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Issue is also that you have to test points costs at extremes, currently you can fit 3 wraithknights, 2 farseer and a autaurch at 2000pts. If you drop it down to mid 400 points 450ie, would taking 4 in 2000pts break it? it may be balanced alone in its points, which is fantastic, but does the points cost taken at extremes work? just something to consider when balancing.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So what's the general consensus on Fire Prisms now, worth taking? Linked Fire definitely has a lot of potential, how is it in practice? Do they compare favorably to Dark Reapers as Heavy Support?

If you take them as a pair and can keep them alive as such then they are great. 1CP for rerolls to hit and wound for 2 units is pretty good and allows you to focus Guide/Doom elsewhere. Make sure you do not need to redeploy them though as you really need to be moving below half rate as shooting twice is the key to success.

They can reliable put 12-13 points of damage on any unit that does not have an invulnerable save so simply pick a vehicle/monster a turn and delete it. They compare well to Reapers in terms of damage output per point but against slightly different targets. Reapers excel at murdering elite infantry and lighter tanks. Fire Prisms will delete heavily armoured targets without problems.

Focussed (not Lance) is the optimum firing mode against large targets (unless GW introduce T9 units in future).

brando87 wrote:
Issue is also that you have to test points costs at extremes, currently you can fit 3 wraithknights, 2 farseer and a autaurch at 2000pts. If you drop it down to mid 400 points 450ie, would taking 4 in 2000pts break it? it may be balanced alone in its points, which is fantastic, but does the points cost taken at extremes work? just something to consider when balancing.

You can do this now with Baneblade variants which are more durable, much shootier, and still very good in CC with a stratagem. Like, compare a Shadowsword to a Wraithknight with cannons. The Shadowsword is 100 points cheaper, has much better add-on options, has two more wounds, shoots 2 or 3 times better with its main gun compared to the wraithcannons, and hits about as well in CC vs big targets.

 Galef wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
The Wraithknight is a classic example of GW's difficulty in balancing units. If something is too strong in one edition, they don't just tone it down, they nerf it into oblivion in the next edition.

Bingo. GW seems to believe in the law of averages. The WK was too cheap for an entire edition, so it needs to be over costed for AT LEAST a whole edition before they'll price it appropriately
Sadly by the time that happens, the WK sales will be so low that GW will have forgotten about them and do nothing.

-

lol the Falcon is still paying for its crimes against the Imperium in 4th Edition.

Please don't nerf Spectres. They're good units, and compete with the better units and aspect warriors in the codex, and that's a good place for them. They're in a solid spot right now that makes them notable but not dominant. They can do a lot, but also pay a lot for a single-wound model.

If anything, Spiders could use a reduction in points (or an extra shot on their guns).

Spiders could use something like increased D if target has more wounds than 1 (except Vehicles). For now monofilament weaponry is too similar to shuriken one.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Spiders could use something like increased D if target has more wounds than 1 (except Vehicles). For now monofilament weaponry is too similar to shuriken one.

Agreed, something to differentiate would be nice. I remember when deathspinners used to be template, a flamer like profile would be cool also...

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:
Interested to see what points changes there might be to Shadow Spectres in Chapter Approved. A really vital unit for eldar to deal with hordes in the more competitive scene, but without a doubt under costed currently

I doubt we'll see any changes to them in Chapter approved since they are Forgeworld and Forge hasn't been very active with erratas after their index.

FW is being included, so I expect to see them in there. I just hope not as a point hike, because right now they seem about right. They are fragile, mobile and hard to hit and have decent, short-range firepower. Their current ppm cost seems spot on.

That's good to know been a bit day late for chapter approved updates, wishing for some nice changes for the Wraithseer then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spartacus wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
Spiders could use something like increased D if target has more wounds than 1 (except Vehicles). For now monofilament weaponry is too similar to shuriken one.

Agreed, something to differentiate would be nice. I remember when deathspinners used to be template, a flamer like profile would be cool also...

Spiders was the original antihorde Eldar unit.
I still hope they change the Deathspinner rules to be a pseudo Heavy flamer someday.

Would be nice to see them get something specifically built for that purpose. Perhaps make them Assault X/R12"/S6/AP-1/D1, with something like 1 shot for every 5 models in a unit? That would definitely help a lot in not only making them better for more than just grabbing objectives, but also differentiate more them in function from Spectres.

 admironheart wrote:
2 points.

You DO NOT have to have biel-tan for a re roll for your warlock/spiritseer....you do have the option of making them your Warlord and getting the 1 per round reroll

Next....I tried to use Biel-tan for my Dire Avenger list but since my Autarch will be nearby ......what a waste +1 LD is the net result....So I changed it all to get all my footdar as ulthwe and then took a Supreme detachment to get my rangers and Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc.

Keeps it simple to explain to my opponent if I don't have 3 different traits as well. Not to mention the eye rolls while you try to explain what units have what

Transports must be the same craftworld as the units they are transporting

 Korlandril wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
2 points.

You DO NOT have to have biel-tan for a re roll for your warlock/spiritseer....you do have the option of making them your Warlord and getting the 1 per round reroll

Next....I tried to use Biel-tan for my Dire Avenger list but since my Autarch will be nearby ......what a waste +1 LD is the net result....So I changed it all to get all my footdar as ulthwe and then took a Supreme detachment to get my rangers and Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc.

Keeps it simple to explain to my opponent if I don't have 3 different traits as well. Not to mention the eye rolls while you try to explain what units have what

Transports must be the same craftworld as the units they are transporting

Only if you want to start the unit inside of the transport, i believe?

If you deploy outside of the transport, i thought you could then embark onto the transport at a later point in the battle, as long as you shared a common keyword - in this case Aeldari/Asuryani.

Kdash wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
2 points.

You DO NOT have to have biel-tan for a re roll for your warlock/spiritseer....you do have the option of making them your Warlord and getting the 1 per round reroll

Next....I tried to use Biel-tan for my Dire Avenger list but since my Autarch will be nearby ......what a waste +1 LD is the net result....So I changed it all to get all my footdar as ulthwe and then took a Supreme detachment to get my rangers and Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc.

Keeps it simple to explain to my opponent if I don't have 3 different traits as well. Not to mention the eye rolls while you try to explain what units have what

Transports must be the same craftworld as the units they are transporting

Only if you want to start the unit inside of the transport, i believe?

If you deploy outside of the transport, i thought you could then embark onto the transport at a later point in the battle, as long as you shared a common keyword - in this case Aeldari/Asuryani.

That was the case during 7th ed. after the main FAQ.
In 8th ed., each transport explicitly says which units it's able to transport. Wave serpents can only transport <CRAFTWORLD> units. When you take a wave serpent, you have to choose the craftworld it belongs to, and the name of that craftworld replaces <CRAFTWORLD> everywhere on the WS's datasheet. So if you choose your WS to be Alaitoc, the transport section of its datasheet becomes "A WS can transport 12 phoenix lords or Alaitoc infantry". So it can only transport units from the same craftworld.

fresus wrote:

Kdash wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
2 points.

You DO NOT have to have biel-tan for a re roll for your warlock/spiritseer....you do have the option of making them your Warlord and getting the 1 per round reroll

Next....I tried to use Biel-tan for my Dire Avenger list but since my Autarch will be nearby ......what a waste +1 LD is the net result....So I changed it all to get all my footdar as ulthwe and then took a Supreme detachment to get my rangers and Wave Serpents to benefit from Alaitoc.

Keeps it simple to explain to my opponent if I don't have 3 different traits as well. Not to mention the eye rolls while you try to explain what units have what

Transports must be the same craftworld as the units they are transporting

Only if you want to start the unit inside of the transport, i believe?

If you deploy outside of the transport, i thought you could then embark onto the transport at a later point in the battle, as long as you shared a common keyword - in this case Aeldari/Asuryani.

That was the case during 7th ed. after the main FAQ.
In 8th ed., each transport explicitly says which units it's able to transport. Wave serpents can only transport <CRAFTWORLD> units. When you take a wave serpent, you have to choose the craftworld it belongs to, and the name of that craftworld replaces <CRAFTWORLD> everywhere on the WS's datasheet. So if you choose your WS to be Alaitoc, the transport section of its datasheet becomes "A WS can transport 12 phoenix lords or Alaitoc infantry". So it can only transport units from the same craftworld.

Ah, good call... Mixing things up again

Wave Serpents and Falcons only allow friendly <Craftworld> units to embark upon them, meaning the units has to have the same craftworld as the transport.

As good as Shadow Spectres are right now, I think I should give some fair warning, it looks like the molds are starting to give out and are in need of replacing. I ended up buying some Spectres recently, and the casting quality on them is absolute garbage, some of the absolute worst I've ever gotten from FW, finecast levels of crap (just ended up cutting a bit of the mold off a model...). If I didn't need to get them done for a tournament next month, I'd be petitioning for a refund or replacement, but I'm kind of screwed right now.

Very strongly advising against buying Shadow Spectres until FW gets their gak together. They should be embarrassed to ship out crap like this.

To be clear they don't have to be in the same detachment - just the same declared craftworld.

 Fafnir wrote:
As good as Shadow Spectres are right now, I think I should give some fair warning, it looks like the molds are starting to give out and are in need of replacing. I ended up buying some Spectres recently, and the casting quality on them is absolute garbage, some of the absolute worst I've ever gotten from FW, finecast levels of crap (just ended up cutting a bit of the mold off a model...). If I didn't need to get them done for a tournament next month, I'd be petitioning for a refund or replacement, but I'm kind of screwed right now.

Very strongly advising against buying Shadow Spectres until FW gets their gak together. They should be embarrassed to ship out crap like this.

Second this.

 Fafnir wrote:
As good as Shadow Spectres are right now, I think I should give some fair warning, it looks like the molds are starting to give out and are in need of replacing. I ended up buying some Spectres recently, and the casting quality on them is absolute garbage, some of the absolute worst I've ever gotten from FW, finecast levels of crap (just ended up cutting a bit of the mold off a model...). If I didn't need to get them done for a tournament next month, I'd be petitioning for a refund or replacement, but I'm kind of screwed right now.

Very strongly advising against buying Shadow Spectres until FW gets their gak together. They should be embarrassed to ship out crap like this.

different product, i too have been burnt by them. So i don';t really buy FW anymore.

Any chance Wraithknight will get a points drop in Chapter Approved?

FarseerReborn wrote:
Any chance Wraithknight will get a points drop in Chapter Approved?

They had their chance with the codex, at this point I believe the Wraithknight is exactly where GW want it to be this edition.

It's been OP for two editions, so according to GW logic it has to suck for a while. Just like the joke about the statistician standing with one foot in a freezer and the other on hot coals, the average would be reasonable.

FarseerReborn wrote:
Any chance Wraithknight will get a points drop in Chapter Approved?

I wish! But with the new codex released so recently, I doubt it.

The most recent codex we know of which is getting updated is Death Guard. I think that after that was Guard and then Eldar? It's hard to believe that there's been enough time for them to have incorporated any feedback on the Eldar codex from actual players, but it's entirely possible that they'll have realized that there are still issues on their own. The early codices made some changes, after all, and that was entirely down to pre-8th playtesting. Chapter Approved benefits from at least another month of seeing how index 8th actually played out in the real world.

So per some illicit screen shots on FB - it appears (a bit grainy) that Shadow Spectres are going up nearly 10 PPM. RIP Spectres.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
So per some illicit screen shots on FB - it appears (a bit grainy) that Shadow Spectres are going up nearly 10 PPM. RIP Spectres.

Not nearly, exactly 10.

They are done being useful in any capacity.

Nothing else much for Eldar of any flavor. Harlequin CC weapons got a bit cheaper. Dark Eldar Court beasts got a lot cheaper. Corsairs got a lot cheaper -- now it's 9 points for a Corsair with a shardcarbine.

Dionysodorus wrote:
The most recent codex we know of which is getting updated is Death Guard. I think that after that was Guard and then Eldar? It's hard to believe that there's been enough time for them to have incorporated any feedback on the Eldar codex from actual players, but it's entirely possible that they'll have realized that there are still issues on their own. The early codices made some changes, after all, and that was entirely down to pre-8th playtesting. Chapter Approved benefits from at least another month of seeing how index 8th actually played out in the real world.

I don't know hwo to explain this to you, but there is a pro USA and EU(england included) community who have been playing iwth all the codexs (everything from space marines to daemons) since march or so. So they ahve gotten massive amounts of feed back.

mmimzie wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
As good as Shadow Spectres are right now, I think I should give some fair warning, it looks like the molds are starting to give out and are in need of replacing. I ended up buying some Spectres recently, and the casting quality on them is absolute garbage, some of the absolute worst I've ever gotten from FW, finecast levels of crap (just ended up cutting a bit of the mold off a model...). If I didn't need to get them done for a tournament next month, I'd be petitioning for a refund or replacement, but I'm kind of screwed right now.

Very strongly advising against buying Shadow Spectres until FW gets their gak together. They should be embarrassed to ship out crap like this.

different product, i too have been burnt by them. So i don';t really buy FW anymore.

Everything else that I've ever gotten from FW has been solid to very good, save for a missing foot on a Quartermaster that was very easily fixed. I'm really sad and surprised to get something this bad.

That said, if those leaks are true, Shadow Spectres are completely dead as units anyway. At 23 points per man, they were good, solid units, that managed to shine with some of the better units in the codex. At 24-27 points per man, they'd end up being costly, but still generally useful enough to justify their use in more specialized contexts, albeit not as a primary unit easily tossed into a list. At 33 points per man, they're ridiculously overpriced garbage. There's no way a point increase that massive for them is justified.


EDIT: So, new point of discussion building off that; now that Spectres are bad, I guess our only anti-horde options are Shining Spears.


Also, no point reduction for the Avatar either? Come on GW, what the hell are you smoking?

 Fafnir wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
As good as Shadow Spectres are right now, I think I should give some fair warning, it looks like the molds are starting to give out and are in need of replacing. I ended up buying some Spectres recently, and the casting quality on them is absolute garbage, some of the absolute worst I've ever gotten from FW, finecast levels of crap (just ended up cutting a bit of the mold off a model...). If I didn't need to get them done for a tournament next month, I'd be petitioning for a refund or replacement, but I'm kind of screwed right now.

Very strongly advising against buying Shadow Spectres until FW gets their gak together. They should be embarrassed to ship out crap like this.

different product, i too have been burnt by them. So i don';t really buy FW anymore.

Everything else that I've ever gotten from FW has been solid to very good, save for a missing foot on a Quartermaster that was very easily fixed. I'm really sad and surprised to get something this bad.

That said, if those leaks are true, Shadow Spectres are completely dead as units anyway. At 23 points per man, they were good, solid units, that managed to shine with some of the better units in the codex. At 24-27 points per man, they'd end up being costly, but still generally useful enough to justify their use in more specialized contexts, albeit not as a primary unit easily tossed into a list. At 33 points per man, they're ridiculously overpriced garbage. There's no way a point increase that massive for them is justified.


EDIT: So, new point of discussion building off that; now that Spectres are bad, I guess our only anti-horde options are Shining Spears.


Also, no point reduction for the Avatar either? Come on GW, what the hell are you smoking?

Spear are good, but getting more than two units (one saim-hann one quickend) you can only reliably bring two units that do all thier damage. From thier they fall off a bit.

Scorps in saim-hann aren't too bad as they drop shoot pistols, and get a decent charge. Making the charge they compete well with shining spears.It's just making that charge.

Similar howling banshees can make reliable turn 1 charges from a waveserpent at the line, and do so even more reliably in saim-hann thanks to rerolling. They also compete well for killing GEQ rivallying guadians.

Swooping hawks/Dire averengers do pretty well as our ranged option. Thier turn 1 burst the same as spectres at their current point level. With swooping hawks coming out on top of both in terms of turn 1 burst if you factor in the grenade, and swooping hawks benefit from movement tricks. Dire avengers can benefit from biel-tan.

The drop guardian squad is about as strong as spears when they hit, and better in biel-tan or Ulthwe. ! unit can put enough wound into multiple unit's to cause good morale.

Hemlock i stand by being mandatory in eldar that -2LD is too important, while it won't help with horde nids. It helps with everything else, and horde nids die fast enough once you take out the big ones.



In my book drop guardians and swooping hawks take the cake. I like them because they are hard to stop, and put out good damage. The guardians can also not webway strike in letting you save the CP in games where you dont particularly need them. While swooping hawks fit in all craft worlds. While i think at least one squad of spears in a must take, and if you can swing saim-hann or maybe biel tan 2 or more squads will get you there.

From there the hemlock will provide allowing you less efficient weapons add to those morale checks.

Ok. Screwed Shadow Spectres? No biggie, I always hated them. Now they don't make Warp Spiders seem redundant, and we don't have to read: get Shadow Spectres! in each list thread.

On the other hand, no change to the WK. Well, I was prepared for that.

Without Shadow Spectres, it really is between hawks and shining spears. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

If you look purely against hordes, hawks are the better with more range, model count, grenades, deep strike, and slightly more damage.

Spears have versatility, with small units of 3, the exarch deals consistent damage against big things. They also go through not just light infantry, but also marines.

My money is still on the spears being the better bet, but only in units of 3 and multiple of them. What is everyone elses thoughts?