods instead of regular soldiers.

**Kanluwen**

KommissarKiln wrote:
I won't pretend to be an expert on AoS, but it looks like this, among other rules, clearly gives small elite armies a tremendous advantage over horde armies. Given such rules that will likely form the basis of 8th, and the release of more and more giant pointsink primarchs, and the continuation of the power creep in general, looks like IG, Orks, and Nids better hurry up and finish digging their graves before 8th drops.

Not so fast...

This was one of the charges leveled at the AoS starter set with Stormcast versus Khorne.

Stormcast are multi-wound, fairly significant save models. The "basic" Stormcast is 2 Wounds with a save of a 4+.
Khorne Bloodbound range the gamut from the Khorgorath(the gribbly skull monster) with 8 Wounds and a 4+ Save to 1W Bloodreavers with no save at all.
When you lose Bloodreavers, you lose them quickly.

"But Kan that just sounds boring! I'll be scooping people up left and right from Battleshock tests!".
Nope. That's why they have a unit called a "Bloodsecrator". That's the Battle Standard Bearer equivalent. He grants an 18 inch aura allowing any unit with "Khorne" to not have to take Battleshock tests and gain an additional attack.

So let's say you're in a combat with Bloodreavers versus Stormcast Liberators or Prosecutors. Both are 2W with 4+ Save. In a combat with Retributors? 3W with a 4+ Save.
You lose something like 6 Bloodreavers to the combat, the Stormcast player loses a model.
If he fails his Battleshock tests?
He flatout loses another model.

Net result? You lost some expendable chaff units, he lost an elite Big Tasty.

**Jbz`**

KommissarKiln wrote:
I won't pretend to be an expert on AoS, but it looks like this, among other rules, clearly gives small elite armies a tremendous advantage over horde armies. Given such rules that will likely form the basis of 8th, and the release of more and more giant pointsink primarchs, and the continuation of the power creep in general, looks like IG, Orks, and Nids better hurry up and finish digging their graves before 8th drops.

It's like the scale is returning to a skirmish size game, except that skirmish is composed of absolutely massive expensive constructs, mechs, and rampaging demigods instead of regular soldiers.

On the face of it maybe, but at the moment we have no idea the affects of morale boosting stuff will have.
Commissars could simply shoot one guy in the head to have you ignore it completely,
Ork Nobs with boss poles could "break some heads" to ignore it too (i.e they'd probably not change in that regard)

I mean, how often now do you see anyone using things like Company/Regimental standards and such?
They could go from never used and virtually useless to a Super-awesome and helpful effect in the new system, and people would have to actually make a decision to use them or get another fancy gun
(Instead of always going for the gun)

**Future War Cultist**

Jbz` wrote:
On the face of it maybe, but at the moment we have no idea the affects of morale boosting stuff will have.
Commissars could simply shoot one guy in the head to have you ignore it completely,
Ork Nobs with boss poles could "break some heads" to ignore it too (i.e they'd probably not change in that regard)

I mean, how often now do you see anyone using things like Company/Regimental standards and such?
They could go from never used and virtually useless to a Super-awesome and helpful effect in the new system, and people would have to actually make a decision to use them or get another fancy gun
(Instead of always going for the gun)

This is freaky! I just said the exact same thing in another thread!

Future War Cultist wrote:
I'm late to the discussion again, but if it's true that 40k is being Sigmarised then I'm very happy.

About morale. Battleshock doesn't hurt hoards. It actually works out very well for them. Your bravery is increased by 1 for every ten models in the unit. Units also have banners to affect battleshock and characters can grant abilities to help out too. Case in point, Bloodbound Bloodreavers only have a Bravery of 5 and no save, so on paper they're vulnerable to Battleshock. However, because of their icon bearer and the amount I take in a unit, they actually average out at Bravery 7-8 for me. On average, I only lose a couple of Bloodreavers a turn to Battleshock, if I even lose any at all. And that is only when they aren't under the effects of the Bloodsecrator's Portal Of Skulls. When they are under it's effects, they don't take Battleshock tests at all.

This can all be easily replicated in 40k. Imperial Guard infantry blobs and Ork Mobs would probably get a leadership/bravery stat of 7-10 after the size and other bonuses are taking into account. And in the case of the Guard, the Commissar will probably have an ability to inflict mortal wounds (these are automatic wounds with no saves) on the unit in exchange for taking no battleshock. And I can easily imagine that an Ork bosspole could function exactly like an Orruk Skull Icon, which grants a 6+ save against fleeing.

Someone also mentioned this idea that I quite like; 40k's shooting being resolved like combat in AoS. Player who's turn it is picks one unit to shoot with, then other player picks a unit to shoot with, then the previous player picks another unit to shoot with and so on and so forth, representing a realistic gunfight with both sides dropping. Suppressing abilities can prevent a unit from shooting.

Chargers going first is also a step in the right direction. Now charging will be worth it for all those low initiative armies.

**KommissarKiln**

I will admit that you guys make some good points; we theoretically have a lot of stuff to mitigate nasty morale issues. As per my "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" stance, I can see GW has many options available to make IG and other horde style armies quite viable, if not competitive. Between Ld based characters and standards, the latter of which could really use improvement, IG could potentially transition very well into 8th.

...But will GW do that?

On a side note, does AoS have anything that really compares to vehicles in 40k? How do things from that angle? I've heard because AoS Monsters become weaker per wound suffered, the disparity between MCs and vehicles should shrink considerably, so maybe that could be a good sign?

There are just so many mixed messages between "escalating the power creep" and "slowing or even reversing the power creep," I'm just not sure what to make of things. But I'll try to dial back on the naysaying.

**Lord Kragan**

KommissarKiln wrote:
I will admit that you guys make some good points; we theoretically have a lot of stuff to mitigate nasty morale issues. As per my "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" stance, I can see GW has many options available to make IG and other horde style armies quite viable, if not competitive. Between Ld based characters and standards, the latter of which could really use improvement, IG could potentially transition very well into 8th.

...But will GW do that?

On a side note, does AoS have anything that really compares to vehicles in 40k? How do things from that angle? I've heard because AoS Monsters become weaker per wound suffered, the disparity between MCs and vehicles should shrink considerably, so maybe that could be a good sign?

There are just so many mixed messages between "escalating the power creep" and "slowing or even reversing the power creep," I'm just not sure what to make of things. But I'll try to dial back on the naysaying.

Steam tanks and other artificial contraptions in AoS become weaker as damage piles-up, same as monsters. In fact, AoS doesn't "really" make a distinction between monster and warmachine but their roles: big warmachines and beasts are classified as behemoths (and hardcapped) while long range platforms or monsters count as artillery.

There's plenty of abilities that allow to ignore widespread battleshock: Freeguilds (which would be the IG equivalent) ignore battleshock on 1s (2s too with a formation). Dispossed have standards that halve casualties from battleshock. So you can assume that if they introduce battleshock they'll give the guard some means to dealing with it.

**Flanker**

Everybody's jumping to a lot of conclusions here. The rules are changing, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be the same as AoS, by any means. How about we wait until the new ed drops before we start saying the end is nigh for IG?

**master of ordinance**

Flanker wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Back on toopic, the morale system in AoS would be the death knell of the Guard. Our crappy LD coupled with our laughable squishiness = death.

But don't blobs get Ld bonuses to their rolls? Like for every 10 models, add +1 to the roll or something? I don't know, I thought I read that on somebody's post.

Trust me, as a Skaven player those +1's matter not. Unless you have a character whom can make your units immune to Battleshock you will bleed models. And if you do you can guarantee they will be the first to be sniped.

**Dakka Flakka Flame**

In addition to the +1 morale for every 10, many units get bonuses making them stronger in numbers. For instance, with the Free Peoples (closest IG equivalent) their crossbowmen get to shoot twice if they have twenty or more models, their handgunners get +1 to hit if they have 20 or more models, their archers get to re-roll 1s and 2s to hit at 20 or more models and re-roll all failed hits at 30 models. Their State Troops (spear, halberdiers, swordsmen) get +1 to hit at 20, +2 to hit at 30 and +4 to hit at 40.

So a lot of "horde" type units get stronger as you add to them. More elite units (like Greatswords) get no such bonuses.

I haven't played AoS yet. I've been dusting off my WHFB Orcs & Goblins (now Orruks & Grots) army and reading up on the rules. It seems like it's a bit of a tradeoff where you get much more powerful units by running them in big hordes while at the same time you can do a good job of capturing multiple objectives with MSU. I'm thinking I'm going to form my Orcs with choppas and my Goblins with spears into big units while running my arrer boyz as MSU.

**master of ordinance**

Now if only there was a way to bring such units in numbers that actually mattered without artificially handicapping yourself....

**NivlacSupreme**

Once again we're talking about fixes that only help horde armies

**JohnHwangDD**

NivlacSupreme wrote:
Once again we're talking about fixes that only help horde armies

To be fair, horde needs help more than non-horde.

But it's bad that if IG need to be played as horde blobs.

**ZebioLizard2**

JohnHwangDD wrote:
NivlacSupreme wrote:
Once again we're talking about fixes that only help horde armies

To be fair, horde needs help more than non-horde.

But it's bad that if IG need to be played as horde blobs.

I think the overall hope is that Platoons will finally be more useful with morale and that hopeful chance that IG vehicles and elites will be good as well.

**martin74**

A discussion about this came up the other night with some friends of mine. Understand, most of us have given up on GW in general, but, still each of us has a Guard army. One has Mordians, one has Steel Legion, and I have Catachans.

Discussion went to Regiment Doctrines. What would have what. Instead of just broad Doctrines because what army you have, we went to the idea of the older SM HQ choices. Certain HQ choices would let you unlock certain options.

Steel Legion HQ choice: Chimeras for infantry squads would be free.

Mordian HQ choice: Each infantry squad gains stuborn.

Catachan HQ choice: all non vehicles gain Stealth, move through cover.

Just ideas to run with.

**JohnHwangDD**

Whether Doctrines are embodied as Characters or some other mechanic, is less important than their return in the first place. Also, Stubborn is kinda weak compared to "Free" Chimeras. No reason why the Catachans vehicles shouldn't get Dozer Blades and Camo Nets for "free" - is there some notion that those options are too powerful to be free in a Catachan force?

**Hawky**

martin74 wrote:

Steel Legion HQ choice: Chimeras for infantry squads would be free.

Never, ever. Free stuff is cancer of 40k.
I would give them Pinning or twinlinked after they disembark. Or Chimeras give 4+ or 5+ cover to their own squad, as Aroured Shield formation gives...

**CplPunishment**

Hawky wrote:
martin74 wrote:

Steel Legion HQ choice: Chimeras for infantry squads would be free.

Never, ever. Free stuff is cancer of 40k.
I would give them Pinning or twinlinked after they disembark. Or Chimeras give 4+ or 5+ cover to their own squad, as Aroured Shield formation gives...

My ideas for steel legion:
Maybe their chimeras could ignore crew shaken/stunned results on a 4+
Steel legion would count as stationary after disembarking for purposes of shooting.
Preferred enemy: Orks
If lasgun variants are introduced, they would have their Armageddon pattern Carbines: 18" S3 AP- Assault 1; 12" S3 AP- Assault 2

**martin74**

These were not solid ideas. Just brainstorming.

**CplPunishment**

martin74 wrote:
These were not solid ideas. Just brainstorming.

I've been doing a lot of brainstorming myself, but with the next edition rumored to flip 40k on it's head, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm wasting my time. Everything we once took for granted is now up in the air.

**master of ordinance**

My group is considering just chaining 7th down and kicking 8th out.

**morgoth**

Here's what the future holds for the Imperial Guard: more pointless wishlisting threads with players acting like they're expert game designers, like GW doesn't care about them despite them having the biggest miniature range in all of 40K, and that's about it.

8th is very likely going to be awesome and a very good thing for armies which have been sidelined "recently", including the IG, just wait and see...

**CplPunishment**

master of ordinance wrote:
My group is considering just chaining 7th down and kicking 8th out.

If they screw it up enough, I'll probably play my own homebrew hybrid of 5th and 7th. We'll see.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
.

8th is very likely going to be awesome and a very good thing for armies which have been sidelined "recently", including the IG, just wait and see...

Bahahaha
We all know it's going to become HEROHAMMER 40k: Age of PRIMARCHS. Nids and Orks could feasibly get better in such a setting, but the IG could potentially become sidelined or neglected. At this point we can only speculate, but our prospects don't look good with Cadia being annihilated and every gathering storm release shunning the Imperial Guard.